The Search for Greener Grass - with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

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  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have a special episode because we are actually having two guests join us, both of whom are repeat favorites of the show. So welcome back to Yael and Adam. Great to have you back. Today, we're gonna be talking about the concept of selecting opportunities, opportunity evaluation, in terms of our careers and this concept that the grass is always greener and maybe challenging that a bit.

  So just to introduce our two guests, Yael Iffergan is the owner and founder of InfiniTalent Partners, LLC, which is a full service recruitment and career coaching firm. She has been in the recruiting field for almost 20 years and has guided professionals at all levels of their career to successful change and has helped companies to hire top talent at all levels. She has a reputation for setting realistic expectations and for providing thoughtful counsel. She holds a bachelor's from UT Austin, which, fellow Longhorn there, and is a certified senior professional in human resources. So you can revisit Yael's previous episode where we talked about some similar topics in terms of career changes and pivots. We also have Adam Forbes joining us. And Adam has also been on our podcast previously talking about, again, some career changes and how to make the escape from the corporate world. So Adam worked for 25 years, building a corporate career and marketing to other businesses and governments. He left that path in 2020, with a goal to try lots of different things including writing, coaching, consulting and working with startups. Now his time is primarily spent running a startup accelerator program for a large corporate and also writing a book and coaching people on how to leave their corporate jobs safely and successfully. Adam's book is out on July 2 of this year. So it's coming up quickly. Welcome back, folks. So happy to have you back.

  Adam Forbes 2:27

  Thank you.

  Yael Iffergan 2:28

  Thanks for having us.

  Adam Forbes 2:29

  Great to be here.

  Erica D'Eramo 2:30

  Yeah. So this kind of topic we initially were going to talk about, we I had approached you both to talk about the concept of taking big leaps, and how to prepare for that, how to get your mindset, right in order to take big leaps. But as we were discussing this topic, I noticed that really, the common theme that was coming out was more around, you know, viewing potential opportunities, as always being better than our current situation, like the concept that the grass is always greener. So I want to know your thoughts for each of you. What do you consider this kind of like bias? Like, tell me a little bit about where you've seen this come through? And how you've seen it show up with either yourself or your clients that you've worked with? And I guess Yael, why don't you start?

  Yael Iffergan 3:17

  Sure, um, you know, I think it's funny that you say, Where have you seen it, either with yourself or with others? I'll start with myself, because I think that informs a lot of the coaching that I end up doing, because I have been through this process myself, you know, my last few jobs I found in I would tell people, I ended up in another bad job. And at some point, you really have to look in the mirror, and ask yourself, if you might be the common denominator here and be the problem. And I think for me, I was, you know, I don't fit. And you have to really look inside to figure out what the real core issue is. Is it really always the people around you? Or is it maybe you, right, and having to go through that process? And asking yourself some really hard questions that you might not want the answers to. So, you know, when I started coaching engagement, I always ask a lot of really tough questions. Right? Why do you think you want to leave this opportunity? And is there a way to salvage your current opportunity? Because there are some really redeeming factors there. So it's, it's a journey for sure. It is not always as linear as you might think, like, I'm ready to go, let's go. And then that's in end of story and grass is greener. So?

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that touches on a lot of common themes that come up through the coaching that I do with people who maybe even are intending to stay, but are sort of feeling dissatisfied. And certainly think about their options. Adam, how about you? Like, where have you seen some of these themes come through in the work that you've done? And you've done extensive interviews with people who are at these career change points or have gone undergone career changes?

  Adam Forbes 5:19

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like, like, everyone, I suppose we all have this feeling that life must be better somewhere else. And when we're when we're not happy in our lives, at least. So I think it's inevitable that we imagine the world to be better somewhere else, particularly if where we're at is not where we think we should be. I mean, I think for myself, I, I've always had an even as a kid, I remember my parents say to me, Oh, God, you always want to do the next thing, you know, and I see it in my, my son now. So I think maybe there's something in the Forbes genes that always thinks life is better somewhere else than it is right here. But in people I work with, I think it's also really common, and she's saying this book to like, maybe 100 People for the, for the book to it's really common, I think. But I think the people that are successful and leaving, they take a much more realistic view, I think they recognize that life cannot be that much better somewhere else. So at least 10 per that. You know, that sense that it must be just temporary, temporary, by some a reality check or two that the questions whether it really is, you know, and of course, what you need to do is you need to go and do some tests, really, you know, because I think I think when we're not very happy, it's it's very easy to let our imaginations run wild. And assume everybody, everybody looks happier than us, don't they when we're not happy? Maybe they are? Maybe they're not. And, you know, you've got to go and really dig around a bit first, rather than just let that bias take hold.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:09

  Yeah, right, that there's that confirmation bias that starts to set in where if we, if we feel we need to alleviate a pain point, we're kind of looking anywhere to find that alleviation. That's why snake oil salesmen are so successful in you know, especially for intractable issue, if it was right, like really challenging issues where people start to feel hopeless, then it's easy to kind of look to some offering that somebody is putting out there and just see the good stuff in it and not maybe see the bad stuff. So what I'm when in the work that both of you have done, because I feel like in different ways you both sort of help people take that clear eyed view. I guess before we get into some of the tactics to mitigate that potential bias, like what are some red flags that you would say are an indication of maybe this like grass is greener thinking? Or what are some symptoms that might have you delve a little deeper just to make sure that you're getting to the core of the issue? Adam, do you have any thoughts?

  Adam Forbes 8:11

  Yeah, I mean, the thing, the thing that was always there for me, and maybe it's because it's sort of almost the opposite of the corporate career is having my own business. So I always wanted to have my own business, even as a kid. Definitely. When I started in a corporate life, and almost straight away, I would just, I looked at anybody that done that with real envy. And but yeah, I'd never did anything about it. You know, and I think so that's the first red flag that people are talking about things without having any experience and having a while and you start to hear the sort of idealized language, holding people on pedestals, putting people on pedestals, because that seemed to be living that life, and not recognizing maybe some of the downsides of that life only seeing the positives, the upsides, you know, so I would, you know, and Nick, sort of caricatures as well, you know, so, you know, I would look at these people like Elon Musk and Max. And sort of like, Oh, they've got it right. I've got it wrong. I mean, like, ridiculous, of course. But I think you know, when you aren't very happy in something, you do some really odd choices, odd observations. Odd. You have odd ideas in your head. And yeah, I'd look at some of these people going back a bit admittedly, and just think God, they'd gone they, they'd gone down a more interesting path than I've gone. Maybe I can get back on it if I do something different. So this sort of idealized language stare, sort of caricaturing people that you want to be Yeah, talking in a like a fantasy way that's not necessarily from realistic to the life you'll lead. Uh, you know, like for me? Oh, yeah, just gonna start my own business with three kids and mortgage just gonna, like, give it all up and go and start building something. And by the way, you don't even know what you're gonna build. Yeah. Okay, there's a warning bell. Yeah, it's actually more to do with what you're leaving, actually, it's more suitable you're leaving and really where you're heading? Right? It's actually the grass is not very good here. But then then then, then it's magic to amazing somewhere else.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:30

  Yes.

  Yael Iffergan 10:31

  Absolutely. I totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:33

  That rings true for me. Yeah.

  Yael Iffergan 10:34

  Yeah, you know, and when Adam talks about the fantasy, you know, that's what's a huge red flag for me, right? Like, I had an engagement recently with an executive who was who intrinsically had a problem with the construct of corporate America. And I said, Man, that's not gonna change when you go to a different job. Right? Like, that's, that's not how this works, you need to come to terms with the construct, or you need to start to make plans to go elsewhere, like a completely a complete left turn, because the construct is not going to be better elsewhere, right? Like, you can't change the way that leadership works. In an organization, that's just what it is, right. And, you know, he, for example, had expectations about what an organization should look like, and how people should behave. And I was like, you don't have any control over that, unless it's your company. And until it's your company, you got to get on the bandwagon, or, you know, figure something else out, you're gonna make yourself miserable. So I totally agree with Adam, it's when people start talking about these fantasy things, right? Or these idealistic ideas about what it should be and how it should be. And I said, Listen, you know, there is no such thing as perfection, you're never going to find an organization that has all of these things, because they're made up of people. And until the people report to you, you know, you have to figure out how to work within an organization. So totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 12:28

  Yeah. I think this, this part about the focus on the current dissatisfaction is a really big clue around, you know, that, that we're not setting ourselves up for success, if we're just trying to escape this element, and like, potentially jump from the, you know, from the frying pan into the fire, if we haven't painted a picture of what it is that we do want. So what would an ideal situation look like? And then, you know, like, how important are each of those elements, because as Yael says, like, we are not going to get all of them, you're, you're going to have to make some trade offs there. But which trade offs you want to make will be different depending on a) how sick of the current paradigm you are, right? Like maybe you could deal with really rigid structures for a while, but you need a break from that. So you want something a little more like fluid or expansive or a flat, flatter structure. Okay, so you could dip your toe in that for a while. But I think over time, and based on where we're coming from, like, what is important to us changes quite a bit. So what have you seen there?

  Adam Forbes 13:41

  I think that what you just said, that made me just think it's about being much more granular, isn't it? I think, we get a bit really, we get seduced by the grass being greener, because we we actually don't we keep it at this high level, this level here,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:56

  Like an airbrushed

  Adam Forbes 13:58

  Yeah, and so, of course, it's perfect, because there's no detail beneath any of it. And whereas we've got all the detail here, we're carrying all that baggage of how awful it is. And so yeah, but what you need to do, of course, is you need to treat both things fairly, you need to be honest about the things that are working for you here and are not working for you here. And equally some of the upsides as well as the risks of going to something different and I think as soon as you start breaking these things down often that's why we don't move to the to the grass, the new grass, the green book, grass, because we see through it and realize actually, it comes with some risk or it comes with some costs that we have specked out, you know, whatever he articulated described, and I think that's, that's that's why those things do stay in that sort of fantasy world because they haven't really got any legs to the just that just that their dreams.

  Yael Iffergan 14:53

  Well, I was just going to say you know, when you inventory, what is actually important to you, and then But it in the context of what is possible, right? Like, it is not possible to tell your boss how to do their job, not if you want to be successful in any way, shape or form, right? If you if as your inventory, you determine, for example, that it drives you bananas, so much so that it is affecting your mental health to work for somebody that you don't respect, you really got to weigh those things out, because you don't have control over the person that you report to. Right. So you have to be able to inventory those things. And either have a plan to identify them, when you're going in through an interview process, or figure out how to work with them, or how to say, I can't do this altogether, right, I have to have a plan for a completely different situation. So you know, inventorying not just the hard and fast things, right? Like comp and commute location, and industry, right? really identifying the things that are important to you, the things you have enjoyed the things you have not enjoyed the things you can deal with the things you cannot deal with, and really start to put those things together. So that you can screen an opportunity, whether that opportunity is entrepreneurship or not. Right. And, and, and reconciling all of those things with where you are at this point in your life, right? To Adams point like, oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah, you usually quit your job with three kids and a mortgage and just see what happens, right? Like, really being measured is important. And taking a a thoughtful approach is a good way to go.

  Erica D'Eramo 16:56

  I think I'm hearing like a couple themes come through here. So there's the one element of what we see the the amount of data we can get about the realistic opportunity is somewhat limited until you're in it right and you've both spoken a little bit. And we can explore more later about how do you get more data there? How do you fill in those gaps, because seeing the LinkedIn feed for that company, or seeing the Instagram posts for those employees or whatever, those are highly filtered, very narrow views of everything, that's good. And not everything is bad, or even people who have made large changes and say started their own business. They're not showing you, you know, the Friday night at 11pm, when they're sweating to figure out how to pay the contractor or whatever, right? Like, you're just seeing the best version of that. So there's that piece around, like accurate data. But I love the framing around the inventory. Because you know, coming from a risk management background, I've talked about like how I evaluated my opportunities, and it was in a spreadsheet, it was literally forced ranking what was most important to me. And so when everybody around me was saying like, "Oh, but it's so risky. It's so financially risky." It's like, yes, it there is financial risk here. But what are the non quantitative risks that are also here, and exist for every single opportunity I look at including the opportunity to stay where I'm at. And those risks included things like feeling fulfilled, having agency over my how I spend my time, feeling like I did the thing I was meant to do on this earth before I die, right? Like some of those things are very impactful. And the probabilities on them were really quite stark, right, if you look at it from that perspective, but anytime we have a heuristic or a bias, right, like the way our brain is trying to make these shortcuts for us, it can be really helpful to put some process in place to at least highlight where the faulty thinking is, so we can properly address it. And you've both mentioned, you know, the tendency to want to stay where we're at sometimes. So it's funny, we're having this conversation, because it's the flip of what we've talked about in the past, which is how do you know when it's time to leave, right? Like and get out? There is a human nature that says, you know, it's safer, where you're at, we don't like change, we know what the risks are here. And we're kind of talking about, like the flip side of that bias here. So when is it that you just want to get out and you're willing to like ignore all the other risks? So yeah, that heuristic works both ways.

  Yael Iffergan 19:49

  I was just gonna say, you know, I think that there's there's also something to be said for going on the journey, right, making some mistakes. Thinking you like a and then realizing that you hate a. Right. And, and exploring those things and being open to the feedback. Right? And, and that and that's how we grow and mature and do all these things. And listen, I am I am always supportive of people pursuing and prioritizing their mental health, right, if they end up in a situation that is not healthy for them that they cannot deal with, you know, the solution is not toughing it out. Right. So, you know, I am a huge proponent of that, but just making sure that you're taking a measured approach, right, that you're really thinking through those things. Because sometimes the risks are great, right? You know, it's one thing to go out on your own. But sometimes just leaving a company is a huge risk, right, you jump out of the frying pan into the fire, and really trying to manage some of that. So, you know, there's there's a lot at play. And I think if you take a thoughtful approach, and really think through what's important, really go on that journey, really ask yourself some tough questions, and ask other people tough questions, too. It can yield some really fantastic things.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:21

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 21:21

  Yeah, one of these, one of the women, I was actually the beginning of the year, who wanted to leave her corporate job. She was pretty senior. And she'd been there for quite a few years. She was really, really miserable. Worked, maybe for two or three months. And I actually gave her the, like a PDF version of the book before it was finished. Because she was I wanted her and she wanted as well, it's good for me to, to work through the exercises in the book. And after, I don't know, we went back and forth quite a few times, stay go stay go, they don't. And then then she said she was going to stay. And I think, but she was staying with, with more intent. You know, she was staying because she recognized she had done that in through the exercises. She'd done that kind of inventory of what was good about the work, she was more objective from it, she was less emotional, she'd written it down, and it was still there. The next day, she still agreed with what was there on a good day, and they're on a bad day, you know, and she and she saw it for what it was she was much more objective about how she how she saw the benefits, and the costs or risks of staying and decided that overall, on balance, it was better. But what she also did through that process was she saw that she could leave, she felt agency she felt choice over staying or going out she decided to so she we we actually didn't do that much exploration of the greener grass so much. That is more of what I'm saying. And I think people have said that to me, since that I've read read early copies of the book have said that it made them want to stay, which is like was on the one hand was like a bit of a oh god, I've really screwed this up, then if people read a book called Corporate escapology, and then stay put, but actually, of course, it doesn't really matter. I mean, I don't, I'm not, I'm not being paid on how many people leave their jobs, I actually just want to make make, make people not feel trapped. And if they

  Erica D'Eramo 23:29

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 23:30

  If they don't feel trapped, because they see these, the benefits, and they feel choice, and they feel that they could go if they want to, then great, I think part of the reason is, life is so sort of incremental, and we're just constantly moving forward, not really reflecting much back. And so we find ourselves unhappy, we don't really even know why it might only be two or three things. And if we explored those two or three things and found different ways to solve them, or whatever problem solve them or tackle them differently, or, or take different decisions with them or have those conversations with people that person hands on for whatever, you know, that is maybe a more short term solution to the problem that fits much better with their needs as a family and, you know, in your financial situation there is so sometimes it's not about leaving sometimes it's more about just like working out, can I make some adjustments to what I've got today and then you don't even need that green grass. You make it green where you are.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:37

  There's there's that element that you mentioned that is so hugely impactful that I think a lot of people miss and it's the feeling of choice, that feeling of agency of not being trapped and I think a lot of people forget that they they really are choosing to go to work and I'm and when I mention that to people sometimes like you don't have to do this job you don't have to show up and they say, Well, I have to, because I have to put food on the table like, Hey, I'm not saying that quitting wouldn't cause major terrible things to happen right now, if you were to just walk away today. But that is a rational, informed decision made out of agency that you are not giving yourself credit for in terms of like choosing to show up, because it aligns with your value of feeding your family of being a caretaker of whatever that is, it is still values-aligned. And I think reminding people sometimes that this, you are opting in every day, and you're doing this because that's the strategy you've set. You can make different decisions and take different, you know, costs and benefits into account. But this is the one that you've chosen right now to maximize, you know, the value. And I think people become, you know, the corporate world sometimes just makes you forget that you have that option to walk away sometimes and just reminding people like you or nobody is dragging you into work, like, bound and chained and forcing you, so...

  Yael Iffergan 26:15

  Yeah. But you know, to that end, I also think it's important that people work every day, to expand their option opportunities, if you will, right, I do the work. So that if you are faced with this position, that you're miserable at your job, and you want to go somewhere else, that you actually have the toolbox in place to make that happen. Right. So things like networking, you know, one of the things that I do is teach people how to network for the purpose of their careers, right, rather than other things. So you know, understanding other jobs, meeting people that have potential to be impactful to you having a circle that is supportive of your professional endeavors, right. So if you're sitting in your little bubble all the time, you're really minimizing your options, right? And if you decide to take this job anymore, I'm gonna quit. And then you're faced with, you know, conducting a job search via LinkedIn, it's going to be real painful. So yeah, really understanding that it takes a village as kitschy as that sounds right. And no, we're not talking about raising kids. But it really does take a village to move everything forward at every point in your life. It's your family, it's your friends, it's your tennis buddies, it's your church colleagues, it is, you know, all of these things that have the potential to be impactful, understanding their value to you the doors, they can potentially open, the journey that they can help you through, you know, really putting those things in place, so that when you need them, they are there for you, right, and they don't feel used or abused, right? Like, oh, you're only calling me because you need something now, you know, really nurturing a network long term, so that you have these things in place when you need them, right. So, you know, I always say companies should never treat people with options badly. Because they can just run for the hills. And so it's your job as an individual, to make sure that you put the infrastructure in place so that you have options.

  Erica D'Eramo 28:45

  Also, building a network while you're happy and fulfilled is a lot easier than building a network when you're miserable, right? Like, we've met those people where it's like, Hi, my name is so and so I hate my job. I feel miserable. Like it's, it's, it is tough, but I get like, I feel a lot of empathy for that. But I think it's a good point that, you know, don't wait to build your support network, and your professional network until you're sad and you want to leave, like do it while the grass is green.

  Adam Forbes 29:17

  That's why you feel trapped. It's the lack of options that you have. It's not as you say, Okay, it's not really that you're being bound to go into work. It's that this is the only thing you have on the table right now. So you have to go. So I totally agree. You've got to create those options. And because you know, it's not just about what you're gonna get miserable. Either the company may decide they don't meet you, and then you literally are going to be a victim. Okay, now I have to start from ground zero again, of course it's never ground zero. But you know, you've got to start again to kind of create those options. And I don't really know why people don't do that. There must be one of those cognitive biases there that people stick to what, once they sort of feel settled, they just don't explore options. I don't know whether they fear that they might, I don't know whether it's inefficient for the brain or whether it's that they've they're worried those options might start to tantalize them away from something that might be better perceived as better for them. But there must be a bias there somewhere that is blocking people from coming up with options or or managing multiple options.

  Erica D'Eramo 30:32

  I think there's a generational element here as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there is probably a million reasons. But yeah, the this idea that, like the loyalty is to way with companies and individuals, and you're gonna have a 40 year career with one company, I think, you know, like Gen Z definitely isn't viewing it that way. Most Millennials are not. But I think that that existed amongst a lot of people for a period of time. And it was seen as like, disloyal to be going and looking at options. But also, like, we got a lot of introverts out here in the streets, and we, right, maybe it can be exhausting to be meeting a lot of people and people especially that are balancing like their, you know, tennis or whatever, and, and feeding their four cats and medicating them. All the different things are balancing outside of the workplace. What I love that Yael has mentioned a couple times, like in the past podcast episode is your network is not just like networking hour at the whatever industry event, right? It is your tennis buddy. It is your hairdresser. It is the person at synagogue, like it is all of those people.

  Yael Iffergan 31:46

  That's right. Yeah. Not being afraid to have the work conversation with people you have a personal relationship with? First of all, we're multi dimensional, right? And so I tell people all the time, you know, it's Okay to talk about work in a social setting, right, at least helping people understand what it is you do and what that looks like, and so forth. And you know, listen, I'm victim to that, too. I always thought this was real poignant, I, I'm a yogi, I practice yoga on a regular basis. And I had developed a very good girlfriend who I practiced with twice a week for five years, before I figured it out what she does for a living shame on me, shame on me for not asking the question, right. And so it's just about understanding who people are, and what people do. And not just for yourself, but also so that you can help them. Be interested. Exactly right. We spend 40 plus hours a week and our jobs, there's no shame in asking what it is that people do with those 40 hours a week, so that you can expand your network, you can potentially help them in their situation, et cetera. Right. So it's really about being open minded. It's about exploring people, and really wanting to be curious and helpful. It doesn't have to be quite so needy, or inappropriate, right? Like it should be genuine, right? It's a huge part of who people are. So you know, where I always start,

  Erica D'Eramo 33:34

  We met through yoga, we actually met through yoga,

  Yael Iffergan 33:37

  We did.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:38

  That's right. Like just somebody who had who said, we "I think you guys both are, have some commonalities in your career paths. Let me introduce you." Somebody who didn't have any of that commonality. But they said, like, I think I know enough about both of you to say that you should talk. And now you are one of the people I can go to for data to help. Like, if I am looking at options, whether you know, for myself or clients, I'm helping clients evaluate stuff. You're one of the people that I can go to to help fill in some of the gaps because you have such a broad view over so many industries to be like, hey, what's the thing I'm not seeing here? What's the thing I'm not understanding? So it's not even just to find new opportunities, your network can help you evaluate opportunities that come to you and might look green might look greener. And you're gonna be like, what's the real dirt here so and so like you've worked in this realm, you've done this job, you know, somebody at this company like, what what am I not seeing? What am I not thinking about here?

  Absolutely.

  What have you seen Adam that works for people when you, when they're doing this option evaluation?

  Adam Forbes 34:48

  Well, I suppose most people have some kind of idea. I think of what they want to do, even if it's not But what they'll end up doing. So I mean, the obvious one is to trial it in some way to try that kind of option out if you can, you know, there are loads of things you can do there. I mean, you can go and sit with somebody doing that job, you can go shadow somebody, you can go and just have a coffee with somebody and ask them how it works. Or you can try and practice it in some way. So if you know, the side, hustle is the obvious thing, where you just try to do it along the side of your job and just try out some of those things. So you, you just start to try and make it real, rather than, you know, taking it out of that dream fantasy, and start to see and you start. I mean, the beauty of that is not only do you start to see whether it's viable, but you also start to see whether you're you like it, and and whether you're good at it, as well. So you start to get a

  Erica D'Eramo 35:55

  It's like a pilot program.

  Adam Forbes 35:57

  Yeah, that's sort of that sort of thing, where you're just testing it in the real world, rather than in your head where it is where it either, I mean, I've two things happened. And they were options, either you they live in this sort of fantasy world where that would be amazing if you only or you kill these things prematurely, because you don't know enough about them, or they seem they seem too risky. So at least taking them out of your head allows you to test certain variables. I mean, not necessarily even viability may not be the first one you're really but at least test whether you actually like the idea, because I'll tell you one thing that just sort of strikes me when when I did eventually mature my thinking about what it was to be an entrepreneur. And recognized that there are multiple variants of entrepreneurs, it's a spectrum like everything, I did start to see that actually, I was an entrepreneur and I had been right all along. But there were many years where I thought I was no good at this and failing at it and couldn't do it. And there are other people that weren't cut out for this. And I wasn't because I had the wrong, you know, the wrong kind of template to match myself to. And as soon as I modified the template, you know, I fit it, of course, because it was really just around me all the time. So I think some of this is just about, it's a bit like the networking, it's just going outside of your head to somebody else to the real world to test, test some of those things, you know partly what you're testing, it might be like maybe even was me for a while, actually, you're not ready for this year, you need to do some work on yourself, you need to do some other things,

  Erica D'Eramo 37:40

  which is the successful outcome though. I just want to be clear about it. Because I think like, with like with projects, right? When you're doing like appraise stage projects, no project manager wants their project to get killed right then and there's this bias to like, push it through, we got to push the project or no, that's not like the goal we're setting here with some of these pilots is not prove to myself that I will be happy doing this. It's the open ended question of like, what here works? What fulfills me? Will I have a regret if I don't do this? And if if the answer is actually I don't like this, or it's not viable, it's not feasible. I'm not cut out for it, whatever that means. That's a successful outcome. Because it means that you won't live with the regret of not having done that, because you answered the question, right? Like, that's huge. There's so much value in that. But we get caught up in our egos because we set the goal as being making this work instead of the goal being get data about whether I'll like, whether this will make me happier.

  Yael Iffergan 38:47

  I was just gonna say when you go about life with that attitude, right? Like, let me just, I'm just gonna test this out like, this seems interesting to me. Like, I wonder what's involved in this. And you go through life exploring these different options, and then you're open to both the positive and negative feedback like, No, I hated it. I really didn't. Like that happened to me with my college major. I was certain. I was certain, like my degrees in marketing, and I started my career out that way. And I hated it. Like I couldn't stand it. Right. And so being open to that feedback from yourself, do I like this? Do I not like this? Rather than going in with a idealistic view, like, Oh, this is gonna be amazing. And there's, there's no such thing as failure like that. Sadly, we might not like it. So I think when you go about life, that way, curious and open to possibilities and so forth, you end up having a much richer experience.

  Erica D'Eramo 39:53

  That sunk cost bias of like, I invested all this money or whatever it was, time, opportunity. So therefore I need to see it through to success? No, maybe what you did is you invested in the knowledge and the satisfaction with going back to your previous role, like maybe it gave you that calm to go through life and be like, No, I wasn't supposed to be a restauranteur, or I wasn't supposed to be a professional yoga teacher, or whatever this thing is that you thought was going to bring you joy. Maybe you invested all of that time, effort, knowledge, money, to be happy where you are. And go back to where you came from. So Adam, what were you to say?

  Adam Forbes 40:36

  Yeah, I was, I was thinking about the options in the plural, keeping them as well. Because if you're not careful, you create an option. And then everything has to that causes new sunk cost bias, you know, everything has to it has to work. Now I've given up everything for this. And so much better.

  Erica D'Eramo 40:56

  Yes!

  Adam Forbes 40:57

  To keep these things running in parallel or keep, I have multiples of them. I feel like that was I mean, obviously incredibly fortunate position to leave a job and get redundancy pay. So it bought me time, but I was really clear that I didn't want to just jumping into one thing. And you know, all the all the best practice about building a startup says, You've got to be totally focused, nothing else, you can't have a job alongside it. Well, it might be true if you're gonna go and you know, build one of these, you know, YouTube or something, but, but it wasn't really ever I was gonna build. And so, and the thing that I missed most was variety. I had one thing, you know, it was bigger than one thing. But um, so I said, right, if I'm going to have this privilege of leaving a job and doing something different, I'm gonna damn well make sure there's multiple things here. And of course, it creates a bit of redundancy, if things don't work out, which some of them didn't, didn't work out. But it gives me something that I now value more than anything, which is variety. To be honest, I value it more than any of the individual options, I think just has to be a half a liter. So I can pull choices I can make each day what I'm going to work on, things that I know, I'm better at, as well as things I know that are good for me to do, you know, all this, all this sort of mix of things. And, and I'm not saying everybody can live a life necessarily like that, hoping to but not everybody may want to either, but at least wait trying four or five things, I can get a sense where I'm most likely to be successful and replace that income that I was I lost through that corporate.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:47

  Yeah, that's like a coach's dream as well, because that's so data rich and a) it keeps an open mind to curiosity that's like such a key enabler that is, again, threaded throughout this entire conversation that we've been having, whether it's networking, whether it's options, but the data then that you can ask either as a coach or ask yourself is like, what activities am I most alive doing? What refuels me? Where have I been the happiest? Where have I felt the most connected? Whereas my like, what are commonalities in the groups I've worked with, that I've enjoyed working with? And there's so much data there that you can focus on on building the amalgamation of the things and understanding like some of those will be trade offs. But versus focusing on the things you don't like, right? Like all the things that you hate, that you're trying to get away from, that's good to understand it, but then always the flip side of like, Okay, if you don't like that, tell me what it is that you do, like, Where have you thrived? Where have you, like, gotten up in the morning and been like, Yes, I get to do XYZ today that's on the calendar today. And so yeah, having that variety, it means such a data rich environment. That's great.

  Adam Forbes 44:02

  Yeah. And the thing with the thing you hate reframed, you may hate much less, you know, so an example where, you know, I, I didn't particularly like working for a corporate so I thought, I'm definitely won't. I'll stay clear from corporates. But of course, turns out I'm actually quite good at working with corporate so but working in a different way, with corporates in it making a career out of it, but actually

  Erica D'Eramo 44:33

  Opting in?

  Adam Forbes 44:34

  Yeah, I feel like I feel it's playing to more of my strengths. Why would I? Why would I jettison all that experience I had, just for a sort of principle about something. Instead, reframe the relationship, find where you can add most value, play to your strengths, enjoy what you're doing, and, you know, and see if you can make a career or create an option that way too. And I think That's, it's, you know, it's a luxury to kind of step out and step away from it. But if there's one thing I'm trying to do with the book, it's trying to encourage that way, just that much like with your coaching, step back and say, How could I get what I need or what I'm good at, but just in a different way. And I think just having a bit of space to do that, because we're, you know, we're so kind of like, saturated by stuff that, you know, the job the life, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush notification to them everywhere, that we just don't give ourselves that sort of time. And so then when we're short of time, we're just in binary mode all the time, happy, not happy, happy, happy, you know, Sunday night, hate Mondays, you know, it's like, we're just living this sort of world like, this is, you know, is destined to make us unhappy? Or we do, you know, or we end up like split spending. Masses of money to be make ourselves happy to justify the misery have to be. Yeah, yeah, it's just so it's just

  Erica D'Eramo 46:08

  There's all this stuff about money won't buy you happiness, money will help you create the conditions, though, to do that, right. So like, that? Yael?

  Yael Iffergan 46:19

  Like, yeah, you know, I completely agree with Adam, you know, it really, it all comes back to understanding yourself and understanding what's important to you, you know, what Adam said about reframing the condition? It's pure genius, right? Because, really, and truly, you know, just because you leave corporate America doesn't mean you can have no interaction with corporate America in any way, shape, or form. Right? Like, I didn't fit inside organizations. But guess who pays my bills right now, all these organizations, I just don't need to be in them. Right? And so right outside of the confines, right? And so, and again, it all comes down to inventorying what makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? And then in what context? Right? And then how do I figure that out? And, you know, we kind of touched on it at a high level, but I want to make sure that it's, it's clear, I'm a huge fan of informational interviews, you know, talking to people who are doing what you want to do, who can give you straight talk about what the risks are, what the challenges are, what the benefits are, you know, understanding what different organizations look like, understanding people's pain points, people's happy points, you know, really getting in there. And, you know, I think that people think that it's hard to get those kinds of conversations going. And there certainly is a right and a wrong way. You know, like, Adam, for example, recently posted on LinkedIn, I'm looking to talk to people who have done X, Y, and Z. Who do you know, well, guess what, now that's a hot conversation, they're taking your phone call, and they're excited to talk to you and so forth. Right, expanding your network, knowing how to ask for help, knowing how to ask for connections, you know, recognizing that, you know, on LinkedIn, people generally are used to being sold. And that's it. But when somebody comes at you with a genuine conversation and genuine interest, take the time, take the risk, like what is really the risk involved here. Right, and being open minded. And

  Erica D'Eramo 48:44

  I think that's the piece around like, people like to talk about themselves. Like, we like to share our insights. And so when you're asking somebody, I think where we all get a little hesitant is like, am I being asked to do something? Am I being asked to invest in somebody, and somebody that I don't know that I haven't had any reciprocal relationship with yet. But a having that warm intro is super helpful, because somebody that can vouch for you that can say, like, Hey, I know this person, I think, you know, you could have a good conversation. I think that's really, really helpful. But even with a cold, a cold intro, being clear about what you're hoping to get from it, like, it looks like you have XYZ value or XYZ experience. I am looking at these areas, I would love to know what you know, name it, whatever it is, but not asking like for somebody to do something for you right out the gates, even though they are being generous. If they agree to have that conversation. They are doing something for you. They are being generous with their time and their insights. But yeah, we all like to talk about it to talk about ourselves. I do want to come to this point, about like, because I think we've we've all kind of touched on it, that I'm hearing something come through about this, like triage that maybe need needs to happen sometimes if we are unhappy, and starting to look at like, oh, is the grass greener over there? Like, what is the neighbor's yard look like? That question of sort of like what's in your control right now? And then, like, can you actually change the situation? And sometimes the answer is yes. At high cost, or high uncertainty. Sometimes the answer is no, we can't change it. And then the question is like, Okay, well, what can you change? And maybe it's your, how you relate to it, which Adam brought up. Maybe it's like, just how are we going to, like, the last level of triage is just like, how are we going to create a condition where I can survive and get a little that breathing room, so I'm not in that like survival mode, so that I can then start in a, in a thoughtful way, exploring opportunities without that pressure of like, I gotta get out, I gotta get out. So that like hierarchy, we'll call it hierarchy of controls in engineering, I guess. But like, it's sort of

  Yael Iffergan 51:01

  I would love to talk to you this.

  Erica D'Eramo 51:02

  What's in your control?

  Yeah, let's go!

  Yael Iffergan 51:04

  You know, I think, I think that I read this somewhere. And I was so profound to me. But you know, that old adage of, if do something you'll love, and you'll never work a day in your life, I think that is the most ridiculous thing. Because not everybody can monetize their passion. And so recognizing that fulfillment, for example, may or may not come from your job from the thing that brings you money. Right. And so if, for example, your beef is that you're not fulfilled, find fulfillment elsewhere. Right. You know, I think that people think that their jobs should provide these holistic, all encompassing situations for them. And that is not realistic. Right? So for example,

  Erica D'Eramo 51:04

  It's also not healthy, because then it goes away. And you're screwed.

  Yael Iffergan 51:20

  That's right, eventually, because you've turned it into your J. O, B. Right? And so really understanding what are the things that work can fulfill? And what are the things that work cannot fulfill? And then how do I fill in the gaps elsewhere, right. And so it might be, I want more time with my kids, great then make more time for your kids. Let's talk about boundaries. And honestly, like, I gotta tell you, the TikiToki is full of really fantastic content about creating boundaries for your work, right. And so you don't have to get everything from your job. And really understanding that there are ways to get what you need that don't, that don't surround the thing that brings you money at the end of the day.

  Erica D'Eramo 53:04

  Honestly, like, that was a realization that didn't come to me until much later. And it came to me only after I essentially said I'm done. I'm, I'm leaving, like, I'm gonna take what turned out to be a sabbatical. But once I said that, then I was able to create so much more space. And people would say to me, like, man, for somebody who's only got like, a couple months left in this role, or, you know, before you go off into the sunset, you sure are like knocking it out of the park. And I had to laugh. And it was like, because I've stopped gripping the wheel so tight, right, because this isn't my everything anymore. Because this is it's put it in perspective and in context for what it is giving me. And now I can be present. Now not staying up all hours trying to give it 110% And showing up exhausted in the morning and burnt out and like stressed out, now I have the like clarity, to show up, do my job and then go get the rest and recuperation than I need. But I think that you know that they're, after the Industrial Revolution, pretty much like people would like live in communities built for by companies, every they would buy from stores, that the company's stocked everything, the families would all hang out with other families from that company, like everything became, you know, given by the company, and that's shifted over time. But we still see the remnants of that and some of the language about like, "We're family." No, you're my employer. My family doesn't lay me off. My family can't give me a performance rating at the end of the year and or like deduct my pay. That's not family, and I don't want it to be family that's not healthy, right? Like your job should can't and shouldn't be giving everything like that to you because then it holds you hostage. Adam I'm sure you probably have some thoughts on that.

  Adam Forbes 54:51

  Yeah, I do. I mean, I just I feel like this is so true. I don't quite know what sort of happens that you end up sort of falling into this way of thinking, but I mean, I put a lot of it down to sort of, there is a sort of subversive element to corporate language, particularly that is doing things like the family. And the other one is purpose, you know, trying to get us all to kind of fit with purpose or company purpose, I just feel now was such a con, because I was, I was trying to, because it was such a big part of my life that I thought, wow, I've got to make it really count. Now, it's got to count for so much. And because I couldn't really make it linked to my purpose and its purpose, I think I always felt really dissatisfied. And leaving it all. I now realize that work much that I can say Yael, is about making money. So I can afford to do things outside of work. And it feels so refreshing to have that way, that way of life. But I think in a way, it can only happen because my career is not so bound up with it, I'm not so bound up in a career anymore. I don't have to feel quite so long term about it. So you know, don't have to be thinking like, when's my next move that everything is sort of bought into like, like, where you're going next? The future.

  Erica D'Eramo 56:15

  It becomes life or death, right? Yeah. When all your I mean, this is we've talked about this in both of our conversations that we've had previously. But it's like, when your community is entirely in that, that job when your identity is tied up in a job when your network, your support your like, your healthcare,

  Adam Forbes 56:39

  financial future...

  Erica D'Eramo 56:39

  ...until recently, your ability to feed your family, literally everything is in one bucket, then yeah, it does make it really high stakes. And I think that's why people stay past the point of being unhappy, which then again, so it's like a vicious cycle, right, like this life, the course the lifespan of the unhappiness, everything gets tied up, you feel trapped, then you become supremely unhappy and happy. And then it's just like, you're looking for any life raft to get you out of that situation, and might jump to something that's not as...

  Yael Iffergan 57:13

  Or you're just gonna recreate it, you're just going to recreate

  Erica D'Eramo 57:16

  Or recreate and recreate it. Yes, yeah, if you haven't done the work. So to kind of bring this into a landing, it sounds like really doing the thinking, really doing the self exploration, the self work, hopefully, if that's difficult, people can reach out to somebody like one of us to do some of that exploration to ask the questions, they can buy the book that will be on sale very soon. Can go through some of the exercises, and, and lean on people like us who have gone through these changes who have worked with people to help do that exploration, do the spreadsheet, do whatever it is, do the mind mapping that will will get you there so that you can really understand what shade of green you want. What are your What are your key takeaways? Let's start with the Yael. What what do you want people at listeners to take away as their like headline if once they walk away today.

  Yael Iffergan 58:24

  Really make sure that you're making thoughtful decisions based on the right information, gather the information so that you can make a thoughtful decision that will help get you to the place that you want to be.

  Erica D'Eramo 58:39

  Yeah, awesome. Adam, how about you?

  Adam Forbes 58:42

  I would say I would definitely say say the same about that get the information. But the the other thing that we haven't really touched on too much, but I do think is linked to all of this is be patient. You know, it took time to build this career, you know, you've got you owe it to yourself to take time to find the next step of this, you know, it's not, it's not a race, it's far better to get into the right lane, you know, or find the next lily pad or whatever metaphor is, you know, so, so be patient. And part of being patient, I think is creating some space for yourself so you can properly think about this stuff. And I'm not saying you need to sabbatical, you need to go and leave work or anything. Just find space, you know, walks in fresh air for an hour. Amazing what your brain can do when it's got no phone buzzing out, you know, children, annoying you, no work colleagues annoying you, just give yourself time. I mean, I think to be honest, a week or two of with some walks every other day. It's amazing what you'll come up with. I think the brain is so powerful when it's just left to just process things without all the noise we're cramming into it and and do that you're be surprised at some, how you feel about yourself how you feel about the world. And what options you may well have that you hadn't necessarily thought of before.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:11

  Walks, yeah, walks, like really changes the way your brain is the brain is processing information. The other thing that is tactical that I've seen good results with is that 15 minutes of journaling, like freeform writing to get the words out of your brain. And it's surprising doing that a few days a week will really kind of illuminate some things. How should people be connecting with you? Adam, how about you? How do you like people to connect with you? Find your works.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:42

  I've got a Substack called Corporate Escapologist. Substack for years.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:48

  We'll put it in the show notes.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:50

  Yeah, I've got Instagram. I've got LinkedIn, corporateescapology.com. And the book, obviously

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:56

  And the book!

  Adam Forbes 1:00:56

  Why the second I met mentioned.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:59

  Awesome. And Yael, how should people connect with you?

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:03

  I'm on LinkedIn, they're welcome to find me. My website is InfiniTalent.net. My email is Yael@InfiniTalent.net. And I invite anybody to call and chat. I always do a free 30 minute consultation. If somebody just wants some high level feedback. I'm delighted to chat with them anytime.

  Adam Forbes 1:01:26

  Nice.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:01:27

  Awesome. We'll put all of those links in the show notes and in the summary that we host on our website. So for those that are looking for that that's a twopiersconsulting.com Under content. So thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate you sharing all your insights, and I can't wait to have you back on the podcast friends as triple triple attendee guests.

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:53

  Thanks for having us.

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The Search for Greener Grass: Insights from Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

In this episode of our podcast, host Erica D'Eramo sits down with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes to discuss the intricacies of career changes and the pursuit of fulfilling work. This conversation dives into personal experiences, common biases, and practical advice for anyone considering a significant career shift.

The Bias of Assuming Opportunities Are Always Better

Introduction to Career Changes

Erica opens the discussion by highlighting a common bias: the assumption that new opportunities are inherently better than the current situation. This mindset can often lead to unrealistic expectations and poor decision-making.

Personal Experiences with Career Pivots

Yael Iffergan shares her journey of realizing that sometimes the problem lies within oneself rather than external factors. Adam Forbes, drawing from extensive interviews, notes that these themes frequently emerge in conversations with people undergoing career changes.

The "Grass is Greener" Mentality

Idealizing Others' Lives

Erica and Adam discuss the dangers of the "grass is greener" mentality, where individuals assume that others have it better. They stress the importance of recognizing and challenging confirmation bias, which can lead to unrealistic expectations.

Recognizing Misleading Idealizations

Adam expresses envy towards those who have started their own businesses, despite not taking steps towards entrepreneurship themselves. He acknowledges that idealized portrayals of successful entrepreneurs can be misleading.

Workplace Dissatisfaction and Setting Goals

Evaluating Alternatives Realistically

Yael agrees with Adam that fantasy expectations in organizations are a red flag. Erica and Adam discuss the necessity of being granular when evaluating new opportunities, emphasizing the importance of honest assessments of both pros and cons.

Prioritizing Personal Values in Career Decisions

Informing Career Decisions

Erica highlights the importance of inventorying personal values and priorities when making career decisions. She discusses the limitations of data in evaluating opportunities and the need to consider non-quantitative risks.

Addressing Familiarity Bias

Erica also points out the bias towards staying in familiar situations and the importance of overcoming this heuristic to make informed decisions.

Career Growth and Decision-Making

Exploring Personal Goals

Yael emphasizes a measured approach to pursuing mental health and personal growth. Adam shares an exercise from a book that helped a woman evaluate job satisfaction, leading to increased objectivity and agency.

Feeling Less Trapped

Adam discusses helping people feel less trapped in their jobs, not necessarily to leave, but to explore and evaluate their current situations objectively.

Networking and Job Satisfaction

Building a Support Network

Erica and Yael discuss the importance of agency and optionality in work life. They note that building a support network is easier when one is happy and fulfilled rather than miserable.

Exploring Career Options

Adam emphasizes the importance of creating options beyond the current job and addresses the fear of missing out (FOMO) as a potential barrier. Erica and Yael also touch on the generational differences in loyalty and job longevity.

Testing Business Ideas

Real-World Experimentation

Adam suggests testing business ideas through shadowing, networking, or practice to gauge viability and personal fit. Erica and Adam discuss the importance of self-reflection and personal growth in entrepreneurship.

Embracing Feedback

Erica and Yael emphasize the need to gather data and be open to feedback to find fulfillment in career decisions.

Career Development and Personal Growth

Data-Rich Environment for Growth

Erica discusses the value of a data-rich environment for coaching, networking, and personal growth. Adam highlights the importance of self-reflection and understanding one's priorities.

Expanding Networks

Erica and Yael agree on the value of informational interviews and expanding one's network to explore new opportunities.

Work-Life Balance and Fulfillment

Setting Boundaries

Erica discusses the importance of warm introductions and clear communication in networking. Yael shares her thoughts on the notion that doing what you love means you'll never work a day in your life.

Fulfillment Beyond Work

Both Erica and Yael emphasize that fulfillment cannot solely come from one's job. They stress the need to create boundaries and prioritize personal needs outside of work to maintain a healthy work-life balance.

Finding Purpose and Avoiding Burnout

Thoughtful Decision-Making

Adam discusses feeling trapped in a corporate job due to the high stakes of identity, community, and financial well-being. Erica agrees, noting that people often stay in unhappy jobs for these reasons.

Patience and Reflection

Adam suggests patience in finding the next career step and recommends taking walks and journaling to gain insights.

How to Get In Touch

Adam’s book, Corporate Escapology launches July 2nd and you can also find him on his Corporate Escapologist Substack. You can find Yael over on LinkedIn or at InfiniTalent.net.

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This episode provides valuable insights into the complexities of career changes, highlighting the importance of self-reflection, realistic evaluations, and building a supportive network. Whether you're considering a major career pivot or seeking more fulfillment in your current role, these discussions offer practical advice and food for thought.