The Rooted Renegade - with Rebecca Arnold, JD, CPCC, PCC

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  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have Rebecca Arnold joining us. So Rebecca is a professional certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching and Consulting LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She's also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo, and Unleash Your Legacy, which will be published by Greenleaf book group in June of 2024. The book is her call to action; part roadmap and part step by step guide to create a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. Her clients are mission driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social impact organizations. And attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. More importantly, she's known as a straight talking big hearted coach. She also happens to be a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. We are so excited to have Rebecca, join us today and share some of her insights on creating a rooted life.

  Rebecca, Hi, thanks for joining us.

  Rebecca Arnold 1:23

  It is a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:26

  Yeah, absolutely. So let's just start with kind of my typical question that I asked every guest, tell us a little bit about your origin story. So what what brought you to the Rebecca that we meet today,

  Rebecca Arnold 1:42

  So many things like most people. So I studied psychology in college, and I was deeply fascinated with education policy, which led me to law school to work on equity issues in education. And I worked in the federal government, which was a fascinating social experiment. And how big change happens and seeing kind of how the sausage gets made behind the scenes, which is probably a conversation for another day. And then after that, I had my two kids, and I was doing consulting with education, nonprofits. And I finally found my dream job. I was ecstatic. I was doing policy work in the education space, we were making tectonic impacts in education systems, there was brand new legislation, I was on top of the world. And you know where this is going. I colossally burned out. And I had a real crisis of a call this like values collision, where my values around social impact and education equity and all of that were conflicting with my own well being my values of family and connection, I was traveling a lot and not able to show up for my kids in the way that I wanted. And I really wasn't prioritizing my physical and mental health. So I entered this period of extreme burnout and kind of collapse. And through that process, there was a long healing journey. And as a part of that, I started asking myself this question of, What do I do next? If I've just experienced my dream job, and that is no longer an option? Where do I go next? It was this real existential reckoning. And I started reconnecting with my psychology roots. And I remembered somewhere in the back of my mind this idea about coaching that I'd heard about somewhere along the way. And so I took a class in coaching. And I, you know, that experience when it feels like puzzle pieces, just click into place, and it's your you have this like full body? Yes, that is how it felt after having this coaching experience. And so it was very clear to me that that was my direction, and a way to integrate lots of different interests that I have and support folks along the way, especially in particular to avoid the experience that I had at burnout.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:24

  Yeah, that origin story absolutely resonates for me, and I'm sure resonates for a lot of folks listening of you know, when you find something that you think is the dream, there is almost like an identity crisis that happens when you realize that the future you'd envisioned is not going to be the path that you're going to take. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really.

  Rebecca Arnold 4:45

  And lots of folks feel lost in that gap up trying to figure out what's next because we don't talk about that enough.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. Yes. Especially on this journey that we've set out for so so many folks cuz in society of like, you go to school and you get that you get your high school done, and then you go to undergrad, and then maybe you go into corporate and you go on that ladder, or maybe you go to grad school and you go on that ladder. So when you sort of realize like, Oh, I'm not going to stay on this ladder, Oh, no. What now?

  Rebecca Arnold 5:17

  Right.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:18

  Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:18

  And some of these letters are very long. I mean, the fact that academic faculty I work with have been in their field for 20 years sometimes and are on the tenure track, and then are looking at am I even interested in this field of study anymore? Which causes a whole reckoning with the choices? A person may have made it 25.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:37

  Right. Right. Right. And introduces elements of grief and yeah, and identity, like you mentioned. Yeah. So you've talked a little bit about what drew you to this work. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, what makes it important to you.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:55

  I have this sort of notion that if you know, that idea that the medicine that's needed for the planet exists on the planet itself, I have a similar thought about humans that if everyone were actually able to access their gifts, talents, the lessons of their experiences, and bring that unapologetically, we would be able to solve our most pressing challenges on the planet, in our communities in our families. But there's so much energy wasted with stifled passion, intention and gifts, that we all miss out. And I am so committed to people being able to access the part of them that may have they may have cast aside a long time ago or might not feel entitled to lean into and recapture that energy for their own benefit. And for all of our benefits. So that is what lights me all the way up. And I get pumped when I'm working with people who are ready to make the shifts that that might require. And I just love watching the cascading impacts of those changes for folks in their workplaces and their families in their communities. You can watch it happen. Yeah, sure. You have a similar experience with your clients too.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:16

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've I've been going on this kind of evolution in my coaching and consulting journey. But it sounds very similar in that, you know, I started working with individuals. And that's important, right, but I wanted to make system changes. And then I started to work with the systems and organizations. But I've kind of come full circle back to the individuals because they are the agents of change. Right? It is, it is working with these individuals who will shape the world. And so yeah, as coaches, I think we work with, we work one on one with people. But the point is that they have the impact in the world that they want and need to have. So

  Rebecca Arnold 7:59

  absolutely. And I think about the leaders who I support and the 1000s of folks they're responsible for, and their families and their communities and one small shift and how they're showing up has tremendous impact. And so it's so it just seeds, so much possibility for them and for those around them that you can't help but get excited about it as a coach. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 8:27

  Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So So tell me a little bit more about the concept of being rooted in peace, which is sort of one of the foundational elements of your, your upcoming book. So describe to me what that looks like, what is rooted peace?

  Rebecca Arnold 8:42

  Yeah, so I think about rooted peace from three, it's sort of the constellation of three different elements. The first is this idea of internal peace. So building the capacity to have greater resilience to counteract stress, whether that is through breath, work, through visualization, through connecting with what matters most to you. The second piece is existential peace. Are you living your purpose? Are you aligned with your values holistically in the span of your life? Are you supporting yourself in your day to day, are you breaking yourself down? And then the third piece is relational. The third element is relational peace, which is your relationship with yourself and with other people. And the way that I think about this idea of rooted peace is that in order to have this Mind, Body heart experience of everything feels right in our lives, we really need those three components. And my invitation in this book and always is not to seek perfection, because all of us are working in those three elements throughout our lives. But it's more of a framework for how to look at at what's working in your life, and what's not and what to do about it. And I am really committed to practical things. So there are tons of practices built throughout this framework to support people to have an impact in those three areas.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:18

  Yeah, I don't know how many books I've read that are great conceptually. And in theory, and you finish and you're like, Man, that was such a good read. And then you go back to life as normal, because there was nothing tactical, measurable that you could put into practice and start to embed those over time. So yeah, that's, that's great. So, you know, you sort of took your own journey and stepped off the train, the train tracks. And that probably involved a lot of reframing what you wanted out of life. And it sounds like that's maybe a thread with your clients reframing. So how does this concept shape your concept of success than or how you view success.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:06

  So we are all in the US anyway, swimming in a, in a culture that prioritizes Go, go go capitalism, top dog, all of that stuff. And we have, most of us have grown up with a traditional notion of success that looks like that. But when we think about the things that we actually want, so when people talk about wanting more money, for example, they don't want to jump in a pile of money. I mean, that might be like an interesting experience. But that's not what people are actually after

  Erica D'Eramo 11:39

  So many germs.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:43

  What they actually want is the experience that they think having that money will get them. What they're usually seeking is calm, tranquility, adventure, a life that looks that feels good on the inside, and reflects who they feel like they are. And so when I think about success, it's what are the things that are going to give you the mind, heart and soul experience of awe? And yes, simultaneously. And that's the thing, when I think about for my own kids, what I want for them, that's what I want for them. And I also want for them to know how to pick themselves back up and be a partner for themselves throughout their journey. And so those are some of the pieces of success and the ways that I look at success. And what my clients are really wrestling with often is when they have followed this, these long ladders that we've talked about, and they thought that success will be on the other side and happiness. And then they experience a gap of I am successful, quote unquote, and miserable on the inside. And I'm not Okay with that. I'm sure you're not Okay with that either. And when I think about rooted peace, the objective is to get people that alignment of the outside and the inside their experiences. Meech, yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:07

  I mean, I think that, right, that it's such a complex discussion, because especially in a right, we live in capitalism, and and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we need a roof over our heads, and we need food. And sometimes we can't take that for granted, especially with inflation and everything happening. And also, this acknowledgment that even once you start to meet the lower baseline, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we start to explore those upper echelons of it. And if you don't have those, either, you still won't have what it is that money or titles or whatever is supposed to give us. Yes to be holistic, right?

  Rebecca Arnold 13:52

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's also a piece that I see. I don't know what your experiences with your clients, but I think of it as like an atrophied wanting muscle for folks who are women and other marginalized identities, having a hard time even connecting with what they want, and what is gonna fill them up. That is not from external sources, but is actually comes internally and as deeply felt.

  Erica D'Eramo 14:21

  Yes, yeah, that was that's I just recently with a client had a conversation about, you know, taking a different role, and it would be a lower title, but it would give much more, you know, quality of life, but it would be a step down. But the pay would be the same, you know, and it was it was interesting, because it was like, well, there's nothing wrong with putting value on the title is Are you actively intentionally opting into that as a value or did is this inherited, inherited did somebody give this to you as a value because the structure the system, the organization, they A benefit off of you internalizing that, as you know, tied to your value as a human. But do you actually do that? And it turns out the answer was no.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:10

  Yep. Yeah. I mean, even in our language, right, like a step down, yeah, we're taking a step into a higher quality. Who decided that title was a step down? So it's embedded throughout?

  Erica D'Eramo 15:25

  Yeah, that was my client's language, not mine. Right. Like they that was? Yeah. Which is is such a signal to to win how we view that? Yeah, it's like, well, you know, how much money would you pay for peace of mind? And let's put $1 amount on that to, for you to see just how valuable it actually is for you.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:48

  Right? I mean, when you think about, sometimes I do this thought exercise with clients, like, what is this? What is this job actually costing you? And we go through? Well, I have to go to the doctor three times a year to check on this thing. That is, I'm not paying any attention to, I need to take these expensive vacations to recover, I have to have coverage for my kids, because I'm not able to show up for them in the way that I want. I have to, I spent a lot of frivolous money because I'm trying to numb out. Right. And when you start to add all that up, it is deeply expensive to not be aligned with what you actually want. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 16:28

  yeah. I know that the compounding interest on wellbeing is probably something that we can't calculate. Wow. Yeah. So you know, what are some ways that you feel folks can, you know, use the wisdom and the power that they inherently have to go from maybe where they're at right now to building something that looks more sustainable for them.

  Rebecca Arnold 16:55

  So one piece, which dovetails on what we were just talking about is, I call this notion dancing with mortality. We have this idea that mortality is so far off, and for most of us, and it is just a lie, we tell ourselves to get through the day, which of course we have to right, if we were every moment thinking about our mortality, we wouldn't be able to function, right? And we we sort of cast mortality, we kind of cover our eyes and look away. And what I often invite people into is to have the sense of dancing with mortality, which looks like bringing it a little more into your conscious awareness. Like maybe once a week, hey, I'm X number of years old, how many more years do I actually have left? And how do I want those to look? And there's a zooming out quality that happens at a reprioritizing that happens as soon as we start to have that kind of a conversation.

  Erica D'Eramo 17:53

  Yeah, I mean, there's a, I don't want to call it a trope. But this it's kind of well known now that you know, the astronauts that get to see the earth, from afar have this complete existential shift about, you know, where we are and what a miracle it is that we even exist. And for me that dancing with mortality, anyone who's listened to the podcast for a while has heard me tell the story about like, snapping into a helicopter see, and sort of having it front of mine that there had been a bunch of helicopter crashes in the industry and beyond what if this helicopter goes down? Did I do what I wanted to do in life? Well, I have regrets on the way down, like, certainly sadness and fear, but like regrets about how I spent my time. And the answer was yes, that day, and it was a real, like, wake up call for me. And anyone who's dealing with illness, or anytime we hear these things in the media about, or in our communities, even about, you know, like, mass shootings or just real tragedies, it's a, it's a reminder, like tomorrow is not, tomorrow is not a given. Absolutely.

  Rebecca Arnold 19:04

  And it puts that email you've been fighting over into the perspective it needs to be in. And it's so easy to kind of slingshot back into our day to day. So the invitation is just to periodically bring it into your awareness. Another piece that I another kind of practice that I think about in terms of activating the wisdom that you hold inside is we have most of my clients and I'm sure this is your experience, too, that kind of operate from the neck up. And we're so used to relying on our brain in Western culture. Of course, our brains are delightful. And there is

  Erica D'Eramo 19:42

  I don't know Speak for yourself

  Rebecca Arnold 19:48

  or frustrated with mine too. And there is so much wisdom, intuition, understanding from the neck down that we often to now And so, most, most of us are kind of under practiced in paying attention to the signals that our body is giving us. And it is one of the quickest ways to access our intuition and help us make reprioritize and make some of the critical decisions in our lives. And so I often work with folks to kind of re kind of forge a new relationship with the wisdom of their bodies. And that can look like when you have an ache talk, I know that sounds a little wacky, but talking to your ache, what are you trying to tell me? What do you need me to know? And as you start asking, those kinds of questions, your body will start to answer. So there's, this is a whole realm. I mean, your somatic practice is a whole realm that has so much richness, and is not talked enough about I think, in leadership kind of spaces and circles and within organizations.

  Erica D'Eramo 20:56

  Yeah, there's a an author named Lisa Feldman Barrett, she wrote, yeah, how emotions are made. And so as you're talking through this, it's just reminding me that, like, our brain is interpreting a lot of things. And it's really just reading what's happening in our body that's, that is happening in order to keep us alive. Yep. And then we add context, we add meaning we add history. And then we come up with a word and we say, Oh, I'm scared, or I'm this, or I'm that. But really, it's the things are happening in our bodies. And then we can be more reflective and intentional about that and more observant.

  Rebecca Arnold 21:38

  Yeah, it's so interesting to me, I don't know if that you've had this experience, but lots of books talk about the need for emotional intelligence, and social intelligence and all of that. And oftentimes, that work can be intellectual in a way that is great, and is missing the complementary piece of, if it's hard for you to identify the imprints of different emotions in your body, it's very hard for you to be compassionate and empathetic with other folks and understand your own emotional interior life. And so of course, there can be a gap in collaboration and communication and teamwork and all those things that our leaders and organizations value so much.

  Erica D'Eramo 22:21

  Yeah, yeah. That the word interoception a lot of like, throw that out there. A lot of people are not familiar with that word, but it means right, being able to know what is happening in your body. And if that's not, there's a reason it's called a practice, right? This is not something that you just decide tomorrow, I'm going to be aware of what's happening in my body. So that's why working with a coach, like yourself can be so valuable, because it's bringing back to that like coming back using the practices being building that awareness over time. And it's a muscle that we build in a way, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So how do you feel folks can start to own their own capabilities, you know, even when they're in a work environment, that's maybe not sending them the most positive messages or can be filled with, you know, a lot of either toxicity or just criticality. And so, what's some advice you have?

  Rebecca Arnold 23:17

  Yeah, so I love this question. Thank you. There are so many small practices that can make a huge impact. And one that I love is simply at the end of the day, writing down three wins you had that day, it can be I smiled at a jerk today. From that to Iraq to that presentation, right, it can be as micro as you want to make it or as macro as you want to make it. But one of the opportunities of a practice like that is that if you know what's coming at the end of the day, you'll start to look for your wins throughout the day. And it's a very simple way of counteracting a toxic culture, not that this is going to fix everything. Of course, the toxic culture is systemic, and it's not an individual's responsibility to metabolize that. And while you are working in that system and trying to either negotiate, change or negotiate your out, there are practices you can do to start feeling incrementally better. And this is one of them. So it will start to counteract your our all humans have a natural negativity bias, it will start to counteract that and we'll start you'll start to notice the cumulative winds you have throughout the day and throughout the week. And I love watching and my clients when they start to do this initially, some of my clients are resistant. I don't know if you have this experience, but people are so used to beating themselves up they worry if they stop, they're going to fall apart.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:49

  Yeah, I Yes. I think that that is such a fascinating thing to explore as well because it's almost like you know, the Marie Kondo like Okay, take that parasites think it for what it's done for you and send it on its way. And I feel like that sometimes with our hyper criticality, these voices that we've developed over time, it's probably kept us safe. They probably helped us Excel especially over, you know, high performers, overachiever, overachievers. And so like acknowledging the role it played, because we don't want to demonize it mean, recognizing that it's no longer only option, and it's probably not really serving us that effectively going forward. So exploring what that might look like. But I, I really appreciate this framing versus I know that there's a lot around gratitude. And I, I know, there's a lot of research around the effectiveness of gratitude practice. But I love this idea of like capturing your wins, that you are proud of, because it's a reminder, that builds confidence in your own capabilities. Because confident we know right? Like confidence doesn't come from just telling yourself, you're confident I hate this narrative for women, like just believe in yourself. No, look at the evidence, there's evidence there that you are amazing. Go look.

  Rebecca Arnold 26:12

  And the what I would add, so this applies actually to gratitude practices, and also to practice like writing down your wins. If you write down your wins, and then allow yourself a few moments to experience the the sensations of pride in your body of having accomplished those wins, it will stay with you longer and have a bigger impact. Rick Hansen, I'm sure you've read Rick Hansen's work like neuro Dharma and the pursuit of happiness, I think it's called looking on my bookshelf. He talks about this practice of with gratitude, if you hold on to it longer, a little longer, and let it soak into your body. It has such a richer impact than just writing down a list of gratitudes. And then moving on to your email. Right, which totally makes sense, right? We hang on to it in a positive way. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 27:05

  I could see folks listening in and especially those like hardened corporate folks. This all sounds woowoo to me, blah, blah, blah, no, like, man, it's in this really isn't the science. And fundamentally, it comes down to surviving into the life you want to be living because so much of detaching from what's happening in our bodies and detaching from that flight fight or flight response means that are we stay in that right? We are constantly in a just soaked with cortisol, and we're more at risk for chronic illnesses or more at risk for toxic behaviors towards the people around us, whether that's family, employees, colleagues. So there are very practical and sound reasons that taking this like internal view, embracing some of these mindsets. They have like, very immediate impacts on our lives and in our performance. And yeah, yep. Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 28:12

  I had a client who when we talked about this wins practice, they said, I don't need a parade to do my job, which I totally heard. I was like, I totally hear that. And will you? Are you willing to experiment for a week and see how it goes? Right? Just a week, there's no, there's very little cost. And we have this fascinating conversation after of the reluctant admission that it was supportive. And so it's there is very little cost to trying some of these practices and very big upside. So I have worked with folks kind of across the gamut from, you know, big law firms, to superintendents to faculty at, like higher ed institutions. And many of my clients are initially reluctant, and then they see the impact. So I hear you, I hear you corporate folk who are feeling a little resistant to this. And what's the cost, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 29:13

  Yeah, I mean, there's so much power and curiosity of taking that experimenters mindset of setting. Sure your hypothesis might be that this is a bunch of BS, but you know, let's see what happens. And if it's effective, it's effective. Yeah, yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 29:29

  One piece of science that I like to give folks who are feeling reluctant is when you walk into it takes one grumpy person to ruin a meeting. Right? We know that our moods are contagious, more so than viruses even you don't need six feet with a mood, right, that can translate across a huge ballroom.

  Erica D'Eramo 29:49

  Just nothing. Yeah, totally, totally. And so

  Rebecca Arnold 29:54

  think about what's just what's happening in some of those interactions that throughout your day with your boss. or in a meeting with your senior leadership team or your customers. And if you were coming from a place with just 2% more calm, for example, what would be the impact of them?

  Erica D'Eramo 30:13

  You know, I just had a chance to catch up with them, like a long term mentor of mine, and we were talking about, you know, just navigating traffic and stuff. And she was saying that, you know, well, this is driving on the highways of Houston, so I will give it some context. But she was saying, you know, like, I just was trying to merge on the highway, and they wouldn't let me on the highway, you know, or like, they wouldn't let me off and, and then I finally had to cut in because I needed to get off the exit. And then they got all like Rayji, and like, blaring on the horn and, and all this stuff. And then that puts me in a crappy mood. And I just want to like, cut the next person off. And this just extrapolates and goes on and on. And but she had that awareness to be like, oh, oh, I'm, I'm like replicating this now. Yeah, and internalizing it, I gotta let that go. But how many people don't have that awareness to stop and say, Oh, wait, I don't need to replicate this. I don't need to internalize it. I'm going to complete the stress cycle, I'm going to scream in my car, play some music, or do whatever it takes. But I don't need to pass this on to other people. A lot of people don't have that awareness. Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 31:20

  Yeah, what I really appreciate about your example is, it's sort of an it's an example of the micro stressors that build up throughout the day. So a lot of us think about the stress of a big presentation, or a huge board meeting, but not those tiny moments of the email that makes your stomach acid royal or being cut off in traffic. And there's a researcher named Richard Boyatzis, who studies this and he says, we have 12 of these a day or something like that. And if we're not allowing ourselves the recovery time, these are just accumulating throughout their day. So no wonder you walk in the door. Grumpy Pants, right? Who What did so yeah, so there are just so many opportunities throughout the day to build in just moments of restoration to counteract the stress, we're all swimming and all the time,

  Erica D'Eramo 32:09

  which is different to then I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna like how many times a lot of us have built that in, especially people dealing with microaggressions you know, like having to pick your fights and deal with that day in and day out. And you stay, I'm just gonna let it go. But like, it's not it. There's a difference between actually being able to allow things to roll off of you versus just forcing yourself to censor a reaction and yeah, underlying it up, and then it comes out later.

  Rebecca Arnold 32:40

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, pseudo pseudo processing. One of the one practice I love and this is probably, Lisa Feldman, Barrett. Barrett did emotional granularity, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 32:57

  Yeah, I think she did do quite a bit on national granularity. So

  Rebecca Arnold 33:01

  even just the practice of saying to yourself, I am frustrated. Yep. And just naming it clearly allowing yourself to experience that and if you need to move on, you move on. But there's a reaction that happens systemically for us of you can feel your shoulders relaxed when you validate your own feeling that you're experiencing.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:26

  Yeah, we I just hosted a workshop earlier in the week and one of my like, giveaways or whatever was the feelings we'll I joked that we need to, like all print this out in in large poster format and put it on our wall so that we can walk over and be like, Okay, it's not just I'm mad, right? It's like, Okay, let's go a little more granular what is that? Because yeah, granularity and the ability to verbalize it is highly tied in the research to resilient outcomes. So, yeah, and we don't develop a lot of that vocabulary awareness in our day to day lives or society, especially not for men. Like, I'm just gonna say it right. We really don't expect that or require that a lot of, you know, the male tropes in our society. It's good for you. Because I,

  Rebecca Arnold 34:21

  we have I mean, you joke, but we have an emotion wheel on the bulletin board in my kitchen that has prime real estate. You can tell I'm a coach. My kids roll their eyes, and sometimes they walk over to it and are sort of looked quizzically trying to identify which is the exact thing they're feeling. And that's what I want them to do. That's what I want for all of us.

  Erica D'Eramo 34:42

  Yeah. Is it frustration? Is it resentment? Is it like enjoy all the Oh, yeah. All the things? Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 34:49

  I mean, it's both what I love about the for your folks who are feeling resistant. What I also appreciate about this naming specifically, what you're feeling is not just that it comes Our system but also, it points us toward a clearer answer. Right? If you're angry versus jealous, there's a different solution that is baked into that emotional experience. But if you're just calling everything angry, you're missing the subtlety that points to what you should do next.

  Erica D'Eramo 35:16

  Yeah, yeah. There's so often when when you really get to the underlying description of it, the granularity of it, there's so often an aha moment, right? Because angry versus resentment. Okay, what is it that we're feeling? Or is it do we really want to buy into that? Is that really within our value system, or angry because I've been wronged, and I'm hurt, my feelings are hurt. That's like a totally different pathway to resolving that or integrating that. So? Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 35:47

  So for your listeners who manage teams, if you start to paying a pay attention, in your one on ones are in your meetings to how people are verbalizing their experiences, you will start to notice what are some common emotional themes? And where you're missing opportunities to dig a little deeper into where are some solutions to what's going on for folks?

  Erica D'Eramo 36:11

  Yeah, yeah, I love that. So what's one way that you would, you know, help folks to cut through all the noise, right, and to just like, prioritize, you know, what they? What's the impact they want to have on the world?

  Rebecca Arnold 36:27

  So I love the question. If you knew you were gonna die in two years, what remains undone? And there's when I ask clients that question, there's, it's almost like, we immediately entered another plane of conversation, and thought, of course, right. So that's one very quick way to access it. Another approach, and I'm sure you do this with your clients, too, is visualization, and how quickly we can tap into our deeper levels of knowing and values when we kind of slow ourselves down and imagine the future that we want to create. And there's a there's a quality of conversation and insight that happens through visualizations, that is completely different from thought based questions like, what's your five year plan? Right? That's a totally different conversation, than having the experience of a visualization of imagining five years in the future. Who are you with? What's lighting your heart on fire? What's filling you all the way up? Who are the what are the relationships that you delight in? Right? There's all this that's accessible through visualization. So those are just a couple of ways. There are lots of others. But I think it really takes some awareness that we are, it's almost like our day to day life is static. And you know, when they're static in the background, you don't notice it until it's done, and your whole body exhales. That's what we're in all the time, right? When we think about all the inputs that we experience throughout the day. And it's so important to carve out these quieter moments of reflection, whether that is journaling, where you just let yourself riff, whether that is doing visualizations, or a grounding practice, there are so many ways to cut through the noise and reconnect with yourself and what matters most.

  Erica D'Eramo 38:27

  Yeah, I think it's, it's also, when we talk about some of these practices like visualization, I'm sure that there's like a YouTube we could watch or something. But working with somebody who understands and can and can guide some of this can be really helpful because I know I sat down in in a session one time and it I was in a period of flux. I had a lot of anxiety at the moment. And it was just like an open ended visualization about like, Okay, now project yourself forward one year, what's happening, and I was not in the heads, you know, like I needed more structure. I was not in the headspace for that, because it ended up just like amplifying all the anxiety. Like I'm living under a bridge I have, you know, everybody's around me has died, like all these awful things. But when you have somebody who a you've worked with for a while they understand what's important, and they can help guide that process so that you're you are envisioning what it is that success looks like what does it feel like? It can help you really get clear on like, what it is that you're actually trying to strive for, versus just, you know, some title or some job or some house? Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 39:34

  yeah. I mean, even each of those things, is the experience you want to have in those right. It's not the house. It's not the title. It's right. What are you what are those a signal for and that's what we both do in our coaching is to look beneath kind of what are those top layer things that folks are pointing to to excavate what's underneath that that they're really craving and wanting? Right?

  Erica D'Eramo 39:59

  Those are the those are the means to the ends. So once the ends, because there's probably other means that might be more effective to get you there. So, no, sorry, go ahead.

  Rebecca Arnold 40:12

  No, I was just gonna say I one thing that I one practice I really love is looking for where we are bringing in the How to soon. And I call it the how monster and my daughter made this awesome visual that I will I will send you a little clip at some point. But we think that how is this innocent little question that just crops up to help us plan. But what happens is before we can even articulate what we get into the how. So let's say we want a title of some kind. And then we start to riff on how but how can I have this conversation with my boss? What is that going to look like? When is that going to happen? Bob about and we just get more and more stressed before we even allow ourselves to articulate? What is the title and why and what can that look like and what is possible and what is available in that position. And then we crush any hope of articulating what we want. Because of this, how sort of picking apart energy that can happen. So I often invite people to set how aside, especially for folks who have an atrophied wanting muscle and just allow yourself to articulate the thing that you want.

  Erica D'Eramo 41:27

  Yeah. Yep. And chances are it's some state of being right. It's not. And the other things are the way that you think you'll get to that state of Yeah, but yeah, yeah. So I want to make sure our listeners can connect with you and learn more and find your book. So where can they find you? What's what are the ways that you have folks connect with you.

  Rebecca Arnold 41:53

  So you can find me at route with two O's, coaching consulting.com. And at route coach on Instagram, and then my book, The routed renegade will be available on any platform, you're sort of looking for June 10, and beyond. So I am thrilled to launch this into the world. And there are so many practices built into that. But there are over 50 practices in that book. And it's sort of my offering love letter to the world opportunity to have folks have a guide book to support you as you go through your journey, that the biggest compliment to me would be a having my books binding cracked dog ear. So my hope is that any of you who pick it up, we'll turn to it again. And again, when you're wrestling with different things, trying to articulate what you want looking for different practices, there's so much in there. And I would love to hear from any of your audience that it resonates with and, and all of that. So thank you for for pointing your audience there.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:59

  Yeah, absolutely. And we'll link to link to your accounts and how folks can connect with you. And we'll be sure to include it in our monthly book list as well. So, so yeah, for anyone looking to find those links, you can find them in the show notes. You can find them on our website, or this podcast episode. And that's at twopiersconsulting.com. And again, thank you so much, Rebecca, for coming on and sharing all your insights and in frameworks really, really appreciate it.

  Rebecca Arnold 43:29

  Of course it was it has been a delight.

  Erica D'Eramo 43:32

  And we look forward to seeing everyone next episode.

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Rebecca Arnold is a professional, certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching & Consulting, LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She’s also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo & Unleash Your Legacy (Greenleaf Book Group, June 10, 2024). The book is part call to action, part roadmap, and part step-by-step guide to creating a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. 

Her clients are mission-driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social-impact organizations. An attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. 

But more importantly, she’s known as a “straight-talkin’, big-hearted” coach. In addition, Rebecca is a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. 

She was a Presidential Management Fellow at the US Department of Education and a special assistant to the Assistant Secretary for Career, Technical, and Adult Education. In those positions, she focused on reform initiatives for high schools and community colleges. She has worked with numerous social-impact organizations in the education and social justice arenas. She holds a JD from Northeastern University and a BA from Brown University.

The Rooted Renegade

Introduction

In this enlightening podcast episode, we delve into the realm of personal growth and leadership development with Rebecca Arnold, a seasoned professional certified coach and author. Through her captivating origin story and insightful discussions, Rebecca sheds light on the transformative power of reconnecting with our inner selves to create systemic change in both our professional and personal lives.

Rebecca Arnold's Journey

Rebecca Arnold kickstarts the conversation by narrating her journey from being a burned-out professional in the policy realm to finding her true calling as a coach. Drawing from her psychology roots, she shares how embracing her passion for coaching has not only revitalized her own career but also empowered her to guide others towards fulfillment and success.

Discovering Rooted Peace

Central to Rebecca's philosophy is the concept of rooted peace—a three-part framework for nurturing well-being in mind, body, and heart. Through her work, she advocates for a holistic approach to success, one that transcends mere external achievements and aligns with our inner values and desires.

Prioritizing Well-being and Intuition

Rebecca delves into the complexities of prioritizing well-being and intuition over external validation, challenging societal norms that glorify titles and monetary gains. Alongside Erica D'Eramo, she explores the profound impact of acknowledging mortality and realigning our life goals to foster genuine fulfillment and purpose.

Cultivating Emotional Intelligence in Toxic Environments

Navigating toxic work environments can take a toll on our emotional well-being. Rebecca emphasizes the importance of practices like mindfulness and gratitude in counteracting negativity and enhancing resilience. By fostering self-awareness and empathy, individuals can cultivate emotional intelligence even in the most challenging of circumstances.

Harnessing Emotional Awareness for Stress Management

Rebecca and Erica delve into the significance of emotional granularity—a nuanced understanding of our emotions—and its role in stress management. By honing our ability to identify and process emotions, we can unlock deeper insights and pave the way for meaningful growth and self-discovery.

Clarifying Personal Goals and Desires

In the pursuit of success, Rebecca encourages listeners to redefine their notions of achievement and articulate their true desires. Rather than fixating on external markers of success, she invites individuals to explore their passions and values, offering practical tools for personal growth and fulfillment.

Conclusion

As the conversation draws to a close, Rebecca Arnold leaves listeners inspired to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery and transformation. With her forthcoming book, "The Rooted Renegade," she promises to equip readers with fifty actionable practices for unlocking their full potential and embracing a life of rooted peace and purpose.

Through Rebecca Arnold's illuminating insights and heartfelt anecdotes, this podcast episode serves as a beacon of hope for anyone seeking to chart a path towards personal growth, resilience, and authentic leadership.

Finding Support in Industry Organizations - with Attorney Liz Nielsen

• full transcript of episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host Erica D'Eramo. And today we have attorney Liz Nielsen joining us. So Liz has guided hundreds of families through the estate planning process served as their trusted advisor to bring peace of mind to their lives, and she is the founder of Nielsen Law, a small estate planning firm in Austin, Texas. Liz is board certified in estate planning and probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. She practices exclusively in the areas of state planning, special needs planning and estate administration. Liz also happens to be the president of The Travis County Women's Lawyers Association. Giving back to the Austin community is very important to Liz and TCWA as nonprofit organization is committed to supporting issues affecting women both as lawyers and as members of society. Liz is also board vice chair, President Elect of Age of Central Texas, a nonprofit organization that helps older adults and their caregivers thrive as they navigate the realities and opportunities of aging and caregiving. And on today's episode, we'll be talking about all things professional organizations, how they can help how they can support in a little bit as well about what we should be thinking about in terms of estate planning, and particularly for folks who maybe didn't think that they needed to consider things like estate planning. So we're really happy to have Liz on this episode to cover some of the topics that we could learn a bit more about.

  Liz, thank you so much for joining the episode. We're so happy to have you.

  Liz Nielsen 1:45

  Thanks, Erica. I'm really excited to be here.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:49

  So this is kind of my classic question that I asked everyone. But what would you say your like origin story is like, tell us about about yourself and how you got ended up getting into this work?

  Liz Nielsen 2:01

  Sure. So gosh, I don't think anybody grows up and says, Gosh, I really want to be an estate planning and probate lawyer when I grew up. You know, I certainly didn't, I had lots of things that I wanted to be. But I don't even think being a lawyer was one of the things that I thought about when I was growing up. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, when I went to college, I really wanted to study like environmental science, and wanted to be like a forest ranger when I grew up. But of course, I went to college in New York City, the exact opposite of where someone would go if you wanted to be a forest ranger. And I went to Barnard College, which was an all women college that's associated with Columbia University. And while I was there, I actually got really into human rights. And so I worked at an NGO at the United Nations with an internship there. And this was back in the early 2000s. And so I was really able to participate in things at the UN such as hearings about the genocide in Darfur, which was really sad, but also observed discussions with the Commission on the Status of Women and talking about the Millennium Development Goals. And so I got really into sort of human rights. And as I was looking at it, I also realized, gosh, we've got a lot of things here in the United States that we could work on. And so I decided to go to law school, mostly because I graduated with degrees in psychology and religion, with a concentration in human rights. And really, the only thing you can do with that is go to graduate school. So I decided to go to law school thinking I would study like constitutional law and civil rights law. And so I went to the University of Texas School of Law. And one of my first classes there, I think, like most first year law students was constitutional law. And I was surprised to learn that that turned out to not be my favorite class. I really like contracts. And I like tax law, way more than my civil rights and constitutional law classes. So that was very surprising to me my first year. So then I took a class on wills and estates my second year, and at the same time, I was taking that class, my grandmother had been diagnosed with dementia. And so I was kind of learning the legal side, which is very much just reading cases not looking at a single Will or Trust, but then also helping my family navigate my grandmother's dementia and their legal documents. And it was really interesting seeing firsthand just how much of a difference the planning can make on a family. And my grandparents had set up the super complicated a state plan. And my grandfather in the last years of his life, he was really, I guess, stressed about the plan. He didn't have Understand it. And he didn't understand sort of how the components work together. And it seemed like his attorney just hadn't ever described it to him in a way that he could understand. And my grandfather, he was super smart. He was a PhD physicist, but still like, couldn't understand it. So one of my favorite things about doing estate planning and probate is that I'm actually, you know, really helping people. And kind of an unusual way, because I don't think people think about, oh, gosh, planning for what's going to happen when I'm incapacitated, or when I pass away, you don't think about that. It's like, really helping, but it is like, it's really like, one of the few areas of law where I'm working with people who aren't fighting with each other. I'm working with people who are just planning for the future. And I just really, I really love it. But at the same time, I also try to stay very involved in the community. So that's one of the reasons why I ended up joining the Travis County Women Lawyers Association when I was a young baby lawyer, and have continued to be involved for for so many years. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 6:02

  I think that one of the things that drew me to reach out to you about being on the podcast was I just watching some of the materials that you share has really helped me understand that, like estate planning, we think of as something that rich people do, or something that only the super privileged and wealthy do. And I've been learning so much more about how actually, for many people this is this is something that a doesn't get talked about, especially in families that, you know, maybe didn't have this, as part of growing up, this was never something that was discussed. But then it can affect really anyone, regardless of you know, their their current view on assets or, or wealth. So I think that this is a message that I did want to get out there in terms of, you know, underserved communities, historically marginalized communities that maybe don't even or even just like first generation, folks who are now you know, going to university in establishing wealth themselves that they didn't grow up with a vocabulary around this. And they would never think, oh, I should maybe talk to someone about estate planning, because the language, even in and of itself, is state, it sounds like in my brain, I think mansion, right? Oh, I don't have a mansion. I don't need to worry about that. But tell us a little bit more about that. Like, what do you encounter in terms of familiarity with this concept?

  Liz Nielsen 7:34

  Yeah, I mean, I think probably a lot of people were like me, or I had really put no thought into estate planning at all until I was in law school. And I think that's true, I think, you know, there's a lot of disparity in our country. And between who's kind of talking about this and who's not. And I think some of it is age, I think when you're younger people think, Gosh, I don't need an estate plan, I don't need to worry about those things. And, you know, it's not it's not true. I mean, I think especially if you're younger, if you have really any assets, like if you have a bank account, or you have a car, like you have something to think about, and you might not need a big fancy estate plan, but there's certainly planning that you need to do. And I think as people get older, maybe they see their family members pass away, or they see, you know, their friends pass away, and they realize, gosh, it really can end up being a huge mess. If things are not planned for correctly. I actually had a client, email me today, sort of a little Client Testimonial, and she started out with saying, I don't think there's a beneficiary or an executor out there who says that they wish so and so didn't have an updated the state plan. I think that it's just one of those things that really, you know, everybody needs, and it's not so much related to the size of the estate.

  Erica D'Eramo 9:00

  Yeah. I also think that we can't necessarily predict when we will end up being involved in one of these conversations or, you know, named as a person who is suddenly taken care of, of these types of things. Absolutely.

  Liz Nielsen 9:15

  And I think, you know, a lot of times people think of estate planning too, as just being you know, your will just what happens when you pass away. But a really big part of estate planning is planning for incapacity. So like, you know, who will help with your finances if you can't, who will make medical decisions if you're in a coma? Do you want to be kept on life support forever. A lot of people are surprised the Terri Schiavo case, which I remember from when I was young, but she was, you know, in a persistent vegetative state and the doctors knew she wasn't going to recover and there was a big fight between her parents and her husband about what she would want. And a lot of times we were really surprised she was only like, 30 years old, like she was really young. And so I think, realizing that gosh, you need to do this planning. You know, and make some of these hard decisions, I think starting when you're when you're pretty young. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 10:05

  yeah, I remember that case. And then I also remember the, you're wrong about episode, the podcast episode explaining it. And I think a lot of people, the media latched on to that case, and people didn't really understand all the details behind it. But yeah, that's Okay. A lot of us can can remember. So tell us a little bit more about T CW LA, and what brought you to either get involved there or seek them out and a little bit about how that role has evolved for you?

  Liz Nielsen 10:39

  Sure. So, you know, T CWA has been, you know, around for a long time, just like a lot of I think women professional organizations, it was started in the 70s. You know, with just a few women, there weren't a lot of women lawyers who are practicing back then. But, you know, of the starting members, the founding members of the organization, a lot of them ended up becoming judges and really having a big impact on Texas legal history. And I don't know if everybody knows this to Travis County is in Austin, Texas, which is the capital of Texas. And so they really have been able to have a pretty big effect on some of the laws and just sort of have the culture of how women are integrated into the the legal community in in Texas. And, you know, it started out with they had to do a lot of, you know, really boots on the ground advocacy in Austin. And this is I think, true. Maybe in a lot of cities, we have a lot of kind of, like professional social clubs. We have the UT club and headliners club and all these clubs, and they are really a place where people will go and have lunch and do networking. And, you know, for a long time, women were not even allowed to go into these clubs and TCL LA was really involved with sort of allowing women just to be physically in the room.

  Erica D'Eramo 12:06

  Not even that long ago, right? I mean, we're no, no,

  Liz Nielsen 12:09

  this is like in the 80s. Like, really? Not that long ago. Right. And so, you know, I think back then, like, there was just very clear discrimination, right? It was just, you saw it, you know, in the courtroom, in the law firms in the government, like there was just very clear discrimination. And organizations like the Travis County Women Lawyers Association, were really able to advocate for women. And I think now, you know, things have changed. Right? I think that the discrimination is not as obvious. I guess, it's more like micro aggressions against women. For instance, I think one of the things that I hear a lot, and it's that, you know, if you walk into the clerk's office, and you're a woman, they might be more likely to assume that you're a paralegal than that you're a lawyer. I mean, those things I get still true in a way that, you know, it's small things like I get called Honey and Sweetie by older lawyers, all the time. Goodness, which is I think, you know, it's strange. And I think, I think by having groups like, you know, the Travis County, Women Lawyers Association, and these women, professional organizations, you can talk to other women and realize, oh, my gosh, it's not just me, I'm not crazy, like these things are still happening, and then talk about, Okay, how do you address them? How do you stand up for yourself? In which situations? Do you stand up for yourself? And which situations, do you not? And I think, you know, kind of navigating that, you know, constant maze of what, when do you stand up for yourself? And when do you not is something that by talking to other women, it really helps, I think, yeah, it helps to address those situations correctly. And, you know, I'm a white woman, I think, if you're a woman of color, it's even harder. And I think these groups like tcma are even more important to have that community where you can have a safe place to talk about it.

  Erica D'Eramo 14:09

  And I think to the it's even beyond the like, when do we speak up and when do we not and I love that this is not a given that we all just need to clean our place and speak our minds because we know that many of us particularly women of color will suffer more consequences for that than than people who are in the quote in group but also the most effective ways to do that, as well and like learning from what other people have tried and what has worked and what has been effective for them and what has not been effective for them so that we can hopefully pass some of those learnings around.

  Liz Nielsen 14:46

  Yeah. You know, what causes someone to decide to join a group like TC why so I joined it, you know, when I was when I was a younger, much younger lawyer. And you know for lots Two reasons. One, I had a friend who was really involved, and she invited me. And I think that really makes a big difference when you have, you know, somebody that you know, already there and you're not like just standing in the corner of the room. I'm an introvert. So going to, you know, networking events and things like that. It's not my favorite thing. And so that's one of the I found really great about TC FBLA is that, you know, people, if they see someone just standing there, people will come up and talk to them and ask him, How long have you been involved? What kind of law do you practice, like, we have a lot in common. So we're able to kind of quickly get to know people and have them feel like they're there in the right place. And they're with people that, you know, they can be, you know, authentic and real with. And I stayed involved, I think, you know, for lots of reasons. But, you know, part of it was just there was a lot of different types of activities, that T sail, who was doing, it wasn't just, you know, these networking mixers, but it was also legal education, they have a book club, they have a mentoring program, like a really formal mentoring program that I think is just really an amazing resource that not a lot of people. Not a lot of women have that opportunity to have a very formal mentoring relationship with a woman who has, you know, been there before. And I think that's just an incredibly helpful program on both sides. I think as a mentor, you learn a lot to get as much out of it as the mentee does. And so yeah, and I've just stayed involved. And I've just been, I don't know, I just feels like a place where I fit in where I'm able to grow, where I'm able to talk about things that are hard, but also just talk about, you know, our kids, or, you know, how we figure out how to make lunch every day, whatever it is, it's human parts that yeah, the human parts. Exactly.

  Erica D'Eramo 16:56

  So one of the things that I love that you've mentioned, is that you're an introvert. And that's important to me as a fellow introvert, because I think that sometimes it can be quite daunting to sign up to go to these events, especially when they're characterized as mixers, or meet and greets. Like, for me, that can be pretty challenging, even though I'm not shy, but they can be quite draining or just daunting. So tell me a little bit more about like, what advice would you have for other introverts who maybe feel like they could use some community, but the idea of going to a mixer or even reaching out to an organization is just a little like one step too far?

  Liz Nielsen 17:42

  Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that has really worked for me is just finding other people to either go with me or who are already part of the group. So that's really good. Actually, I went to a new estate planning group a couple of weeks ago. And I realized that a financial advisor that I knew she was also going for the first time, so we arranged to, you know, get there at the same time and sit by each other. And that made it just a lot easier for me. But I think also like going to groups that you think are going where there are going to be people who are like minded is helpful. So for me going to an event with a group of estate planning attorneys is usually a whole lot easier than if I'm gonna go to like the family law meet and greet, which are divorce attorneys, which I don't do it can be, might be good for me professionally, but not not as comfortable of a space for me. Yeah, and then one of the things that I do, and this is why I get involved in so many organizations is actually like, getting involved help. So if I am in charge of signing people in, right, if I have some kind of a job at the event, I find it a lot easier for me. Yeah, so yeah, I often try to sign sign up to be like the person that greets people when they come in, or I help arrange the food or whatever it is, but it helps if I have I have a job. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 19:07

  that that's really interesting, actually, what an insight and it explains to me why I am an introvert who loves hosting dinner parties, because I'm always like, in the kitchen, chopping veggies or whatever, but I'm in the vicinity of the action. So listen, and kind of pop in as I want. But I don't have to be talking the whole time. Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 19:27

  yeah. Yeah, for sure. I feel the same way. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 19:31

  yeah. So what, in terms of you know, you mentioned Texas, I think for any of our listeners that aren't in Texas, or aren't familiar with Texas, there's a lot of misconceptions. Like I hear folks who are surprised when I mentioned that, you know, Houston is one of the most diverse cities in the country, if not the most diversity in the country. So what is the diversity look like amongst the women's law associations that you're a part of Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 20:00

  I mean, I think diversity is an issue in the law, I think there's a lot of things that make it more difficult from the very beginning, even in law school for people of color to be successful and to want to graduate and then to want to practice law. I think it's really, it's difficult. And I don't know if it's getting better or not. I know that just amongst the lawyers, I know, there's very, very little diversity. If I want to refer a client to a estate planning attorney who speaks Spanish, like I know, too, and there's, you know, hundreds of estate planning attorneys in Austin. And so I think that, that diversity is it's lacking. And I think, you know, groups like TC who probably can help with that by providing that mentorship that will hopefully help people stay in the profession. So I think a big problem is that people will graduate from law school, even women, right that women are way more than half of all law school graduates right now. But they're much more likely to stop practicing, or to never even enter the field at all after graduating law school. And I think that's, it's a huge problem. And I don't I don't know all of the solutions. But I think mentorship I think, talking about it, I'm sure, you know, having di committees at law firms, helps to a certain extent. But I think it has to start early. I think probably even in law school addressing the issues. Yeah. And I don't know about how it is in Houston. But in Austin, Austin is a very segregated city. Maybe the one of the most segregated cities, I think in the country. Yeah. And I think that really affects the opportunities as well.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:50

  Yeah, I, I don't know, in terms of the different cities in Texas, what that looks like. I think that has been my own perception as well. Austin seems to have like the extremes and a big gap in between, like that disparity seems.

  Liz Nielsen 22:09

  Yeah, I think it's surprising considering Austin's so one of the most liberal cities in Texas.

  Erica D'Eramo 22:16

  Yeah, yeah. So what would your advice be for folks that are looking to join a professional network? Like, what should they be considering when they're trying to find that community?

  Liz Nielsen 22:29

  Yeah, so we've talked about this a little bit already. But I think finding, finding groups that seem relevant to what you do and what it is you're looking maybe to learn more about, or what your kind of what your interests are. And then I'd also look at, like, kind of what are the types of activities, I think some groups are more, you know, more networking, like, really, that's the focus or, you know, building a client base, I think others are more focused on education, whether, you know, in the legal area, there's a lot of continuing legal education that different professional organizations provide. And for some people, that's very important, and for others, it's not as important. But then I think third is just, you know, is the group welcoming, I think that says a lot about the group. If they are welcoming, they people come up and talk to you. And when you go to an event. I think that that's really important. I think that's something to keep in mind, if you're a part of a professional organization, right is to go and welcome new members, or if there's a face, you don't recognize, go up and say hi to somebody, introduce them to others in the group that you think you know, it'd be good for them to talk to you, I'm always trying to connect people to, you know, be like, oh, you know, focus on international law, so and so Oh, so does that or whatever, I think is really helpful. And then, you know, asking people to come back, like being really intentional about it. I think that really makes it a lot more likely that someone's gonna going to come back if they know that they're invited back. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 24:12

  that all that all makes a lot of sense. There is this consistent kind of theme that I've been coming across lately, and I've written about it, actually, extensively, I'll probably do a podcast episode on it. But this idea that women don't support other women, or that we're all like in competition with each other. And so I sometimes wonder if the idea of like a women's professional group, how, like, how do you counter that narrative in a women's professional group? Or do you come across anyone being concerned about seeing women as competition, especially in a field where you mentioned that, you know, pull through and is a challenge and there's a lot of attrition. And so, you know, the fewer people you have of that group, the more likely that they sort of get pitted against each other for the one spa or the, you know, seen as a sort of a monolith, at least at least that's what we're seeing. Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 25:16

  I mean, I think, yeah, I think that groups like T CWA really can help combat that to a certain extent. You know, I think it very much used to be I think, in law, right. But gosh, there's one spot for a woman at the you know, as an equity partner, or as a judge, you know, in a certain type of court. And I think that's changed a lot. in Travis County, for instance, we now have, we have 12 civil district judges. And in the last cycle, we now have 12 women, district judges, and many of them are members of TC why some of them have been very, very active as well. And I think that's not a surprise. I think it's this idea of lifting everybody up as opposed to just yourself. And, you know, I think that you I think you mentioned the idea of you no lifting the ladder up, right, once you get up to the top. And I think that's changed, I think now, you know, at least here in Travis County, or with the Travis County Women Lawyers Association, right. It's not even a ladder, right. Like we're helping to build a staircase up. And we're not all the way there. Don't get me wrong. But I think I think by working together, we're a lot more likely to get there. Makes me think of I think was Sandra Day O'Connor, who said no, maybe it was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who said that, when will there be enough women on the Supreme Court? Not until there's nine. And I think it's true, I think we're going to get there in some areas faster than others. But hopefully, groups like Travis County, when Lawyers Association, other women's group across the country will will really lead the charge on that. And that, you know, growth of women in the very top positions in their fields.

  Erica D'Eramo 27:17

  I love that that quote. And I think it was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but I love it because like the follow up was the follow up from the interviewer was like, well, don't you think that's too many? Because that's, that's also not equitable. And her response was essentially like, but you've had nine men the whole time, and nobody thought it was inequitable. So this is, once we have nine women and nobody blinks an eye at it, then we'll know that we've actually achieved equity, normalization of just seeing women in these spaces to the point that we aren't shocked by by the numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so switching gears a little bit, and maybe going back to sort of where we started, what do you think folks should be thinking about in terms of, you know, planning, whether we call it estate planning, planning for the future? And, and just in terms of some of the work that you do?

  Liz Nielsen 28:11

  Yeah. So you know, I think that when people think about estate planning, and we kind of mentioned this already, right, there's sort of the two sides of it. There's the incapacity planning side, and then planning for what's going to happen to your stuff when you pass away. And I think really planning for both of those situations is really important. So on the sort of incapacity planning side, right, typically, you'll have a document saying, like who would make financial decisions for you, if you couldn't, that's called a financial power of attorney. And it's super important. And especially if you are a business owner, making sure that there's someone that can make decisions for the business if you can't, so important, I worked on a case where a business owner had become incapacitated, and like, they couldn't even figure out how to make payroll for a pretty big company, because really, nobody else had access to it. So I think really thinking through that, and making sure there was a plan is super important. And then you know, the medical documents, we've talked about this, but making sure you have named someone to make medical decisions for you, if you can't make them for yourself is just so important. And then so we do some documents, like you know, a document that says who a doctor can talk to about your medical condition, and usually you'll want more than one person right to be able to talk to the doctor. Because, you know, in families, there's usually more than one person you might want your partner and your parents or your kids or your best friend or all of those people and you can have all of them. And I think that's really important and then talking about that the living will that document that says right if you if you're incapacitated, it looks like you're not going to make it and the doctor has to decide right whether or not to you know, keep you on live so to support or to have it removed. I think having a document and not leaving that up to your family. because it's such a hard decision to make in the moment. And so I think kind of, if you can make that decision ahead of time, it really takes a huge burden off of your family. And so that's sort of the incapacity sign side. And I think that a lot of times that's overlooked, when people think about what estate planning is, but then there's also right planning for what's going to happen after you pass away, like who's going to be in charge? I think that's a really important thing to think about. But then also, you know, who do you want your beneficiaries to be? And I think we were talking about misconceptions. I think one misconception is that people think, gosh, if I don't have any kids, you know, I'm not married, it's going to be really easy. I don't even need a plan. But it's actually the opposite. Planning is a lot easier, if you know who's gonna get your stuff, right. If it's really obvious, it's gonna go to my, my spouse, and then it's gonna go to my kids like, that is so much easier to plan than for someone who's like, well, I support like 40 charities, maybe we can have a go to all of them. I mean, that's, that's a lot harder, it's a lot harder, have a conversation, I'm working with a family right now with a pretty sizable estate, and they don't have any kids and, you know, deciding what's going to happen to it, or how it's going to go to charities in a way that's gonna be beneficial to the charity, you know, leaving a charity $10 million, without any instructions is usually not a great idea. But people are also really hesitant, they don't want to talk to the charities, or because they're worried that oh, my gosh, they're just going to harass me for money for the rest of my life. If I tell them, I'm going to do this, and I work with a lot of development officers at, you know, different nonprofits or universities. And they assure me that if we tell them, gosh, don't please do not contact my clients, except for helping them plan this one gift after they passed away. They promised me that they will honor that. And I do believe them on that, because they have a lot of motivation to make sure that they are going to get that gift that we're talking about. But I think, yeah, it's planning for people that that don't have kids much, much harder. But even if you do have kids, it's really important, of course, especially if you have minor children, they can't receive money out rights, you need to think about that, and who you want to be in charge, on that end, to naming guardianship documents for your kids. And so deciding, you know, who do you want them to live with? What do you want to raise them if you couldn't do it yourself? Really hard things to think about. But just so important, and truly just one of the biggest gifts that you can give your family is a well planned estate. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 32:38

  I think something else that people don't necessarily consider is if they have a family member who is perhaps like receiving state support for disability or, you know, the things become more complex, because you might end up causing unintended consequences by just, you know, handing over a large sum of money to them. And it might actually change their situation in a way that they hadn't expected or planned in terms of the support or resources that they're eligible for, at that point. So,

  Liz Nielsen 33:13

  yeah, I think that's a really good point, I do a lot of planning for families that have children with special needs. And I think, planning in a smart way, it can make a huge difference. Because even if, you know, sometimes families think, Gosh, I've got enough assets that we aren't going to have to worry about governmental benefits like, gosh, you just don't know. Because medical needs change for people. But also, you know, sometimes money doesn't go quite as far as you think it's going to go. And yeah, I think that making sure that you're doing that smart planning is, it's just so important. And it's not so hard to do it on the planning side, but it's really hard to recreate it after someone's passed away. And I didn't end up doing a lot of that kind of trying to figure out Okay, how can we keep this child on benefits that really needs it for their health care? When they received you know, $100,000 from their great aunt, it's challenging, and that really, a little bit of planning can avoid that situation altogether?

  Erica D'Eramo 34:18

  Yeah. So for folks who maybe feel like they wouldn't know where to start, or, you know, they don't know anyone who does this work or, you know, are worried about the cost involved, the upfront and cost involved, like what resources are available, or where would you point them to start as a first step?

  Liz Nielsen 34:37

  Sure. So you know, I think my life and we put out a lot of really great content on this. We have some videos on our website or websites, estate plan. atx.com We have some videos we have a really thorough blog we've been blogging for I don't know Six years twice a week. So we have blogs on pretty much any topic. And you can search through those and find really almost anything that you would want to. We have some videos, we also on our LinkedIn, we post videos on a weekly basis, that just covers some of the basics of estate planning. And let's see what is my LinkedIn, it's Liz dash, Nielsen dash attorney. And so there's some really great content there. We are also working on a podcast. And so we'll have that linked on our website and on our LinkedIn as well. But then, sort of in your local community, I think, looking for board certified or whatever the version of that in your state is really important in Texas to become a board certified attorney, it's, it's really hard. And so it really shows it's an attorney who all they practice is estate planning and probate. And I think for most people, if you can find someone who's a specialist in the field, that's probably a better choice. I'm certainly in some smaller communities, that's not possible. But if you live in a relatively large city, you should be able to find somebody who really focuses in this area of law. And I think that can really help get you started. And then when you call, I would just ask about pricing, we're really transparent about it. And um, we do most of our Estate Planning on a flat price basis. So we have a pretty good idea of what it's going to be and we send out sort of a little handout that just kind of goes over what are the ranges? What can you expect? And I think a lot of attorneys are able to do that as well. So I think just asking questions. When I'm working with a client, I love working with clients who ask questions, as opposed to ones who just kind of sit there quietly and don't I think being engaged in the process is going to make it more fun for you, but also make it so you really understand, you know, what, what documents you're putting together and what you're assigning at the end.

  Erica D'Eramo 36:54

  So there are I have, like, I have to ask this because I feel like it would be at the top of everybody's mind. There are services out there where you can just like log on and put your details in. And they'll spit out some documents for you. Any thoughts that you want to share on?

  Liz Nielsen 37:09

  Yes,

  Erica D'Eramo 37:11

  what you've seen?

  Liz Nielsen 37:13

  Yeah, so you know, in addition to doing estate planning, I also do probate which is where we're going through that legal process after someone passes away. And a lot of times people have wills, which then we have to take to the probate court and have a judge declare, it's valid. And a lot of times we get to probate wills that people have done on their own. We call them the DIY wills, whether it is they've gone on the internet and printed something off, or they, you know, used to be people would go to the library and photocopy them. So we see that sometimes or sometimes people will just handwrite their wills, which you're allowed to do here in Texas. And I will say that I have never dealt with a DIY will that did not have some issue that made it more difficult to probate, whether it's not clear on who the beneficiary is. It doesn't name the executor in the correct way here in Texas, we have something called independent administration, but you have to put that in your will if you want it and a lot of the forms don't include that. Or, you know, the biggest issue I see actually are just wills not signed correctly, here in Texas, and I think in most states is a very specific way that you have to sign the will. And if it's not done correctly, it's just that much harder to probate and putting that much more stress on your family. So yeah, I generally do not recommend the DIY wills, although, you know, if all I'm doing is business development, they're great, because then we can make a lot more money on the probate side.

  Erica D'Eramo 38:47

  Well, yes. I appreciate that transparency. But yes. Sounds like not something that you would recommend for your loved ones.

  Liz Nielsen 38:56

  It's really not.

  Erica D'Eramo 39:00

  But I do think for folks who maybe feel like reaching out to a human being might either be cost prohibitive or that, you know, there are resources available. It sounds like many of those might not be quite fit for purpose to the extent that, you know, they would do the job that is intended. I

  Liz Nielsen 39:18

  think that's right, I know that. And Harun asked, I think a lot of communities, there's a lot of clinics for people who truly can't afford estate planning, pro bono clinics, and I'd say you know, if, if you qualify, I would absolutely take advantage of that here. We have veterans legal clinics where we will do estate planning for veterans. We also have volunteer legal services where they'll connect you with another attorney with an attorney who's able to do that planning and we also have something called the cam Law Clinic, which does estate planning for people who have been diagnosed with cancer to take that one stress off of them. And so I think a lot of communities have these types of resources and I would absolutely I look forward, if that's something that you need.

  Erica D'Eramo 40:02

  Yeah, yeah, that's really great to know, to kind of look out there for what's available versus trying to take that on yourself, and maybe not getting it right, because you didn't have to go through all the law school. So I really appreciate you sharing your insights, both in terms of professional organizations and professional organizations that support women specifically. And then also in terms of planning and what people can be thinking about as, as they're looking at that and kind of debunking some of the myths there. What key lessons would you want our listeners to take away today? Did you have any final thoughts?

  Liz Nielsen 40:43

  Gosh, I think you know, from our conversation, a couple of things that kind of come to mind. One is, I think, just, you know, lifting people up, if you're a minority in an organization, just making sure you're focused on, you know, being collaborative, and helping lift people up, as opposed to kind of just on your own trying to always get to the top, I think we will always do better when we do it together. I think mentoring I think if you are younger, seeking out a mentee, if you're more experienced, being a mentor, maybe having both types of relationships. I know I do, where I certainly do a lot of mentoring, but I'm so appreciative to the people that continue to mentor me. And I think seeking that out is great. And whether you do it through you know, professional organization like Travis County Women Lawyers Association, or you do it, you know, at the company where you work or just kind of informally by reaching out, I, I often end up mentoring, discuss people reach out and ask if I want to have coffee to share with them about my journey, and I'm able to, you know, develop those relationships, which I really, really like. And then I think on the planning side, I think just, you know, not being afraid of estate planning. But instead, you know, learning about it before you start on the process. I find my clients that are educated about estate planning just tend to be better clients for me, but also they end up having better estate plans at the hand. So I think educating yourself but then going to an attorney and having an attorney on help with getting your plan put together is a really it's just really important. It's a really, as I said before, it's a gift for your family when you when you do

  Erica D'Eramo 42:39

  that. Yeah, rather than it being something that you really should or have to do this is something an opportunity for you to make life easier for people that you love. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I again, really appreciate all the free resources that you put out there as well. So in the show notes, and within the transcript will be linking to both your LinkedIn profile will link to your your firm's website. And so people can go and find some of the resources that you've already made available in terms of videos and blogs, and soon to be a podcast which Welcome to the podcasting world. And for anyone that is looking for more of our episodes or the transcript for this episode, you can find that on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And thanks again for joining us today. Liz really appreciated.

  Liz Nielsen 43:37

  Absolutely. Thank you so much, Erica for having me. Yeah, and

  Erica D'Eramo 43:42

  we look forward to seeing our listeners next episode.

  
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Attorney Liz Nielsen has guided hundreds of families through the estate planning process, serving as their trusted advisor to bring peace of mind to their lives. She is the founder of Nielsen Law, a small estate planning law firm in Austin, Texas.  Liz is Board Certified in Estate Planning and Probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. She practices exclusively in the areas of estate planning, special needs planning, and estate administration.

Liz is also President of the Travis County Women Lawyers Association. Giving back to the Austin community is very important to Liz. TCWLA is a nonprofit organization that is committed to supporting issues affecting women both as lawyers and as members of society.  Liz is also Board Vice Chair/President-Elect of AGE of Central Texas, a nonprofit organization that helps older adults and their caregivers thrive as they navigate the realities and opportunities of aging and caregiving.

Finding Support in industry Organizations

In this episode, Liz shares some of the ways that industry organizations such as TCWLA are supporting working professionals and advancing opportunities and change. She also shares her insights on what to look for when considering whether to join an organization and how to get the most benefit from your participation. Lastly, Liz shares some insights into the work she does in helping individuals and families through estate planning. She busts some myths about who this planning applies to and what it entails.

Liz Nielsen's Journey: From Environmental Science to Estate Planning

Liz Nielsen shares her personal journey, tracing her path from studying environmental science to becoming a dedicated estate planning and probate lawyer. She emphasizes her passion for assisting clients through complex legal matters, inspired by her own family's experiences navigating her grandmother's dementia.

Making Estate Planning Accessible to All

Host Erica D'Eramo and Liz highlight the widespread lack of awareness about estate planning, particularly in underserved communities. They stress that estate planning isn't solely for the wealthy; even younger individuals with assets should plan for the future to avoid complications.

Women's Rights and Advocacy in Law

The conversation shifts to women's professional organizations, focusing on TCWLA, a significant advocate for women in the Texas legal community since the 1970s. Liz shares insights into the organization's growth and its impactful advocacy efforts.

Networking Strategies for Introverts in Law

Liz discusses her involvement in TCWLA, emphasizing the group's supportive environment for introverts. She underscores the importance of finding like-minded individuals and engaging in activities beyond traditional networking.

Promoting Diversity and Mentorship

Addressing the lack of diversity in the legal profession, Liz stresses the importance of mentorship, particularly for minority groups. She advocates for inclusive professional networks like TCWLA to combat stereotypes about women not supporting each other.

Advancing Gender Equality in Legal Leadership

Liz highlights progress in women's representation in law but emphasizes the need for further advancement, particularly in leadership roles. Erica and Liz agree that achieving equity means normalizing women's presence in all levels of the legal profession.

Smart Planning for Complex Situations

Erica and Liz discuss the critical aspects of estate planning, including incapacity planning and considerations for families with special needs. Liz emphasizes the importance of seeking professional guidance to ensure comprehensive planning.

The Pitfalls of DIY Wills

Liz advises against using DIY wills, citing potential complications in probate proceedings. She encourages individuals to seek guidance from board-certified estate planning attorneys to navigate the process effectively.

Mentorship and Professional Development

Liz underscores the value of mentorship in professional organizations, highlighting its role in personal and professional growth. She emphasizes the importance of education and seeking professional assistance in estate planning endeavors.

Conclusion

In this insightful conversation with Erica D'Eramo, Liz Nielsen provides valuable insights into estate planning, professional organizations, and the importance of seeking professional assistance in navigating legal complexities.