Reflections on 2024 with Erica D'Eramo

• Full transcript for this episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today's episode is gonna be a little different. This is our 2024

  Erica D'Eramo 0:15

  year end close, and it's a solo episode, so just me and the mic reflecting on the past year and what we've got ahead in 2025 so really glad to have you join us for this episode and closing out such a wonderful year.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:40

  So it's hard to believe that we're almost at the winter solstice. It's kind of coming up on the holidays, coming up on the New Year, the end of 2024 and I thought I would just take a minute to reflect on what's been happening with two peers, what's been happening with myself, and what we've got going on and what we've got coming up. So this episode is a little different. Usually, our episodes are really focused on providing resources, either for individuals, or kind of at a systems level, how we can make change and impact the world, to, you know, open up opportunity for folks, or really just tap into some of the insights and wisdom that some of the wonderful guests that we've had can share with our audience. And so today is a little bit less about resources and just more about reflection and what's been going on behind the scenes. I think last year, coming up on this time, I was really focused on, you know, systems and processes, and that definitely helped us. In 2024

  Erica D'Eramo 1:45

  we sort of had our calendar set up for the whole year, and that really did help to make sure that we were touching on the topics that we wanted to touch on, and reaching out to the audiences in the way we wanted. And also, you know, growing the different parts of this business. So at two peers, we have consulting work that we do. We do workshops, interactive in person workshops and remote, you know, virtual workshops. We do a lot in the realm of coaching. So that's both, you know, individual coaching, group coaching, sponsored coaching, and I also coach on a platform called Better up, which I'll talk about a little bit more later in this episode. But we've just been sort of figuring out how the pie is going to look in terms of, you know, which areas we're focusing on, and so we've seen growth in all three of those areas, the the consulting, the workshops and the coaching, and it's been really exciting. And I think that one area that I had wanted to invest in this year, which I'm going to figure out how to invest more in next year, is around, you know, providing resources like the newsletter, which we had done in 2023 and the beginning of 2024 and I just was not able to really fit that in with everything else going on. So we will see what is in store for 2025

  Erica D'Eramo 3:11

  but my hope, my intention, is to start sharing something more regularly around a newsletter. Except, you know, in typical two peers fashion, it's probably going to be less around what we've got going on and more around different resources that folks can tap into. But we did get really good feedback on the newsletter when we did have that in in circulation. So I do want to bring that back and figure out a way to do that in a sustainable way. If you're listening to this episode, then you are well aware that we have a podcast. So I do want to you know, like, congratulate all of our guests and give a shout out to my partner, who helps to make this podcast happen and edits and produces all the episodes. We do not have a sponsorship for this I've been approached for sponsorship opportunities for this podcast several times now, and I've turned them all down, which I think sponsorship is actually fine, and it's great for me, though it wasn't a fit, because I don't want to have to promote something every episode and I don't want this podcast to have to be reviewed by a third party and approved by a third party, and add that into the process of producing this podcast. So I yeah, I haven't, you know, maybe in the future, I'm not. I'm never, say never. If the right opportunity comes across, then certainly I would consider it, but it has to be the right fit and something that I truly believe in and would feel comfortable, you know, promoting with or without the podcast sponsorship. But right now, this is just, this is not a money maker by any means. This is just a resource that we want to put out.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:00

  There. We want to elevate voices that we think are saying valuable things, and we want to connect with folks who are just trying to find their their way through the workforce, trying to find their way through their their professional growth, and, you know, maybe make the workplace a little better for everyone.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:20

  So that's the goal of the two peers podcast, and we're going to keep this going into 2025 and I might look at doing seasons more. I think in the past, we really did like seasons and then took a break. But we've pretty much done this podcast now for the last two seasons without a break, and this year, we had a podcast every other week, except for one. So we missed one week, and that was the week that we lost one of our our cats, and we had to say goodbye, Mr. Nelson. And it was a very, very sad week, and I just gave myself permission that week to not have a podcast episode go out. And I guess, you know, I would encourage anyone else that's going through grief to get just give themselves a little grace.

  Erica D'Eramo 6:07

  If the only, yeah, if we only missed one episode this year. I think that's pretty good. But yeah, coming into the holidays and really thinking about how I want that to look how I want the break to look, how I want rest to look, how I want 2025 to look. I want to practice what I preach, and I want to make sure that I give myself grace, and I give anyone else the space you know, anyone else that's working with us, that's either collaborating with us, that's a guest on the podcast, that's one of our clients that we all have the space to pursue the things that both pour into our cup as we, you know, pour out of our cup.

  Erica D'Eramo 6:55

  So all that to say that we've been doing a lot. It's been busy, and I'm looking forward to doing more in 2025 and doing in a way that feels sustainable. I think coming into the end of 2024 it's been feeling a little bit full. You know, the schedule's been full, which is great. That's what we want. We definitely want the schedule to be full. And I'm so grateful that I get to do work that, you know, lifts me up and that I enjoy and that I look forward to working with my consulting clients and my coaching clients. I really look forward to putting on workshops and designing workshops and facilitating workshops. So I am so lucky, and I think that sometimes when you do work that you really, really enjoy, it's easy to just keep packing it full of stuff and, you know, just keep adding on without really creating the space to carve out. So I'm going to talk about that a little bit more, and the concept of rest. But first, I wanted to just look back on 2024 and we had some great consulting engagements with a variety of different industries where we looked at a range of different things, whether that was setting vision and mission for different organizations. We've worked in the for profit sector, the nonprofit sector, the educational sector and higher ed, and doing a lot of work around employee engagement. And I think that a lot of organizations now are understanding that the talk of diversity, equity and inclusion before is really a conversation of culture and engagement and making sure that everyone is able to, you know, I think it's trite to say, bring their whole selves to work, because that's not really the way it works, but that everyone is at least able to bring their talent to bear and show up as themselves to the extent possible. So there's been a lot of work around engagement, and even some change management and looking at leadership changes and how that looks as well. So exciting work that we you know, we've kicked off a few engagements in 2024 with different organizations, and much of that work is carrying on into 2025 and I'm really, really pleased with what I'm seeing in that realm. And then on the workshop front, we've done a variety of really cool workshops this year. Two of them that I'm super proud of were with the women offshore organization. So Tanya tar and I teamed up to present a workshop at the women offshore inclusion summit around inclusive leadership styles, and we discussed that at length in one of our podcast episodes, and talked about what you know, adaptive Alpha leadership looks like, and debunked some myths around that, and really looked at what sustainable leadership can look like within an organization, and then helped to facilitate a conversation at the women offshore annual conference around parental benefits and what that can look like in organizations that have a large offshore workforce. So that's for both women and men any.

  Erica D'Eramo 9:59

  When looking to become a parent, but what is best practice and how do organizations spread the word about what's available there? So really good discussion, really good learnings coming out of that that I hope will help to improve the industry. And then on, the for profit realm, got to give a shout out to one of our longest term clients, Gutier construction. They've been doing some great work around professional development for some of their leaders that work in the crafts and providing some Spanish language learning that one of our coaches, Dr Luevanos, has been helping with. And then we also present an annual construction safety week workshop and work with the women's group to talk about, you know, leadership skills and various professional development skills. And so I really appreciate that ongoing engagement with gutier, because we've gotten to test out a lot of great content and get feedback, and always really good engagement with them. And I love that. Now we're providing Spanish language learning through Dr Luevanos, who is a frequent guest on the podcast, so you're probably familiar with him. And then on the coaching front, again, I've been really excited to see a breadth of industries represented in our coaching clients. So you know, we've got clients from the energy industry, from renewable energy, from traditional energy, kind of creative arts and social work. And we have a handful, I keep a handful of, you know, a handful of slots open for pro bono work. So we've got a couple pro bono clients right now that are doing really phenomenal work, and I am so excited and honored to get to support them as a coach and see them have the impact in the world that makes me feel really good and hopeful. And so that's that's fantastic. And then we've also had several clients. We work with clients both directly, if they reach out to us, you know, we will work with them directly, and we'll also work with clients that are sponsored by their companies. So we engage with the company itself and put together a, you know, a coaching agreement and provide direct leadership or executive coaching to those individuals through through the organization. And then also in the coaching realm, I've been doing a lot of coaching on the better up platform. So on the one hand, providing coaching on a platform like that means that, you know, I get matched with clients based on my profile, and clients find me and sign up if their company is has provided coaching to them through better up and you know, I really I get to work with some phenomenal organizations like Google, Amex, Swagelok, Pfizer, Mars, like these are some of the organizations that I've worked with in the past. A lot in the tech realm, a lot of engineering type folks, and right now, a lot of my clients are currently federal employees. So whether that's in the Air Force, I have quite a few Air Force clients right now, several NASA clients and Department of Transportation also makes up some of my clients. So that's been really, really fascinating. I'm so honored to get to work with some folks that are very senior in their organizations and doing really impactful work. And I love it. It's just such a opportunity to meet people that I wouldn't normally meet who are kind of all over the country, all over the world, and getting to just have a little, a little ability to support them and the work that they're doing and have an impact in the world. And then I guess, along the coaching lines, I'm currently pursuing my pcc certification. So in coaching, the international coaching Federation provides credentials. And I went through my ACC, CR credential when I first got certified as a coach, and that entailed for me, I did 80 hours of classroom time, and had to do 100 hours of coaching, 75% of which had to be paid. I needed to submit transcripts for approval. So I needed to record coaching sessions with, you know, with permission, definitely record coaching sessions, and they had to meet all of the criteria for competencies and be submitted. And I needed to sit for a an exam that took several hours and and months of studying. So when I sit for the PCC certification, I'll have to take a new exam. So the exam has been updated, and I will have recordings, you know, of my coaching sessions that, again, recorded with permission that will be that I'll have to, we'll have to pass approval based on the different types of competency.

  Erica D'Eramo 15:00

  Seas. So that's really exciting. I joke that it's kind of like breaking down a golf swing. Even though I've never golfed, it feels a little bit like that realm of conscious competency or uncon what probably was unconscious competency. And now I'm reworking some of the areas that I want to become even better as a coach, so making sure that I'm, you know, taking nice long pauses, giving people lots of space before I ask them that next question, making sure that my questions are very concise, and using client language. These are all the things that I am really excited to keep working on but it's kind of interesting when you become conscious of what you're doing, and suddenly you can kind of see yourself as the coach while you're coaching. But I'm really lucky to be in a great cohort doing that work and improving. And I think, you know, getting feedback on my coaching pretty regularly, and I can already see I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm going to toot my own horn that I'm a good coach. And I say that because I get that feedback, and I also am so relieved to know that in coaching, there really is no it's a continuous learning, because that's what always keeps me engaged, is like something that I can continuously get better at, can continuously improve on, and so, yeah, it's keeping me very engaged right now, and I'm I'm really excited about all I'm learning and improving on. And who knows, maybe I'll go for the MCC at some point, but for the PCC, you need to submit 500 hours of coaching. So as I was telling up my hours, which I will have 500 hours to submit, I realized that I have coached over 100 people now, which is really, you know, I've come a long way in the past several years. So that was kind of an exciting milestone for me to realize when I when I started to do the math. So switching from the coaching realm and talking about the podcast, looking into 2025

  Erica D'Eramo 17:08

  we had some great episodes in 2024 I really loved our episode with GG Renee Hill about community. We had so many good episodes like, it's going to be hard for me to even name any favorites, but recently, we got great feedback on the episode we had with Eliza Simmonds around growth and discomfort, the episode with Keri Baker around the relationships we have with our bodies. That one was probably one of the my favorites from this year, but just so many great guests in 2024 and we've got several really phenomenal guests scheduled for 2025 so I'm excited. And if you know of somebody that you think would be a great fit for the podcast who we should have on, please reach out and let us know, and we'll have a conversation. And if you think that you're the person that should be on the podcast, and you're listening and thinking like I have something that I want to contribute and a resource that I want to share, or some wisdom that I want to share. Yeah, reach out and we'll schedule a conversation and and talk about it. And if we're not the match for you in terms of the podcast, then maybe we know some friends in in the podcast world to link you up with I do also want to give a shout out to Jan Ditchfield, who is launching a new podcast in 2025

  Erica D'Eramo 18:32

  and so I am guesting on that podcast as one of the one of the first episodes in her new series that she's launching around the business of good. So she's talking about business owners who are mission driven, focused on social impact, but not from a nonprofit realm, and rather from a for profit, but for impact realm. So we have a really interesting discussion on that episode about what does profit mean? And what are our thoughts around money and charging for work? And you know, what does that look like? And how can we how can we feel okay with ourselves in terms of doing the work that we want to do to have the impact that we want in this world in a way that feels sustainable for us? So, great episodes coming up, and we'll share that on our platforms as soon as that goes live. And then, in terms of the personal world, yeah, I I'm so lucky to have such a vibrant and full personal life. And sometimes I think, like, maybe I need a couple days off to just be a bit of a vegetable and and sleep a lot and read and so that's coming up over the holidays for me. But I've been getting up to lots of fun stuff in the like personal, but kind of quasi professional realm. So back in, I guess, probably September, so I stepped into the

  Erica D'Eramo 19:59

  Vice President.

  Erica D'Eramo 20:00

  Of DEIB role for the ICF New England chapter. So the international coaching Federation has

  Erica D'Eramo 20:08

  chapters all over the world. And the New England chapter, I think we're the 11th largest in the world in terms of Chapter size. And so I sift into that board position, and that has been really fulfilling and wonderful. And I'm stepping in following Thea Charles's role in the in the position, and she was in the role for two years, and I got to work with her as a committee member during that time, and she's been on the podcast, so I definitely recommend checking out her episode. I think that was almost a year ago. So beginning of 2024,

  Erica D'Eramo 20:46

  she was on the podcast. And, yeah, it entails, you know, helping the the board of directors for the chapter understand ways that we can be mindful of DEIB practices. You know how we can foster diversity in the chapter, how we can be inclusive and create a sense of belonging amongst chapter members and leadership.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:13

  And then recently, just last week, we, each year, the chapter hosts the Coaches Corner at the Massachusetts Gonference for Women. So last week, we were in Boston for that and there were 11,000

  Erica D'Eramo 21:27

  attendees, which is incredible,

  Erica D'Eramo 21:31

  and we coached several 100 people. I don't know, I don't know the tally off the top of my head, but we had a constant stream of people being coached by, I think we had almost 60 volunteer coaches from the chapter, which is also incredible. These are folks who have their own coaching practices. Maybe they coach in house, maybe they have a full time role and pursue their coaching certification in parallel. Maybe they have their own coaching business, but everyone donated their time and traveled to the Convention Center in Boston and and coached and did 20 minute coaching sessions free of charge for any of the attendees. There were some great keynotes. I really enjoyed the conversation with Oprah and Gail. They were pretty unfiltered. I thought it was really like a nice, humorous, but very moving conversation between the two of them. So I'm always lucky when I get I always feel really lucky when I get to attend that conference and I leave feeling like my cup has been filled. And then within the DEIB committee for ICF New England, we're doing lots of great stuff. So we have a monthly educational email that comes out. We are helping with some of the programming in 2025 so we, you know, suggested some programming in previous years, looking forward to that. And then we host a community of practice that meets monthly during the ICF year, and we also run a book club that meets quarterly. So it's been a great opportunity for me to chat with people about books, because if you know me, you know that I love to read books and talk about them with people. So that's been really fantastic. And we've read some great books this year. And then separately, I've also had the honor of being one of the instructors for the University of New Hampshire coaching program, so they've launched a professional coaching program to achieve a coaching certificate. And so I've joined with Thea Charles and Bob Green, who are also instructors on that so yeah, again, it speaks to the power of the coaching community and getting to collaborate with fantastic people on a variety of projects. But this one has been really fulfilling, and so I also feel really grateful to be able to pay it back a little bit because I had a fantastic coaching program when I attended that at coach race, and so, yeah, we are sharing some of the the elements of coaching for, you know, coaches and learning. And then separately from that, I've also had the opportunity to serve as a subject matter expert for the federal advisory committee that was convened to support the US Merchant Marine Academy. So really lucky to be involved with that. I've been helping with one of the subcommittees to just advise on ways that the Academy can improve for the future, particularly around health, safety and wellness. And so that's been a focus area over the past year. And then, outside of the kind of coaching and consulting realm, I've been volunteering as a tutor for English language learners here in Maine, which has been super fulfilling. The English language learner that I was paired with happens, happened to have moved here from Angola, which is a fantastic little connection since I used to work in Angola, and getting to know her and her family has been really wonderful. And also within the community teaching yoga, so I've gotten back into my teaching practice in terms of yoga. I hosted a six week VinYin series recently at Firefly studio in Bath Maine, and that was really fun. And then when I was in Houston recently for a business trip, I was able to do a little yoga pop up where we did a little benefit yoga series. And I had to cap it actually, because people were so interested in doing a VinYin class and contributing to the the causes that we had identified. So we had folks donate to either one of the local rescue organizations or to one of the local nonprofits doing some restorative justice work. And yeah, so off the yoga mat outside of the volunteering, I've also been working on re establishing my writing practice. So for any of my fellow kind of writers out there trying to keep up a writing practice, a la The Artist's Way, or Writing Down the Bones, I feel ya, and I'm working on it, and I'm going to try to get back to my morning pages in 2025 so we'll see how that goes. But the hope is to continue to make progress on on writing, and whether that looks like creative writing or it looks like writing for work, whether that's the newsletter or blog posts or articles might look a variety of different ways. Oh, and articles, yeah, I forgot to mention the Oil Woman Magazine articles that we wrote in 2024 so some great stuff out there, and really appreciate them giving us a platform to contribute. So as we come into the end of the year, and as as we come to the end of this episode, I just want to talk a little bit about rest. I know a lot of folks maybe struggle with this concept of rest, myself included, and one of the learnings that I've had is that inactivity is not very restful for me. So I'm working with that concept as we approach the holidays, and just trying to be a bit more mindful about how I go about doing this thing called rest. So I think that

  Erica D'Eramo 27:21

  I I'll be taking time off from december 24 through January 2. My calendar is blocked out, so I will be fully relaxing. But I realized that this year, rather than just, you know, try to do nothing, I'm going to fill that with reading, with some writing, probably some coloring books. I'll be doing some yoga. I am going to be subbing and teaching a couple yoga classes during that time, but I love doing that. That's a lot of fun to create a yoga class. For me. That's kind of a creative endeavor. I'm sure I will be doing lots of cooking, because that is probably my favorite pastime and my favorite hobby. And then I think I'm going to try to do some little artist state artist dates here in Maine, and maybe get out to some museums, go for some hikes, but we'll be doing some active rest, because I think this, this brain of mine loves to loves to think, and so I want to make sure that I'm giving it something to keep it active, rather than letting letting it just tumble around. And that's one of the great things about yoga, by the way, I was just having this conversation with somebody today, is that, you know, yoga developed as a way to ready the mind and the body for meditation, and so the hikes, the walks, the gym, outings, the yoga for me personally, that does help my brain sort of just settle down a little bit and and get some clarity of thought. So I'll be investing in that. But if you are interested in kind of thinking through the concept of rest, I would definitely recommend reading anything that Tricia Hersey has written. I've read the book Rest Is Resistance. I highly recommend it, but I'll be rereading that over the holidays to refresh my my memory on it. And then she has a new book called We Will Rest, and I just ordered that from the bookstore, so I can't wait till that arrives. I'm also reading Slow Productivity by Cal Newport. So he previously wrote Deep Work, which I've not read yet, although I it's on my list. So I will get to that. I think I have it on hold from the library right now, but that's that book has been interesting, Slow Productivity. And so I'll be looking to try to implement some of those concepts going into 2025, and then other books on the list. We'll close out this episode with a little highlight of some books that I've either finished or I'm about to read. And then if you either have read it or are going to read it, please feel free to reach out and we can chat and have a little book club chat. I just finished reading Who's Afraid of Gender by Judith Butler.

  Erica D'Eramo 30:00

  That was a very interesting book, not the lightest reading I've ever done. It's kind of, you know, a bit academic, but I listened to it on audiobook, which to me, I consider reading, I think it's a an accessible way for my brain to consume a book, especially because I can be doing things like, I don't know, driving or walking while I'm listening to it, and so that kind of helps me absorb better sometimes. But yeah, that's by Judith Butler. And go really, really explores the concept of gender and the history around it, and some of the discourse that's in our current society. And then up next, I've got Against Technoableism by Ashley Shew. So that just came available on my holds list. And then I'm going to be finishing up the humanity archive by Jermaine Fowler. I started that earlier this year, and then wasn't able to finish it in time, and so I'll be picking that up and finishing that one also finishing Black AF History by Michael Harriot, which is hilarious and striking, and I love the way he recounts history. And Jermaine Fowler too, like both, both of them do a great job of, kind of uncovering the hidden history that we weren't necessarily taught in school in a way that's engaging and entertaining and also quite striking. And then The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander is another one that I've picked up. And that one, I think that audiobook, is maybe like 17 hours, so I never managed to finish it before it becomes due again, but it's coming available for me again soon, and so I'll be finishing that one. And then up next on the reading list is The Resilience Myth, by Soraya Chemaly. And yeah, if you've heard me talk about resilience, you know, I have very complicated feelings about it, and so I'm really looking forward to this book. I think that society raises up this concept of resilience in a way that can kind of take take the focus away from some of the systematic issues that we face, and instead focus on individual endurance rather than true resilience. And then another one that's coming up on my list is Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. I've had it recommended to me by several people recently, and so I'm going to lean into the synchronicity and read that book. I don't know much about it, but it's kind of it's come highly recommended several times, especially when I talk about Slow Productivity, by Cal Newport, or even Rest Is Resistance, by Tricia Hersey. People have mentioned this Four Thousand Weeks. So those are all either digital books or audio books that I've got on the list and then in my stack of physical books that is either on my nightstand or on my coffee table right now. I've got Hope in the Dark, by Rebecca Solnit, so looking forward to that. Imagination: A Manifesto by Ruha Benjamin, A Life Impossible, by Matt Haig, who previously wrote Midnight Library, which I really enjoyed. So that one's fiction and then We Refuse: A Forceful History of Black Resistance, by Kelly Carter Jackson, so that one's also sitting on the coffee table ready to be read in front of a nice cozy fire. So that's what I've got in in store for the holidays, is lots of reading, hopefully some good writing and some good cooking and hanging out with the kitty cats and enjoying their company, and no travel over the holidays for me, it's been a lot of travel this year, And I'm excited to not open my suitcase and just hang out at the house and hang out with our chickens and enjoy our little neighborhood and go for some hikes here in Maine. So thanks for joining us for our year end episode and our wrap up of 2024 and a little bit of a view into 2025 and yeah, we'd love to hear from you. So if you're listening to this and you want to drop us a note just to say hello, or to say that what you liked or what you didn't like, I always love hearing from folks. So we will see you in 2025 we'll see you next year, and thanks for listening!

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The Search for Greener Grass - with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

• full transcript of this episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have a special episode because we are actually having two guests join us, both of whom are repeat favorites of the show. So welcome back to Yael and Adam. Great to have you back. Today, we're gonna be talking about the concept of selecting opportunities, opportunity evaluation, in terms of our careers and this concept that the grass is always greener and maybe challenging that a bit.

  So just to introduce our two guests, Yael Iffergan is the owner and founder of InfiniTalent Partners, LLC, which is a full service recruitment and career coaching firm. She has been in the recruiting field for almost 20 years and has guided professionals at all levels of their career to successful change and has helped companies to hire top talent at all levels. She has a reputation for setting realistic expectations and for providing thoughtful counsel. She holds a bachelor's from UT Austin, which, fellow Longhorn there, and is a certified senior professional in human resources. So you can revisit Yael's previous episode where we talked about some similar topics in terms of career changes and pivots. We also have Adam Forbes joining us. And Adam has also been on our podcast previously talking about, again, some career changes and how to make the escape from the corporate world. So Adam worked for 25 years, building a corporate career and marketing to other businesses and governments. He left that path in 2020, with a goal to try lots of different things including writing, coaching, consulting and working with startups. Now his time is primarily spent running a startup accelerator program for a large corporate and also writing a book and coaching people on how to leave their corporate jobs safely and successfully. Adam's book is out on July 2 of this year. So it's coming up quickly. Welcome back, folks. So happy to have you back.

  Adam Forbes 2:27

  Thank you.

  Yael Iffergan 2:28

  Thanks for having us.

  Adam Forbes 2:29

  Great to be here.

  Erica D'Eramo 2:30

  Yeah. So this kind of topic we initially were going to talk about, we I had approached you both to talk about the concept of taking big leaps, and how to prepare for that, how to get your mindset, right in order to take big leaps. But as we were discussing this topic, I noticed that really, the common theme that was coming out was more around, you know, viewing potential opportunities, as always being better than our current situation, like the concept that the grass is always greener. So I want to know your thoughts for each of you. What do you consider this kind of like bias? Like, tell me a little bit about where you've seen this come through? And how you've seen it show up with either yourself or your clients that you've worked with? And I guess Yael, why don't you start?

  Yael Iffergan 3:17

  Sure, um, you know, I think it's funny that you say, Where have you seen it, either with yourself or with others? I'll start with myself, because I think that informs a lot of the coaching that I end up doing, because I have been through this process myself, you know, my last few jobs I found in I would tell people, I ended up in another bad job. And at some point, you really have to look in the mirror, and ask yourself, if you might be the common denominator here and be the problem. And I think for me, I was, you know, I don't fit. And you have to really look inside to figure out what the real core issue is. Is it really always the people around you? Or is it maybe you, right, and having to go through that process? And asking yourself some really hard questions that you might not want the answers to. So, you know, when I started coaching engagement, I always ask a lot of really tough questions. Right? Why do you think you want to leave this opportunity? And is there a way to salvage your current opportunity? Because there are some really redeeming factors there. So it's, it's a journey for sure. It is not always as linear as you might think, like, I'm ready to go, let's go. And then that's in end of story and grass is greener. So?

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that touches on a lot of common themes that come up through the coaching that I do with people who maybe even are intending to stay, but are sort of feeling dissatisfied. And certainly think about their options. Adam, how about you? Like, where have you seen some of these themes come through in the work that you've done? And you've done extensive interviews with people who are at these career change points or have gone undergone career changes?

  Adam Forbes 5:19

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like, like, everyone, I suppose we all have this feeling that life must be better somewhere else. And when we're when we're not happy in our lives, at least. So I think it's inevitable that we imagine the world to be better somewhere else, particularly if where we're at is not where we think we should be. I mean, I think for myself, I, I've always had an even as a kid, I remember my parents say to me, Oh, God, you always want to do the next thing, you know, and I see it in my, my son now. So I think maybe there's something in the Forbes genes that always thinks life is better somewhere else than it is right here. But in people I work with, I think it's also really common, and she's saying this book to like, maybe 100 People for the, for the book to it's really common, I think. But I think the people that are successful and leaving, they take a much more realistic view, I think they recognize that life cannot be that much better somewhere else. So at least 10 per that. You know, that sense that it must be just temporary, temporary, by some a reality check or two that the questions whether it really is, you know, and of course, what you need to do is you need to go and do some tests, really, you know, because I think I think when we're not very happy, it's it's very easy to let our imaginations run wild. And assume everybody, everybody looks happier than us, don't they when we're not happy? Maybe they are? Maybe they're not. And, you know, you've got to go and really dig around a bit first, rather than just let that bias take hold.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:09

  Yeah, right, that there's that confirmation bias that starts to set in where if we, if we feel we need to alleviate a pain point, we're kind of looking anywhere to find that alleviation. That's why snake oil salesmen are so successful in you know, especially for intractable issue, if it was right, like really challenging issues where people start to feel hopeless, then it's easy to kind of look to some offering that somebody is putting out there and just see the good stuff in it and not maybe see the bad stuff. So what I'm when in the work that both of you have done, because I feel like in different ways you both sort of help people take that clear eyed view. I guess before we get into some of the tactics to mitigate that potential bias, like what are some red flags that you would say are an indication of maybe this like grass is greener thinking? Or what are some symptoms that might have you delve a little deeper just to make sure that you're getting to the core of the issue? Adam, do you have any thoughts?

  Adam Forbes 8:11

  Yeah, I mean, the thing, the thing that was always there for me, and maybe it's because it's sort of almost the opposite of the corporate career is having my own business. So I always wanted to have my own business, even as a kid. Definitely. When I started in a corporate life, and almost straight away, I would just, I looked at anybody that done that with real envy. And but yeah, I'd never did anything about it. You know, and I think so that's the first red flag that people are talking about things without having any experience and having a while and you start to hear the sort of idealized language, holding people on pedestals, putting people on pedestals, because that seemed to be living that life, and not recognizing maybe some of the downsides of that life only seeing the positives, the upsides, you know, so I would, you know, and Nick, sort of caricatures as well, you know, so, you know, I would look at these people like Elon Musk and Max. And sort of like, Oh, they've got it right. I've got it wrong. I mean, like, ridiculous, of course. But I think you know, when you aren't very happy in something, you do some really odd choices, odd observations. Odd. You have odd ideas in your head. And yeah, I'd look at some of these people going back a bit admittedly, and just think God, they'd gone they, they'd gone down a more interesting path than I've gone. Maybe I can get back on it if I do something different. So this sort of idealized language stare, sort of caricaturing people that you want to be Yeah, talking in a like a fantasy way that's not necessarily from realistic to the life you'll lead. Uh, you know, like for me? Oh, yeah, just gonna start my own business with three kids and mortgage just gonna, like, give it all up and go and start building something. And by the way, you don't even know what you're gonna build. Yeah. Okay, there's a warning bell. Yeah, it's actually more to do with what you're leaving, actually, it's more suitable you're leaving and really where you're heading? Right? It's actually the grass is not very good here. But then then then, then it's magic to amazing somewhere else.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:30

  Yes.

  Yael Iffergan 10:31

  Absolutely. I totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:33

  That rings true for me. Yeah.

  Yael Iffergan 10:34

  Yeah, you know, and when Adam talks about the fantasy, you know, that's what's a huge red flag for me, right? Like, I had an engagement recently with an executive who was who intrinsically had a problem with the construct of corporate America. And I said, Man, that's not gonna change when you go to a different job. Right? Like, that's, that's not how this works, you need to come to terms with the construct, or you need to start to make plans to go elsewhere, like a completely a complete left turn, because the construct is not going to be better elsewhere, right? Like, you can't change the way that leadership works. In an organization, that's just what it is, right. And, you know, he, for example, had expectations about what an organization should look like, and how people should behave. And I was like, you don't have any control over that, unless it's your company. And until it's your company, you got to get on the bandwagon, or, you know, figure something else out, you're gonna make yourself miserable. So I totally agree with Adam, it's when people start talking about these fantasy things, right? Or these idealistic ideas about what it should be and how it should be. And I said, Listen, you know, there is no such thing as perfection, you're never going to find an organization that has all of these things, because they're made up of people. And until the people report to you, you know, you have to figure out how to work within an organization. So totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 12:28

  Yeah. I think this, this part about the focus on the current dissatisfaction is a really big clue around, you know, that, that we're not setting ourselves up for success, if we're just trying to escape this element, and like, potentially jump from the, you know, from the frying pan into the fire, if we haven't painted a picture of what it is that we do want. So what would an ideal situation look like? And then, you know, like, how important are each of those elements, because as Yael says, like, we are not going to get all of them, you're, you're going to have to make some trade offs there. But which trade offs you want to make will be different depending on a) how sick of the current paradigm you are, right? Like maybe you could deal with really rigid structures for a while, but you need a break from that. So you want something a little more like fluid or expansive or a flat, flatter structure. Okay, so you could dip your toe in that for a while. But I think over time, and based on where we're coming from, like, what is important to us changes quite a bit. So what have you seen there?

  Adam Forbes 13:41

  I think that what you just said, that made me just think it's about being much more granular, isn't it? I think, we get a bit really, we get seduced by the grass being greener, because we we actually don't we keep it at this high level, this level here,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:56

  Like an airbrushed

  Adam Forbes 13:58

  Yeah, and so, of course, it's perfect, because there's no detail beneath any of it. And whereas we've got all the detail here, we're carrying all that baggage of how awful it is. And so yeah, but what you need to do, of course, is you need to treat both things fairly, you need to be honest about the things that are working for you here and are not working for you here. And equally some of the upsides as well as the risks of going to something different and I think as soon as you start breaking these things down often that's why we don't move to the to the grass, the new grass, the green book, grass, because we see through it and realize actually, it comes with some risk or it comes with some costs that we have specked out, you know, whatever he articulated described, and I think that's, that's that's why those things do stay in that sort of fantasy world because they haven't really got any legs to the just that just that their dreams.

  Yael Iffergan 14:53

  Well, I was just going to say you know, when you inventory, what is actually important to you, and then But it in the context of what is possible, right? Like, it is not possible to tell your boss how to do their job, not if you want to be successful in any way, shape or form, right? If you if as your inventory, you determine, for example, that it drives you bananas, so much so that it is affecting your mental health to work for somebody that you don't respect, you really got to weigh those things out, because you don't have control over the person that you report to. Right. So you have to be able to inventory those things. And either have a plan to identify them, when you're going in through an interview process, or figure out how to work with them, or how to say, I can't do this altogether, right, I have to have a plan for a completely different situation. So you know, inventorying not just the hard and fast things, right? Like comp and commute location, and industry, right? really identifying the things that are important to you, the things you have enjoyed the things you have not enjoyed the things you can deal with the things you cannot deal with, and really start to put those things together. So that you can screen an opportunity, whether that opportunity is entrepreneurship or not. Right. And, and, and reconciling all of those things with where you are at this point in your life, right? To Adams point like, oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah, you usually quit your job with three kids and a mortgage and just see what happens, right? Like, really being measured is important. And taking a a thoughtful approach is a good way to go.

  Erica D'Eramo 16:56

  I think I'm hearing like a couple themes come through here. So there's the one element of what we see the the amount of data we can get about the realistic opportunity is somewhat limited until you're in it right and you've both spoken a little bit. And we can explore more later about how do you get more data there? How do you fill in those gaps, because seeing the LinkedIn feed for that company, or seeing the Instagram posts for those employees or whatever, those are highly filtered, very narrow views of everything, that's good. And not everything is bad, or even people who have made large changes and say started their own business. They're not showing you, you know, the Friday night at 11pm, when they're sweating to figure out how to pay the contractor or whatever, right? Like, you're just seeing the best version of that. So there's that piece around, like accurate data. But I love the framing around the inventory. Because you know, coming from a risk management background, I've talked about like how I evaluated my opportunities, and it was in a spreadsheet, it was literally forced ranking what was most important to me. And so when everybody around me was saying like, "Oh, but it's so risky. It's so financially risky." It's like, yes, it there is financial risk here. But what are the non quantitative risks that are also here, and exist for every single opportunity I look at including the opportunity to stay where I'm at. And those risks included things like feeling fulfilled, having agency over my how I spend my time, feeling like I did the thing I was meant to do on this earth before I die, right? Like some of those things are very impactful. And the probabilities on them were really quite stark, right, if you look at it from that perspective, but anytime we have a heuristic or a bias, right, like the way our brain is trying to make these shortcuts for us, it can be really helpful to put some process in place to at least highlight where the faulty thinking is, so we can properly address it. And you've both mentioned, you know, the tendency to want to stay where we're at sometimes. So it's funny, we're having this conversation, because it's the flip of what we've talked about in the past, which is how do you know when it's time to leave, right? Like and get out? There is a human nature that says, you know, it's safer, where you're at, we don't like change, we know what the risks are here. And we're kind of talking about, like the flip side of that bias here. So when is it that you just want to get out and you're willing to like ignore all the other risks? So yeah, that heuristic works both ways.

  Yael Iffergan 19:49

  I was just gonna say, you know, I think that there's there's also something to be said for going on the journey, right, making some mistakes. Thinking you like a and then realizing that you hate a. Right. And, and exploring those things and being open to the feedback. Right? And, and that and that's how we grow and mature and do all these things. And listen, I am I am always supportive of people pursuing and prioritizing their mental health, right, if they end up in a situation that is not healthy for them that they cannot deal with, you know, the solution is not toughing it out. Right. So, you know, I am a huge proponent of that, but just making sure that you're taking a measured approach, right, that you're really thinking through those things. Because sometimes the risks are great, right? You know, it's one thing to go out on your own. But sometimes just leaving a company is a huge risk, right, you jump out of the frying pan into the fire, and really trying to manage some of that. So, you know, there's there's a lot at play. And I think if you take a thoughtful approach, and really think through what's important, really go on that journey, really ask yourself some tough questions, and ask other people tough questions, too. It can yield some really fantastic things.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:21

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 21:21

  Yeah, one of these, one of the women, I was actually the beginning of the year, who wanted to leave her corporate job. She was pretty senior. And she'd been there for quite a few years. She was really, really miserable. Worked, maybe for two or three months. And I actually gave her the, like a PDF version of the book before it was finished. Because she was I wanted her and she wanted as well, it's good for me to, to work through the exercises in the book. And after, I don't know, we went back and forth quite a few times, stay go stay go, they don't. And then then she said she was going to stay. And I think, but she was staying with, with more intent. You know, she was staying because she recognized she had done that in through the exercises. She'd done that kind of inventory of what was good about the work, she was more objective from it, she was less emotional, she'd written it down, and it was still there. The next day, she still agreed with what was there on a good day, and they're on a bad day, you know, and she and she saw it for what it was she was much more objective about how she how she saw the benefits, and the costs or risks of staying and decided that overall, on balance, it was better. But what she also did through that process was she saw that she could leave, she felt agency she felt choice over staying or going out she decided to so she we we actually didn't do that much exploration of the greener grass so much. That is more of what I'm saying. And I think people have said that to me, since that I've read read early copies of the book have said that it made them want to stay, which is like was on the one hand was like a bit of a oh god, I've really screwed this up, then if people read a book called Corporate escapology, and then stay put, but actually, of course, it doesn't really matter. I mean, I don't, I'm not, I'm not being paid on how many people leave their jobs, I actually just want to make make, make people not feel trapped. And if they

  Erica D'Eramo 23:29

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 23:30

  If they don't feel trapped, because they see these, the benefits, and they feel choice, and they feel that they could go if they want to, then great, I think part of the reason is, life is so sort of incremental, and we're just constantly moving forward, not really reflecting much back. And so we find ourselves unhappy, we don't really even know why it might only be two or three things. And if we explored those two or three things and found different ways to solve them, or whatever problem solve them or tackle them differently, or, or take different decisions with them or have those conversations with people that person hands on for whatever, you know, that is maybe a more short term solution to the problem that fits much better with their needs as a family and, you know, in your financial situation there is so sometimes it's not about leaving sometimes it's more about just like working out, can I make some adjustments to what I've got today and then you don't even need that green grass. You make it green where you are.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:37

  There's there's that element that you mentioned that is so hugely impactful that I think a lot of people miss and it's the feeling of choice, that feeling of agency of not being trapped and I think a lot of people forget that they they really are choosing to go to work and I'm and when I mention that to people sometimes like you don't have to do this job you don't have to show up and they say, Well, I have to, because I have to put food on the table like, Hey, I'm not saying that quitting wouldn't cause major terrible things to happen right now, if you were to just walk away today. But that is a rational, informed decision made out of agency that you are not giving yourself credit for in terms of like choosing to show up, because it aligns with your value of feeding your family of being a caretaker of whatever that is, it is still values-aligned. And I think reminding people sometimes that this, you are opting in every day, and you're doing this because that's the strategy you've set. You can make different decisions and take different, you know, costs and benefits into account. But this is the one that you've chosen right now to maximize, you know, the value. And I think people become, you know, the corporate world sometimes just makes you forget that you have that option to walk away sometimes and just reminding people like you or nobody is dragging you into work, like, bound and chained and forcing you, so...

  Yael Iffergan 26:15

  Yeah. But you know, to that end, I also think it's important that people work every day, to expand their option opportunities, if you will, right, I do the work. So that if you are faced with this position, that you're miserable at your job, and you want to go somewhere else, that you actually have the toolbox in place to make that happen. Right. So things like networking, you know, one of the things that I do is teach people how to network for the purpose of their careers, right, rather than other things. So you know, understanding other jobs, meeting people that have potential to be impactful to you having a circle that is supportive of your professional endeavors, right. So if you're sitting in your little bubble all the time, you're really minimizing your options, right? And if you decide to take this job anymore, I'm gonna quit. And then you're faced with, you know, conducting a job search via LinkedIn, it's going to be real painful. So yeah, really understanding that it takes a village as kitschy as that sounds right. And no, we're not talking about raising kids. But it really does take a village to move everything forward at every point in your life. It's your family, it's your friends, it's your tennis buddies, it's your church colleagues, it is, you know, all of these things that have the potential to be impactful, understanding their value to you the doors, they can potentially open, the journey that they can help you through, you know, really putting those things in place, so that when you need them, they are there for you, right, and they don't feel used or abused, right? Like, oh, you're only calling me because you need something now, you know, really nurturing a network long term, so that you have these things in place when you need them, right. So, you know, I always say companies should never treat people with options badly. Because they can just run for the hills. And so it's your job as an individual, to make sure that you put the infrastructure in place so that you have options.

  Erica D'Eramo 28:45

  Also, building a network while you're happy and fulfilled is a lot easier than building a network when you're miserable, right? Like, we've met those people where it's like, Hi, my name is so and so I hate my job. I feel miserable. Like it's, it's, it is tough, but I get like, I feel a lot of empathy for that. But I think it's a good point that, you know, don't wait to build your support network, and your professional network until you're sad and you want to leave, like do it while the grass is green.

  Adam Forbes 29:17

  That's why you feel trapped. It's the lack of options that you have. It's not as you say, Okay, it's not really that you're being bound to go into work. It's that this is the only thing you have on the table right now. So you have to go. So I totally agree. You've got to create those options. And because you know, it's not just about what you're gonna get miserable. Either the company may decide they don't meet you, and then you literally are going to be a victim. Okay, now I have to start from ground zero again, of course it's never ground zero. But you know, you've got to start again to kind of create those options. And I don't really know why people don't do that. There must be one of those cognitive biases there that people stick to what, once they sort of feel settled, they just don't explore options. I don't know whether they fear that they might, I don't know whether it's inefficient for the brain or whether it's that they've they're worried those options might start to tantalize them away from something that might be better perceived as better for them. But there must be a bias there somewhere that is blocking people from coming up with options or or managing multiple options.

  Erica D'Eramo 30:32

  I think there's a generational element here as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there is probably a million reasons. But yeah, the this idea that, like the loyalty is to way with companies and individuals, and you're gonna have a 40 year career with one company, I think, you know, like Gen Z definitely isn't viewing it that way. Most Millennials are not. But I think that that existed amongst a lot of people for a period of time. And it was seen as like, disloyal to be going and looking at options. But also, like, we got a lot of introverts out here in the streets, and we, right, maybe it can be exhausting to be meeting a lot of people and people especially that are balancing like their, you know, tennis or whatever, and, and feeding their four cats and medicating them. All the different things are balancing outside of the workplace. What I love that Yael has mentioned a couple times, like in the past podcast episode is your network is not just like networking hour at the whatever industry event, right? It is your tennis buddy. It is your hairdresser. It is the person at synagogue, like it is all of those people.

  Yael Iffergan 31:46

  That's right. Yeah. Not being afraid to have the work conversation with people you have a personal relationship with? First of all, we're multi dimensional, right? And so I tell people all the time, you know, it's Okay to talk about work in a social setting, right, at least helping people understand what it is you do and what that looks like, and so forth. And you know, listen, I'm victim to that, too. I always thought this was real poignant, I, I'm a yogi, I practice yoga on a regular basis. And I had developed a very good girlfriend who I practiced with twice a week for five years, before I figured it out what she does for a living shame on me, shame on me for not asking the question, right. And so it's just about understanding who people are, and what people do. And not just for yourself, but also so that you can help them. Be interested. Exactly right. We spend 40 plus hours a week and our jobs, there's no shame in asking what it is that people do with those 40 hours a week, so that you can expand your network, you can potentially help them in their situation, et cetera. Right. So it's really about being open minded. It's about exploring people, and really wanting to be curious and helpful. It doesn't have to be quite so needy, or inappropriate, right? Like it should be genuine, right? It's a huge part of who people are. So you know, where I always start,

  Erica D'Eramo 33:34

  We met through yoga, we actually met through yoga,

  Yael Iffergan 33:37

  We did.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:38

  That's right. Like just somebody who had who said, we "I think you guys both are, have some commonalities in your career paths. Let me introduce you." Somebody who didn't have any of that commonality. But they said, like, I think I know enough about both of you to say that you should talk. And now you are one of the people I can go to for data to help. Like, if I am looking at options, whether you know, for myself or clients, I'm helping clients evaluate stuff. You're one of the people that I can go to to help fill in some of the gaps because you have such a broad view over so many industries to be like, hey, what's the thing I'm not seeing here? What's the thing I'm not understanding? So it's not even just to find new opportunities, your network can help you evaluate opportunities that come to you and might look green might look greener. And you're gonna be like, what's the real dirt here so and so like you've worked in this realm, you've done this job, you know, somebody at this company like, what what am I not seeing? What am I not thinking about here?

  Absolutely.

  What have you seen Adam that works for people when you, when they're doing this option evaluation?

  Adam Forbes 34:48

  Well, I suppose most people have some kind of idea. I think of what they want to do, even if it's not But what they'll end up doing. So I mean, the obvious one is to trial it in some way to try that kind of option out if you can, you know, there are loads of things you can do there. I mean, you can go and sit with somebody doing that job, you can go shadow somebody, you can go and just have a coffee with somebody and ask them how it works. Or you can try and practice it in some way. So if you know, the side, hustle is the obvious thing, where you just try to do it along the side of your job and just try out some of those things. So you, you just start to try and make it real, rather than, you know, taking it out of that dream fantasy, and start to see and you start. I mean, the beauty of that is not only do you start to see whether it's viable, but you also start to see whether you're you like it, and and whether you're good at it, as well. So you start to get a

  Erica D'Eramo 35:55

  It's like a pilot program.

  Adam Forbes 35:57

  Yeah, that's sort of that sort of thing, where you're just testing it in the real world, rather than in your head where it is where it either, I mean, I've two things happened. And they were options, either you they live in this sort of fantasy world where that would be amazing if you only or you kill these things prematurely, because you don't know enough about them, or they seem they seem too risky. So at least taking them out of your head allows you to test certain variables. I mean, not necessarily even viability may not be the first one you're really but at least test whether you actually like the idea, because I'll tell you one thing that just sort of strikes me when when I did eventually mature my thinking about what it was to be an entrepreneur. And recognized that there are multiple variants of entrepreneurs, it's a spectrum like everything, I did start to see that actually, I was an entrepreneur and I had been right all along. But there were many years where I thought I was no good at this and failing at it and couldn't do it. And there are other people that weren't cut out for this. And I wasn't because I had the wrong, you know, the wrong kind of template to match myself to. And as soon as I modified the template, you know, I fit it, of course, because it was really just around me all the time. So I think some of this is just about, it's a bit like the networking, it's just going outside of your head to somebody else to the real world to test, test some of those things, you know partly what you're testing, it might be like maybe even was me for a while, actually, you're not ready for this year, you need to do some work on yourself, you need to do some other things,

  Erica D'Eramo 37:40

  which is the successful outcome though. I just want to be clear about it. Because I think like, with like with projects, right? When you're doing like appraise stage projects, no project manager wants their project to get killed right then and there's this bias to like, push it through, we got to push the project or no, that's not like the goal we're setting here with some of these pilots is not prove to myself that I will be happy doing this. It's the open ended question of like, what here works? What fulfills me? Will I have a regret if I don't do this? And if if the answer is actually I don't like this, or it's not viable, it's not feasible. I'm not cut out for it, whatever that means. That's a successful outcome. Because it means that you won't live with the regret of not having done that, because you answered the question, right? Like, that's huge. There's so much value in that. But we get caught up in our egos because we set the goal as being making this work instead of the goal being get data about whether I'll like, whether this will make me happier.

  Yael Iffergan 38:47

  I was just gonna say when you go about life with that attitude, right? Like, let me just, I'm just gonna test this out like, this seems interesting to me. Like, I wonder what's involved in this. And you go through life exploring these different options, and then you're open to both the positive and negative feedback like, No, I hated it. I really didn't. Like that happened to me with my college major. I was certain. I was certain, like my degrees in marketing, and I started my career out that way. And I hated it. Like I couldn't stand it. Right. And so being open to that feedback from yourself, do I like this? Do I not like this? Rather than going in with a idealistic view, like, Oh, this is gonna be amazing. And there's, there's no such thing as failure like that. Sadly, we might not like it. So I think when you go about life, that way, curious and open to possibilities and so forth, you end up having a much richer experience.

  Erica D'Eramo 39:53

  That sunk cost bias of like, I invested all this money or whatever it was, time, opportunity. So therefore I need to see it through to success? No, maybe what you did is you invested in the knowledge and the satisfaction with going back to your previous role, like maybe it gave you that calm to go through life and be like, No, I wasn't supposed to be a restauranteur, or I wasn't supposed to be a professional yoga teacher, or whatever this thing is that you thought was going to bring you joy. Maybe you invested all of that time, effort, knowledge, money, to be happy where you are. And go back to where you came from. So Adam, what were you to say?

  Adam Forbes 40:36

  Yeah, I was, I was thinking about the options in the plural, keeping them as well. Because if you're not careful, you create an option. And then everything has to that causes new sunk cost bias, you know, everything has to it has to work. Now I've given up everything for this. And so much better.

  Erica D'Eramo 40:56

  Yes!

  Adam Forbes 40:57

  To keep these things running in parallel or keep, I have multiples of them. I feel like that was I mean, obviously incredibly fortunate position to leave a job and get redundancy pay. So it bought me time, but I was really clear that I didn't want to just jumping into one thing. And you know, all the all the best practice about building a startup says, You've got to be totally focused, nothing else, you can't have a job alongside it. Well, it might be true if you're gonna go and you know, build one of these, you know, YouTube or something, but, but it wasn't really ever I was gonna build. And so, and the thing that I missed most was variety. I had one thing, you know, it was bigger than one thing. But um, so I said, right, if I'm going to have this privilege of leaving a job and doing something different, I'm gonna damn well make sure there's multiple things here. And of course, it creates a bit of redundancy, if things don't work out, which some of them didn't, didn't work out. But it gives me something that I now value more than anything, which is variety. To be honest, I value it more than any of the individual options, I think just has to be a half a liter. So I can pull choices I can make each day what I'm going to work on, things that I know, I'm better at, as well as things I know that are good for me to do, you know, all this, all this sort of mix of things. And, and I'm not saying everybody can live a life necessarily like that, hoping to but not everybody may want to either, but at least wait trying four or five things, I can get a sense where I'm most likely to be successful and replace that income that I was I lost through that corporate.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:47

  Yeah, that's like a coach's dream as well, because that's so data rich and a) it keeps an open mind to curiosity that's like such a key enabler that is, again, threaded throughout this entire conversation that we've been having, whether it's networking, whether it's options, but the data then that you can ask either as a coach or ask yourself is like, what activities am I most alive doing? What refuels me? Where have I been the happiest? Where have I felt the most connected? Whereas my like, what are commonalities in the groups I've worked with, that I've enjoyed working with? And there's so much data there that you can focus on on building the amalgamation of the things and understanding like some of those will be trade offs. But versus focusing on the things you don't like, right? Like all the things that you hate, that you're trying to get away from, that's good to understand it, but then always the flip side of like, Okay, if you don't like that, tell me what it is that you do, like, Where have you thrived? Where have you, like, gotten up in the morning and been like, Yes, I get to do XYZ today that's on the calendar today. And so yeah, having that variety, it means such a data rich environment. That's great.

  Adam Forbes 44:02

  Yeah. And the thing with the thing you hate reframed, you may hate much less, you know, so an example where, you know, I, I didn't particularly like working for a corporate so I thought, I'm definitely won't. I'll stay clear from corporates. But of course, turns out I'm actually quite good at working with corporate so but working in a different way, with corporates in it making a career out of it, but actually

  Erica D'Eramo 44:33

  Opting in?

  Adam Forbes 44:34

  Yeah, I feel like I feel it's playing to more of my strengths. Why would I? Why would I jettison all that experience I had, just for a sort of principle about something. Instead, reframe the relationship, find where you can add most value, play to your strengths, enjoy what you're doing, and, you know, and see if you can make a career or create an option that way too. And I think That's, it's, you know, it's a luxury to kind of step out and step away from it. But if there's one thing I'm trying to do with the book, it's trying to encourage that way, just that much like with your coaching, step back and say, How could I get what I need or what I'm good at, but just in a different way. And I think just having a bit of space to do that, because we're, you know, we're so kind of like, saturated by stuff that, you know, the job the life, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush notification to them everywhere, that we just don't give ourselves that sort of time. And so then when we're short of time, we're just in binary mode all the time, happy, not happy, happy, happy, you know, Sunday night, hate Mondays, you know, it's like, we're just living this sort of world like, this is, you know, is destined to make us unhappy? Or we do, you know, or we end up like split spending. Masses of money to be make ourselves happy to justify the misery have to be. Yeah, yeah, it's just so it's just

  Erica D'Eramo 46:08

  There's all this stuff about money won't buy you happiness, money will help you create the conditions, though, to do that, right. So like, that? Yael?

  Yael Iffergan 46:19

  Like, yeah, you know, I completely agree with Adam, you know, it really, it all comes back to understanding yourself and understanding what's important to you, you know, what Adam said about reframing the condition? It's pure genius, right? Because, really, and truly, you know, just because you leave corporate America doesn't mean you can have no interaction with corporate America in any way, shape, or form. Right? Like, I didn't fit inside organizations. But guess who pays my bills right now, all these organizations, I just don't need to be in them. Right? And so right outside of the confines, right? And so, and again, it all comes down to inventorying what makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? And then in what context? Right? And then how do I figure that out? And, you know, we kind of touched on it at a high level, but I want to make sure that it's, it's clear, I'm a huge fan of informational interviews, you know, talking to people who are doing what you want to do, who can give you straight talk about what the risks are, what the challenges are, what the benefits are, you know, understanding what different organizations look like, understanding people's pain points, people's happy points, you know, really getting in there. And, you know, I think that people think that it's hard to get those kinds of conversations going. And there certainly is a right and a wrong way. You know, like, Adam, for example, recently posted on LinkedIn, I'm looking to talk to people who have done X, Y, and Z. Who do you know, well, guess what, now that's a hot conversation, they're taking your phone call, and they're excited to talk to you and so forth. Right, expanding your network, knowing how to ask for help, knowing how to ask for connections, you know, recognizing that, you know, on LinkedIn, people generally are used to being sold. And that's it. But when somebody comes at you with a genuine conversation and genuine interest, take the time, take the risk, like what is really the risk involved here. Right, and being open minded. And

  Erica D'Eramo 48:44

  I think that's the piece around like, people like to talk about themselves. Like, we like to share our insights. And so when you're asking somebody, I think where we all get a little hesitant is like, am I being asked to do something? Am I being asked to invest in somebody, and somebody that I don't know that I haven't had any reciprocal relationship with yet. But a having that warm intro is super helpful, because somebody that can vouch for you that can say, like, Hey, I know this person, I think, you know, you could have a good conversation. I think that's really, really helpful. But even with a cold, a cold intro, being clear about what you're hoping to get from it, like, it looks like you have XYZ value or XYZ experience. I am looking at these areas, I would love to know what you know, name it, whatever it is, but not asking like for somebody to do something for you right out the gates, even though they are being generous. If they agree to have that conversation. They are doing something for you. They are being generous with their time and their insights. But yeah, we all like to talk about it to talk about ourselves. I do want to come to this point, about like, because I think we've we've all kind of touched on it, that I'm hearing something come through about this, like triage that maybe need needs to happen sometimes if we are unhappy, and starting to look at like, oh, is the grass greener over there? Like, what is the neighbor's yard look like? That question of sort of like what's in your control right now? And then, like, can you actually change the situation? And sometimes the answer is yes. At high cost, or high uncertainty. Sometimes the answer is no, we can't change it. And then the question is like, Okay, well, what can you change? And maybe it's your, how you relate to it, which Adam brought up. Maybe it's like, just how are we going to, like, the last level of triage is just like, how are we going to create a condition where I can survive and get a little that breathing room, so I'm not in that like survival mode, so that I can then start in a, in a thoughtful way, exploring opportunities without that pressure of like, I gotta get out, I gotta get out. So that like hierarchy, we'll call it hierarchy of controls in engineering, I guess. But like, it's sort of

  Yael Iffergan 51:01

  I would love to talk to you this.

  Erica D'Eramo 51:02

  What's in your control?

  Yeah, let's go!

  Yael Iffergan 51:04

  You know, I think, I think that I read this somewhere. And I was so profound to me. But you know, that old adage of, if do something you'll love, and you'll never work a day in your life, I think that is the most ridiculous thing. Because not everybody can monetize their passion. And so recognizing that fulfillment, for example, may or may not come from your job from the thing that brings you money. Right. And so if, for example, your beef is that you're not fulfilled, find fulfillment elsewhere. Right. You know, I think that people think that their jobs should provide these holistic, all encompassing situations for them. And that is not realistic. Right? So for example,

  Erica D'Eramo 51:04

  It's also not healthy, because then it goes away. And you're screwed.

  Yael Iffergan 51:20

  That's right, eventually, because you've turned it into your J. O, B. Right? And so really understanding what are the things that work can fulfill? And what are the things that work cannot fulfill? And then how do I fill in the gaps elsewhere, right. And so it might be, I want more time with my kids, great then make more time for your kids. Let's talk about boundaries. And honestly, like, I gotta tell you, the TikiToki is full of really fantastic content about creating boundaries for your work, right. And so you don't have to get everything from your job. And really understanding that there are ways to get what you need that don't, that don't surround the thing that brings you money at the end of the day.

  Erica D'Eramo 53:04

  Honestly, like, that was a realization that didn't come to me until much later. And it came to me only after I essentially said I'm done. I'm, I'm leaving, like, I'm gonna take what turned out to be a sabbatical. But once I said that, then I was able to create so much more space. And people would say to me, like, man, for somebody who's only got like, a couple months left in this role, or, you know, before you go off into the sunset, you sure are like knocking it out of the park. And I had to laugh. And it was like, because I've stopped gripping the wheel so tight, right, because this isn't my everything anymore. Because this is it's put it in perspective and in context for what it is giving me. And now I can be present. Now not staying up all hours trying to give it 110% And showing up exhausted in the morning and burnt out and like stressed out, now I have the like clarity, to show up, do my job and then go get the rest and recuperation than I need. But I think that you know that they're, after the Industrial Revolution, pretty much like people would like live in communities built for by companies, every they would buy from stores, that the company's stocked everything, the families would all hang out with other families from that company, like everything became, you know, given by the company, and that's shifted over time. But we still see the remnants of that and some of the language about like, "We're family." No, you're my employer. My family doesn't lay me off. My family can't give me a performance rating at the end of the year and or like deduct my pay. That's not family, and I don't want it to be family that's not healthy, right? Like your job should can't and shouldn't be giving everything like that to you because then it holds you hostage. Adam I'm sure you probably have some thoughts on that.

  Adam Forbes 54:51

  Yeah, I do. I mean, I just I feel like this is so true. I don't quite know what sort of happens that you end up sort of falling into this way of thinking, but I mean, I put a lot of it down to sort of, there is a sort of subversive element to corporate language, particularly that is doing things like the family. And the other one is purpose, you know, trying to get us all to kind of fit with purpose or company purpose, I just feel now was such a con, because I was, I was trying to, because it was such a big part of my life that I thought, wow, I've got to make it really count. Now, it's got to count for so much. And because I couldn't really make it linked to my purpose and its purpose, I think I always felt really dissatisfied. And leaving it all. I now realize that work much that I can say Yael, is about making money. So I can afford to do things outside of work. And it feels so refreshing to have that way, that way of life. But I think in a way, it can only happen because my career is not so bound up with it, I'm not so bound up in a career anymore. I don't have to feel quite so long term about it. So you know, don't have to be thinking like, when's my next move that everything is sort of bought into like, like, where you're going next? The future.

  Erica D'Eramo 56:15

  It becomes life or death, right? Yeah. When all your I mean, this is we've talked about this in both of our conversations that we've had previously. But it's like, when your community is entirely in that, that job when your identity is tied up in a job when your network, your support your like, your healthcare,

  Adam Forbes 56:39

  financial future...

  Erica D'Eramo 56:39

  ...until recently, your ability to feed your family, literally everything is in one bucket, then yeah, it does make it really high stakes. And I think that's why people stay past the point of being unhappy, which then again, so it's like a vicious cycle, right, like this life, the course the lifespan of the unhappiness, everything gets tied up, you feel trapped, then you become supremely unhappy and happy. And then it's just like, you're looking for any life raft to get you out of that situation, and might jump to something that's not as...

  Yael Iffergan 57:13

  Or you're just gonna recreate it, you're just going to recreate

  Erica D'Eramo 57:16

  Or recreate and recreate it. Yes, yeah, if you haven't done the work. So to kind of bring this into a landing, it sounds like really doing the thinking, really doing the self exploration, the self work, hopefully, if that's difficult, people can reach out to somebody like one of us to do some of that exploration to ask the questions, they can buy the book that will be on sale very soon. Can go through some of the exercises, and, and lean on people like us who have gone through these changes who have worked with people to help do that exploration, do the spreadsheet, do whatever it is, do the mind mapping that will will get you there so that you can really understand what shade of green you want. What are your What are your key takeaways? Let's start with the Yael. What what do you want people at listeners to take away as their like headline if once they walk away today.

  Yael Iffergan 58:24

  Really make sure that you're making thoughtful decisions based on the right information, gather the information so that you can make a thoughtful decision that will help get you to the place that you want to be.

  Erica D'Eramo 58:39

  Yeah, awesome. Adam, how about you?

  Adam Forbes 58:42

  I would say I would definitely say say the same about that get the information. But the the other thing that we haven't really touched on too much, but I do think is linked to all of this is be patient. You know, it took time to build this career, you know, you've got you owe it to yourself to take time to find the next step of this, you know, it's not, it's not a race, it's far better to get into the right lane, you know, or find the next lily pad or whatever metaphor is, you know, so, so be patient. And part of being patient, I think is creating some space for yourself so you can properly think about this stuff. And I'm not saying you need to sabbatical, you need to go and leave work or anything. Just find space, you know, walks in fresh air for an hour. Amazing what your brain can do when it's got no phone buzzing out, you know, children, annoying you, no work colleagues annoying you, just give yourself time. I mean, I think to be honest, a week or two of with some walks every other day. It's amazing what you'll come up with. I think the brain is so powerful when it's just left to just process things without all the noise we're cramming into it and and do that you're be surprised at some, how you feel about yourself how you feel about the world. And what options you may well have that you hadn't necessarily thought of before.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:11

  Walks, yeah, walks, like really changes the way your brain is the brain is processing information. The other thing that is tactical that I've seen good results with is that 15 minutes of journaling, like freeform writing to get the words out of your brain. And it's surprising doing that a few days a week will really kind of illuminate some things. How should people be connecting with you? Adam, how about you? How do you like people to connect with you? Find your works.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:42

  I've got a Substack called Corporate Escapologist. Substack for years.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:48

  We'll put it in the show notes.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:50

  Yeah, I've got Instagram. I've got LinkedIn, corporateescapology.com. And the book, obviously

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:56

  And the book!

  Adam Forbes 1:00:56

  Why the second I met mentioned.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:59

  Awesome. And Yael, how should people connect with you?

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:03

  I'm on LinkedIn, they're welcome to find me. My website is InfiniTalent.net. My email is Yael@InfiniTalent.net. And I invite anybody to call and chat. I always do a free 30 minute consultation. If somebody just wants some high level feedback. I'm delighted to chat with them anytime.

  Adam Forbes 1:01:26

  Nice.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:01:27

  Awesome. We'll put all of those links in the show notes and in the summary that we host on our website. So for those that are looking for that that's a twopiersconsulting.com Under content. So thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate you sharing all your insights, and I can't wait to have you back on the podcast friends as triple triple attendee guests.

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:53

  Thanks for having us.

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The Search for Greener Grass: Insights from Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

In this episode of our podcast, host Erica D'Eramo sits down with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes to discuss the intricacies of career changes and the pursuit of fulfilling work. This conversation dives into personal experiences, common biases, and practical advice for anyone considering a significant career shift.

The Bias of Assuming Opportunities Are Always Better

Introduction to Career Changes

Erica opens the discussion by highlighting a common bias: the assumption that new opportunities are inherently better than the current situation. This mindset can often lead to unrealistic expectations and poor decision-making.

Personal Experiences with Career Pivots

Yael Iffergan shares her journey of realizing that sometimes the problem lies within oneself rather than external factors. Adam Forbes, drawing from extensive interviews, notes that these themes frequently emerge in conversations with people undergoing career changes.

The "Grass is Greener" Mentality

Idealizing Others' Lives

Erica and Adam discuss the dangers of the "grass is greener" mentality, where individuals assume that others have it better. They stress the importance of recognizing and challenging confirmation bias, which can lead to unrealistic expectations.

Recognizing Misleading Idealizations

Adam expresses envy towards those who have started their own businesses, despite not taking steps towards entrepreneurship themselves. He acknowledges that idealized portrayals of successful entrepreneurs can be misleading.

Workplace Dissatisfaction and Setting Goals

Evaluating Alternatives Realistically

Yael agrees with Adam that fantasy expectations in organizations are a red flag. Erica and Adam discuss the necessity of being granular when evaluating new opportunities, emphasizing the importance of honest assessments of both pros and cons.

Prioritizing Personal Values in Career Decisions

Informing Career Decisions

Erica highlights the importance of inventorying personal values and priorities when making career decisions. She discusses the limitations of data in evaluating opportunities and the need to consider non-quantitative risks.

Addressing Familiarity Bias

Erica also points out the bias towards staying in familiar situations and the importance of overcoming this heuristic to make informed decisions.

Career Growth and Decision-Making

Exploring Personal Goals

Yael emphasizes a measured approach to pursuing mental health and personal growth. Adam shares an exercise from a book that helped a woman evaluate job satisfaction, leading to increased objectivity and agency.

Feeling Less Trapped

Adam discusses helping people feel less trapped in their jobs, not necessarily to leave, but to explore and evaluate their current situations objectively.

Networking and Job Satisfaction

Building a Support Network

Erica and Yael discuss the importance of agency and optionality in work life. They note that building a support network is easier when one is happy and fulfilled rather than miserable.

Exploring Career Options

Adam emphasizes the importance of creating options beyond the current job and addresses the fear of missing out (FOMO) as a potential barrier. Erica and Yael also touch on the generational differences in loyalty and job longevity.

Testing Business Ideas

Real-World Experimentation

Adam suggests testing business ideas through shadowing, networking, or practice to gauge viability and personal fit. Erica and Adam discuss the importance of self-reflection and personal growth in entrepreneurship.

Embracing Feedback

Erica and Yael emphasize the need to gather data and be open to feedback to find fulfillment in career decisions.

Career Development and Personal Growth

Data-Rich Environment for Growth

Erica discusses the value of a data-rich environment for coaching, networking, and personal growth. Adam highlights the importance of self-reflection and understanding one's priorities.

Expanding Networks

Erica and Yael agree on the value of informational interviews and expanding one's network to explore new opportunities.

Work-Life Balance and Fulfillment

Setting Boundaries

Erica discusses the importance of warm introductions and clear communication in networking. Yael shares her thoughts on the notion that doing what you love means you'll never work a day in your life.

Fulfillment Beyond Work

Both Erica and Yael emphasize that fulfillment cannot solely come from one's job. They stress the need to create boundaries and prioritize personal needs outside of work to maintain a healthy work-life balance.

Finding Purpose and Avoiding Burnout

Thoughtful Decision-Making

Adam discusses feeling trapped in a corporate job due to the high stakes of identity, community, and financial well-being. Erica agrees, noting that people often stay in unhappy jobs for these reasons.

Patience and Reflection

Adam suggests patience in finding the next career step and recommends taking walks and journaling to gain insights.

How to Get In Touch

Adam’s book, Corporate Escapology launches July 2nd and you can also find him on his Corporate Escapologist Substack. You can find Yael over on LinkedIn or at InfiniTalent.net.

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This episode provides valuable insights into the complexities of career changes, highlighting the importance of self-reflection, realistic evaluations, and building a supportive network. Whether you're considering a major career pivot or seeking more fulfillment in your current role, these discussions offer practical advice and food for thought.

The Rooted Renegade - with Rebecca Arnold, JD, CPCC, PCC

• full transcript for this episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have Rebecca Arnold joining us. So Rebecca is a professional certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching and Consulting LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She's also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo, and Unleash Your Legacy, which will be published by Greenleaf book group in June of 2024. The book is her call to action; part roadmap and part step by step guide to create a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. Her clients are mission driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social impact organizations. And attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. More importantly, she's known as a straight talking big hearted coach. She also happens to be a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. We are so excited to have Rebecca, join us today and share some of her insights on creating a rooted life.

  Rebecca, Hi, thanks for joining us.

  Rebecca Arnold 1:23

  It is a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:26

  Yeah, absolutely. So let's just start with kind of my typical question that I asked every guest, tell us a little bit about your origin story. So what what brought you to the Rebecca that we meet today,

  Rebecca Arnold 1:42

  So many things like most people. So I studied psychology in college, and I was deeply fascinated with education policy, which led me to law school to work on equity issues in education. And I worked in the federal government, which was a fascinating social experiment. And how big change happens and seeing kind of how the sausage gets made behind the scenes, which is probably a conversation for another day. And then after that, I had my two kids, and I was doing consulting with education, nonprofits. And I finally found my dream job. I was ecstatic. I was doing policy work in the education space, we were making tectonic impacts in education systems, there was brand new legislation, I was on top of the world. And you know where this is going. I colossally burned out. And I had a real crisis of a call this like values collision, where my values around social impact and education equity and all of that were conflicting with my own well being my values of family and connection, I was traveling a lot and not able to show up for my kids in the way that I wanted. And I really wasn't prioritizing my physical and mental health. So I entered this period of extreme burnout and kind of collapse. And through that process, there was a long healing journey. And as a part of that, I started asking myself this question of, What do I do next? If I've just experienced my dream job, and that is no longer an option? Where do I go next? It was this real existential reckoning. And I started reconnecting with my psychology roots. And I remembered somewhere in the back of my mind this idea about coaching that I'd heard about somewhere along the way. And so I took a class in coaching. And I, you know, that experience when it feels like puzzle pieces, just click into place, and it's your you have this like full body? Yes, that is how it felt after having this coaching experience. And so it was very clear to me that that was my direction, and a way to integrate lots of different interests that I have and support folks along the way, especially in particular to avoid the experience that I had at burnout.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:24

  Yeah, that origin story absolutely resonates for me, and I'm sure resonates for a lot of folks listening of you know, when you find something that you think is the dream, there is almost like an identity crisis that happens when you realize that the future you'd envisioned is not going to be the path that you're going to take. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really.

  Rebecca Arnold 4:45

  And lots of folks feel lost in that gap up trying to figure out what's next because we don't talk about that enough.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. Yes. Especially on this journey that we've set out for so so many folks cuz in society of like, you go to school and you get that you get your high school done, and then you go to undergrad, and then maybe you go into corporate and you go on that ladder, or maybe you go to grad school and you go on that ladder. So when you sort of realize like, Oh, I'm not going to stay on this ladder, Oh, no. What now?

  Rebecca Arnold 5:17

  Right.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:18

  Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:18

  And some of these letters are very long. I mean, the fact that academic faculty I work with have been in their field for 20 years sometimes and are on the tenure track, and then are looking at am I even interested in this field of study anymore? Which causes a whole reckoning with the choices? A person may have made it 25.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:37

  Right. Right. Right. And introduces elements of grief and yeah, and identity, like you mentioned. Yeah. So you've talked a little bit about what drew you to this work. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, what makes it important to you.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:55

  I have this sort of notion that if you know, that idea that the medicine that's needed for the planet exists on the planet itself, I have a similar thought about humans that if everyone were actually able to access their gifts, talents, the lessons of their experiences, and bring that unapologetically, we would be able to solve our most pressing challenges on the planet, in our communities in our families. But there's so much energy wasted with stifled passion, intention and gifts, that we all miss out. And I am so committed to people being able to access the part of them that may have they may have cast aside a long time ago or might not feel entitled to lean into and recapture that energy for their own benefit. And for all of our benefits. So that is what lights me all the way up. And I get pumped when I'm working with people who are ready to make the shifts that that might require. And I just love watching the cascading impacts of those changes for folks in their workplaces and their families in their communities. You can watch it happen. Yeah, sure. You have a similar experience with your clients too.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:16

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've I've been going on this kind of evolution in my coaching and consulting journey. But it sounds very similar in that, you know, I started working with individuals. And that's important, right, but I wanted to make system changes. And then I started to work with the systems and organizations. But I've kind of come full circle back to the individuals because they are the agents of change. Right? It is, it is working with these individuals who will shape the world. And so yeah, as coaches, I think we work with, we work one on one with people. But the point is that they have the impact in the world that they want and need to have. So

  Rebecca Arnold 7:59

  absolutely. And I think about the leaders who I support and the 1000s of folks they're responsible for, and their families and their communities and one small shift and how they're showing up has tremendous impact. And so it's so it just seeds, so much possibility for them and for those around them that you can't help but get excited about it as a coach. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 8:27

  Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So So tell me a little bit more about the concept of being rooted in peace, which is sort of one of the foundational elements of your, your upcoming book. So describe to me what that looks like, what is rooted peace?

  Rebecca Arnold 8:42

  Yeah, so I think about rooted peace from three, it's sort of the constellation of three different elements. The first is this idea of internal peace. So building the capacity to have greater resilience to counteract stress, whether that is through breath, work, through visualization, through connecting with what matters most to you. The second piece is existential peace. Are you living your purpose? Are you aligned with your values holistically in the span of your life? Are you supporting yourself in your day to day, are you breaking yourself down? And then the third piece is relational. The third element is relational peace, which is your relationship with yourself and with other people. And the way that I think about this idea of rooted peace is that in order to have this Mind, Body heart experience of everything feels right in our lives, we really need those three components. And my invitation in this book and always is not to seek perfection, because all of us are working in those three elements throughout our lives. But it's more of a framework for how to look at at what's working in your life, and what's not and what to do about it. And I am really committed to practical things. So there are tons of practices built throughout this framework to support people to have an impact in those three areas.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:18

  Yeah, I don't know how many books I've read that are great conceptually. And in theory, and you finish and you're like, Man, that was such a good read. And then you go back to life as normal, because there was nothing tactical, measurable that you could put into practice and start to embed those over time. So yeah, that's, that's great. So, you know, you sort of took your own journey and stepped off the train, the train tracks. And that probably involved a lot of reframing what you wanted out of life. And it sounds like that's maybe a thread with your clients reframing. So how does this concept shape your concept of success than or how you view success.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:06

  So we are all in the US anyway, swimming in a, in a culture that prioritizes Go, go go capitalism, top dog, all of that stuff. And we have, most of us have grown up with a traditional notion of success that looks like that. But when we think about the things that we actually want, so when people talk about wanting more money, for example, they don't want to jump in a pile of money. I mean, that might be like an interesting experience. But that's not what people are actually after

  Erica D'Eramo 11:39

  So many germs.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:43

  What they actually want is the experience that they think having that money will get them. What they're usually seeking is calm, tranquility, adventure, a life that looks that feels good on the inside, and reflects who they feel like they are. And so when I think about success, it's what are the things that are going to give you the mind, heart and soul experience of awe? And yes, simultaneously. And that's the thing, when I think about for my own kids, what I want for them, that's what I want for them. And I also want for them to know how to pick themselves back up and be a partner for themselves throughout their journey. And so those are some of the pieces of success and the ways that I look at success. And what my clients are really wrestling with often is when they have followed this, these long ladders that we've talked about, and they thought that success will be on the other side and happiness. And then they experience a gap of I am successful, quote unquote, and miserable on the inside. And I'm not Okay with that. I'm sure you're not Okay with that either. And when I think about rooted peace, the objective is to get people that alignment of the outside and the inside their experiences. Meech, yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:07

  I mean, I think that, right, that it's such a complex discussion, because especially in a right, we live in capitalism, and and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we need a roof over our heads, and we need food. And sometimes we can't take that for granted, especially with inflation and everything happening. And also, this acknowledgment that even once you start to meet the lower baseline, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we start to explore those upper echelons of it. And if you don't have those, either, you still won't have what it is that money or titles or whatever is supposed to give us. Yes to be holistic, right?

  Rebecca Arnold 13:52

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's also a piece that I see. I don't know what your experiences with your clients, but I think of it as like an atrophied wanting muscle for folks who are women and other marginalized identities, having a hard time even connecting with what they want, and what is gonna fill them up. That is not from external sources, but is actually comes internally and as deeply felt.

  Erica D'Eramo 14:21

  Yes, yeah, that was that's I just recently with a client had a conversation about, you know, taking a different role, and it would be a lower title, but it would give much more, you know, quality of life, but it would be a step down. But the pay would be the same, you know, and it was it was interesting, because it was like, well, there's nothing wrong with putting value on the title is Are you actively intentionally opting into that as a value or did is this inherited, inherited did somebody give this to you as a value because the structure the system, the organization, they A benefit off of you internalizing that, as you know, tied to your value as a human. But do you actually do that? And it turns out the answer was no.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:10

  Yep. Yeah. I mean, even in our language, right, like a step down, yeah, we're taking a step into a higher quality. Who decided that title was a step down? So it's embedded throughout?

  Erica D'Eramo 15:25

  Yeah, that was my client's language, not mine. Right. Like they that was? Yeah. Which is is such a signal to to win how we view that? Yeah, it's like, well, you know, how much money would you pay for peace of mind? And let's put $1 amount on that to, for you to see just how valuable it actually is for you.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:48

  Right? I mean, when you think about, sometimes I do this thought exercise with clients, like, what is this? What is this job actually costing you? And we go through? Well, I have to go to the doctor three times a year to check on this thing. That is, I'm not paying any attention to, I need to take these expensive vacations to recover, I have to have coverage for my kids, because I'm not able to show up for them in the way that I want. I have to, I spent a lot of frivolous money because I'm trying to numb out. Right. And when you start to add all that up, it is deeply expensive to not be aligned with what you actually want. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 16:28

  yeah. I know that the compounding interest on wellbeing is probably something that we can't calculate. Wow. Yeah. So you know, what are some ways that you feel folks can, you know, use the wisdom and the power that they inherently have to go from maybe where they're at right now to building something that looks more sustainable for them.

  Rebecca Arnold 16:55

  So one piece, which dovetails on what we were just talking about is, I call this notion dancing with mortality. We have this idea that mortality is so far off, and for most of us, and it is just a lie, we tell ourselves to get through the day, which of course we have to right, if we were every moment thinking about our mortality, we wouldn't be able to function, right? And we we sort of cast mortality, we kind of cover our eyes and look away. And what I often invite people into is to have the sense of dancing with mortality, which looks like bringing it a little more into your conscious awareness. Like maybe once a week, hey, I'm X number of years old, how many more years do I actually have left? And how do I want those to look? And there's a zooming out quality that happens at a reprioritizing that happens as soon as we start to have that kind of a conversation.

  Erica D'Eramo 17:53

  Yeah, I mean, there's a, I don't want to call it a trope. But this it's kind of well known now that you know, the astronauts that get to see the earth, from afar have this complete existential shift about, you know, where we are and what a miracle it is that we even exist. And for me that dancing with mortality, anyone who's listened to the podcast for a while has heard me tell the story about like, snapping into a helicopter see, and sort of having it front of mine that there had been a bunch of helicopter crashes in the industry and beyond what if this helicopter goes down? Did I do what I wanted to do in life? Well, I have regrets on the way down, like, certainly sadness and fear, but like regrets about how I spent my time. And the answer was yes, that day, and it was a real, like, wake up call for me. And anyone who's dealing with illness, or anytime we hear these things in the media about, or in our communities, even about, you know, like, mass shootings or just real tragedies, it's a, it's a reminder, like tomorrow is not, tomorrow is not a given. Absolutely.

  Rebecca Arnold 19:04

  And it puts that email you've been fighting over into the perspective it needs to be in. And it's so easy to kind of slingshot back into our day to day. So the invitation is just to periodically bring it into your awareness. Another piece that I another kind of practice that I think about in terms of activating the wisdom that you hold inside is we have most of my clients and I'm sure this is your experience, too, that kind of operate from the neck up. And we're so used to relying on our brain in Western culture. Of course, our brains are delightful. And there is

  Erica D'Eramo 19:42

  I don't know Speak for yourself

  Rebecca Arnold 19:48

  or frustrated with mine too. And there is so much wisdom, intuition, understanding from the neck down that we often to now And so, most, most of us are kind of under practiced in paying attention to the signals that our body is giving us. And it is one of the quickest ways to access our intuition and help us make reprioritize and make some of the critical decisions in our lives. And so I often work with folks to kind of re kind of forge a new relationship with the wisdom of their bodies. And that can look like when you have an ache talk, I know that sounds a little wacky, but talking to your ache, what are you trying to tell me? What do you need me to know? And as you start asking, those kinds of questions, your body will start to answer. So there's, this is a whole realm. I mean, your somatic practice is a whole realm that has so much richness, and is not talked enough about I think, in leadership kind of spaces and circles and within organizations.

  Erica D'Eramo 20:56

  Yeah, there's a an author named Lisa Feldman Barrett, she wrote, yeah, how emotions are made. And so as you're talking through this, it's just reminding me that, like, our brain is interpreting a lot of things. And it's really just reading what's happening in our body that's, that is happening in order to keep us alive. Yep. And then we add context, we add meaning we add history. And then we come up with a word and we say, Oh, I'm scared, or I'm this, or I'm that. But really, it's the things are happening in our bodies. And then we can be more reflective and intentional about that and more observant.

  Rebecca Arnold 21:38

  Yeah, it's so interesting to me, I don't know if that you've had this experience, but lots of books talk about the need for emotional intelligence, and social intelligence and all of that. And oftentimes, that work can be intellectual in a way that is great, and is missing the complementary piece of, if it's hard for you to identify the imprints of different emotions in your body, it's very hard for you to be compassionate and empathetic with other folks and understand your own emotional interior life. And so of course, there can be a gap in collaboration and communication and teamwork and all those things that our leaders and organizations value so much.

  Erica D'Eramo 22:21

  Yeah, yeah. That the word interoception a lot of like, throw that out there. A lot of people are not familiar with that word, but it means right, being able to know what is happening in your body. And if that's not, there's a reason it's called a practice, right? This is not something that you just decide tomorrow, I'm going to be aware of what's happening in my body. So that's why working with a coach, like yourself can be so valuable, because it's bringing back to that like coming back using the practices being building that awareness over time. And it's a muscle that we build in a way, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So how do you feel folks can start to own their own capabilities, you know, even when they're in a work environment, that's maybe not sending them the most positive messages or can be filled with, you know, a lot of either toxicity or just criticality. And so, what's some advice you have?

  Rebecca Arnold 23:17

  Yeah, so I love this question. Thank you. There are so many small practices that can make a huge impact. And one that I love is simply at the end of the day, writing down three wins you had that day, it can be I smiled at a jerk today. From that to Iraq to that presentation, right, it can be as micro as you want to make it or as macro as you want to make it. But one of the opportunities of a practice like that is that if you know what's coming at the end of the day, you'll start to look for your wins throughout the day. And it's a very simple way of counteracting a toxic culture, not that this is going to fix everything. Of course, the toxic culture is systemic, and it's not an individual's responsibility to metabolize that. And while you are working in that system and trying to either negotiate, change or negotiate your out, there are practices you can do to start feeling incrementally better. And this is one of them. So it will start to counteract your our all humans have a natural negativity bias, it will start to counteract that and we'll start you'll start to notice the cumulative winds you have throughout the day and throughout the week. And I love watching and my clients when they start to do this initially, some of my clients are resistant. I don't know if you have this experience, but people are so used to beating themselves up they worry if they stop, they're going to fall apart.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:49

  Yeah, I Yes. I think that that is such a fascinating thing to explore as well because it's almost like you know, the Marie Kondo like Okay, take that parasites think it for what it's done for you and send it on its way. And I feel like that sometimes with our hyper criticality, these voices that we've developed over time, it's probably kept us safe. They probably helped us Excel especially over, you know, high performers, overachiever, overachievers. And so like acknowledging the role it played, because we don't want to demonize it mean, recognizing that it's no longer only option, and it's probably not really serving us that effectively going forward. So exploring what that might look like. But I, I really appreciate this framing versus I know that there's a lot around gratitude. And I, I know, there's a lot of research around the effectiveness of gratitude practice. But I love this idea of like capturing your wins, that you are proud of, because it's a reminder, that builds confidence in your own capabilities. Because confident we know right? Like confidence doesn't come from just telling yourself, you're confident I hate this narrative for women, like just believe in yourself. No, look at the evidence, there's evidence there that you are amazing. Go look.

  Rebecca Arnold 26:12

  And the what I would add, so this applies actually to gratitude practices, and also to practice like writing down your wins. If you write down your wins, and then allow yourself a few moments to experience the the sensations of pride in your body of having accomplished those wins, it will stay with you longer and have a bigger impact. Rick Hansen, I'm sure you've read Rick Hansen's work like neuro Dharma and the pursuit of happiness, I think it's called looking on my bookshelf. He talks about this practice of with gratitude, if you hold on to it longer, a little longer, and let it soak into your body. It has such a richer impact than just writing down a list of gratitudes. And then moving on to your email. Right, which totally makes sense, right? We hang on to it in a positive way. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 27:05

  I could see folks listening in and especially those like hardened corporate folks. This all sounds woowoo to me, blah, blah, blah, no, like, man, it's in this really isn't the science. And fundamentally, it comes down to surviving into the life you want to be living because so much of detaching from what's happening in our bodies and detaching from that flight fight or flight response means that are we stay in that right? We are constantly in a just soaked with cortisol, and we're more at risk for chronic illnesses or more at risk for toxic behaviors towards the people around us, whether that's family, employees, colleagues. So there are very practical and sound reasons that taking this like internal view, embracing some of these mindsets. They have like, very immediate impacts on our lives and in our performance. And yeah, yep. Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 28:12

  I had a client who when we talked about this wins practice, they said, I don't need a parade to do my job, which I totally heard. I was like, I totally hear that. And will you? Are you willing to experiment for a week and see how it goes? Right? Just a week, there's no, there's very little cost. And we have this fascinating conversation after of the reluctant admission that it was supportive. And so it's there is very little cost to trying some of these practices and very big upside. So I have worked with folks kind of across the gamut from, you know, big law firms, to superintendents to faculty at, like higher ed institutions. And many of my clients are initially reluctant, and then they see the impact. So I hear you, I hear you corporate folk who are feeling a little resistant to this. And what's the cost, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 29:13

  Yeah, I mean, there's so much power and curiosity of taking that experimenters mindset of setting. Sure your hypothesis might be that this is a bunch of BS, but you know, let's see what happens. And if it's effective, it's effective. Yeah, yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 29:29

  One piece of science that I like to give folks who are feeling reluctant is when you walk into it takes one grumpy person to ruin a meeting. Right? We know that our moods are contagious, more so than viruses even you don't need six feet with a mood, right, that can translate across a huge ballroom.

  Erica D'Eramo 29:49

  Just nothing. Yeah, totally, totally. And so

  Rebecca Arnold 29:54

  think about what's just what's happening in some of those interactions that throughout your day with your boss. or in a meeting with your senior leadership team or your customers. And if you were coming from a place with just 2% more calm, for example, what would be the impact of them?

  Erica D'Eramo 30:13

  You know, I just had a chance to catch up with them, like a long term mentor of mine, and we were talking about, you know, just navigating traffic and stuff. And she was saying that, you know, well, this is driving on the highways of Houston, so I will give it some context. But she was saying, you know, like, I just was trying to merge on the highway, and they wouldn't let me on the highway, you know, or like, they wouldn't let me off and, and then I finally had to cut in because I needed to get off the exit. And then they got all like Rayji, and like, blaring on the horn and, and all this stuff. And then that puts me in a crappy mood. And I just want to like, cut the next person off. And this just extrapolates and goes on and on. And but she had that awareness to be like, oh, oh, I'm, I'm like replicating this now. Yeah, and internalizing it, I gotta let that go. But how many people don't have that awareness to stop and say, Oh, wait, I don't need to replicate this. I don't need to internalize it. I'm going to complete the stress cycle, I'm going to scream in my car, play some music, or do whatever it takes. But I don't need to pass this on to other people. A lot of people don't have that awareness. Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 31:20

  Yeah, what I really appreciate about your example is, it's sort of an it's an example of the micro stressors that build up throughout the day. So a lot of us think about the stress of a big presentation, or a huge board meeting, but not those tiny moments of the email that makes your stomach acid royal or being cut off in traffic. And there's a researcher named Richard Boyatzis, who studies this and he says, we have 12 of these a day or something like that. And if we're not allowing ourselves the recovery time, these are just accumulating throughout their day. So no wonder you walk in the door. Grumpy Pants, right? Who What did so yeah, so there are just so many opportunities throughout the day to build in just moments of restoration to counteract the stress, we're all swimming and all the time,

  Erica D'Eramo 32:09

  which is different to then I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna like how many times a lot of us have built that in, especially people dealing with microaggressions you know, like having to pick your fights and deal with that day in and day out. And you stay, I'm just gonna let it go. But like, it's not it. There's a difference between actually being able to allow things to roll off of you versus just forcing yourself to censor a reaction and yeah, underlying it up, and then it comes out later.

  Rebecca Arnold 32:40

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, pseudo pseudo processing. One of the one practice I love and this is probably, Lisa Feldman, Barrett. Barrett did emotional granularity, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 32:57

  Yeah, I think she did do quite a bit on national granularity. So

  Rebecca Arnold 33:01

  even just the practice of saying to yourself, I am frustrated. Yep. And just naming it clearly allowing yourself to experience that and if you need to move on, you move on. But there's a reaction that happens systemically for us of you can feel your shoulders relaxed when you validate your own feeling that you're experiencing.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:26

  Yeah, we I just hosted a workshop earlier in the week and one of my like, giveaways or whatever was the feelings we'll I joked that we need to, like all print this out in in large poster format and put it on our wall so that we can walk over and be like, Okay, it's not just I'm mad, right? It's like, Okay, let's go a little more granular what is that? Because yeah, granularity and the ability to verbalize it is highly tied in the research to resilient outcomes. So, yeah, and we don't develop a lot of that vocabulary awareness in our day to day lives or society, especially not for men. Like, I'm just gonna say it right. We really don't expect that or require that a lot of, you know, the male tropes in our society. It's good for you. Because I,

  Rebecca Arnold 34:21

  we have I mean, you joke, but we have an emotion wheel on the bulletin board in my kitchen that has prime real estate. You can tell I'm a coach. My kids roll their eyes, and sometimes they walk over to it and are sort of looked quizzically trying to identify which is the exact thing they're feeling. And that's what I want them to do. That's what I want for all of us.

  Erica D'Eramo 34:42

  Yeah. Is it frustration? Is it resentment? Is it like enjoy all the Oh, yeah. All the things? Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 34:49

  I mean, it's both what I love about the for your folks who are feeling resistant. What I also appreciate about this naming specifically, what you're feeling is not just that it comes Our system but also, it points us toward a clearer answer. Right? If you're angry versus jealous, there's a different solution that is baked into that emotional experience. But if you're just calling everything angry, you're missing the subtlety that points to what you should do next.

  Erica D'Eramo 35:16

  Yeah, yeah. There's so often when when you really get to the underlying description of it, the granularity of it, there's so often an aha moment, right? Because angry versus resentment. Okay, what is it that we're feeling? Or is it do we really want to buy into that? Is that really within our value system, or angry because I've been wronged, and I'm hurt, my feelings are hurt. That's like a totally different pathway to resolving that or integrating that. So? Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 35:47

  So for your listeners who manage teams, if you start to paying a pay attention, in your one on ones are in your meetings to how people are verbalizing their experiences, you will start to notice what are some common emotional themes? And where you're missing opportunities to dig a little deeper into where are some solutions to what's going on for folks?

  Erica D'Eramo 36:11

  Yeah, yeah, I love that. So what's one way that you would, you know, help folks to cut through all the noise, right, and to just like, prioritize, you know, what they? What's the impact they want to have on the world?

  Rebecca Arnold 36:27

  So I love the question. If you knew you were gonna die in two years, what remains undone? And there's when I ask clients that question, there's, it's almost like, we immediately entered another plane of conversation, and thought, of course, right. So that's one very quick way to access it. Another approach, and I'm sure you do this with your clients, too, is visualization, and how quickly we can tap into our deeper levels of knowing and values when we kind of slow ourselves down and imagine the future that we want to create. And there's a there's a quality of conversation and insight that happens through visualizations, that is completely different from thought based questions like, what's your five year plan? Right? That's a totally different conversation, than having the experience of a visualization of imagining five years in the future. Who are you with? What's lighting your heart on fire? What's filling you all the way up? Who are the what are the relationships that you delight in? Right? There's all this that's accessible through visualization. So those are just a couple of ways. There are lots of others. But I think it really takes some awareness that we are, it's almost like our day to day life is static. And you know, when they're static in the background, you don't notice it until it's done, and your whole body exhales. That's what we're in all the time, right? When we think about all the inputs that we experience throughout the day. And it's so important to carve out these quieter moments of reflection, whether that is journaling, where you just let yourself riff, whether that is doing visualizations, or a grounding practice, there are so many ways to cut through the noise and reconnect with yourself and what matters most.

  Erica D'Eramo 38:27

  Yeah, I think it's, it's also, when we talk about some of these practices like visualization, I'm sure that there's like a YouTube we could watch or something. But working with somebody who understands and can and can guide some of this can be really helpful because I know I sat down in in a session one time and it I was in a period of flux. I had a lot of anxiety at the moment. And it was just like an open ended visualization about like, Okay, now project yourself forward one year, what's happening, and I was not in the heads, you know, like I needed more structure. I was not in the headspace for that, because it ended up just like amplifying all the anxiety. Like I'm living under a bridge I have, you know, everybody's around me has died, like all these awful things. But when you have somebody who a you've worked with for a while they understand what's important, and they can help guide that process so that you're you are envisioning what it is that success looks like what does it feel like? It can help you really get clear on like, what it is that you're actually trying to strive for, versus just, you know, some title or some job or some house? Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 39:34

  yeah. I mean, even each of those things, is the experience you want to have in those right. It's not the house. It's not the title. It's right. What are you what are those a signal for and that's what we both do in our coaching is to look beneath kind of what are those top layer things that folks are pointing to to excavate what's underneath that that they're really craving and wanting? Right?

  Erica D'Eramo 39:59

  Those are the those are the means to the ends. So once the ends, because there's probably other means that might be more effective to get you there. So, no, sorry, go ahead.

  Rebecca Arnold 40:12

  No, I was just gonna say I one thing that I one practice I really love is looking for where we are bringing in the How to soon. And I call it the how monster and my daughter made this awesome visual that I will I will send you a little clip at some point. But we think that how is this innocent little question that just crops up to help us plan. But what happens is before we can even articulate what we get into the how. So let's say we want a title of some kind. And then we start to riff on how but how can I have this conversation with my boss? What is that going to look like? When is that going to happen? Bob about and we just get more and more stressed before we even allow ourselves to articulate? What is the title and why and what can that look like and what is possible and what is available in that position. And then we crush any hope of articulating what we want. Because of this, how sort of picking apart energy that can happen. So I often invite people to set how aside, especially for folks who have an atrophied wanting muscle and just allow yourself to articulate the thing that you want.

  Erica D'Eramo 41:27

  Yeah. Yep. And chances are it's some state of being right. It's not. And the other things are the way that you think you'll get to that state of Yeah, but yeah, yeah. So I want to make sure our listeners can connect with you and learn more and find your book. So where can they find you? What's what are the ways that you have folks connect with you.

  Rebecca Arnold 41:53

  So you can find me at route with two O's, coaching consulting.com. And at route coach on Instagram, and then my book, The routed renegade will be available on any platform, you're sort of looking for June 10, and beyond. So I am thrilled to launch this into the world. And there are so many practices built into that. But there are over 50 practices in that book. And it's sort of my offering love letter to the world opportunity to have folks have a guide book to support you as you go through your journey, that the biggest compliment to me would be a having my books binding cracked dog ear. So my hope is that any of you who pick it up, we'll turn to it again. And again, when you're wrestling with different things, trying to articulate what you want looking for different practices, there's so much in there. And I would love to hear from any of your audience that it resonates with and, and all of that. So thank you for for pointing your audience there.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:59

  Yeah, absolutely. And we'll link to link to your accounts and how folks can connect with you. And we'll be sure to include it in our monthly book list as well. So, so yeah, for anyone looking to find those links, you can find them in the show notes. You can find them on our website, or this podcast episode. And that's at twopiersconsulting.com. And again, thank you so much, Rebecca, for coming on and sharing all your insights and in frameworks really, really appreciate it.

  Rebecca Arnold 43:29

  Of course it was it has been a delight.

  Erica D'Eramo 43:32

  And we look forward to seeing everyone next episode.

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Rebecca Arnold is a professional, certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching & Consulting, LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She’s also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo & Unleash Your Legacy (Greenleaf Book Group, June 10, 2024). The book is part call to action, part roadmap, and part step-by-step guide to creating a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. 

Her clients are mission-driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social-impact organizations. An attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. 

But more importantly, she’s known as a “straight-talkin’, big-hearted” coach. In addition, Rebecca is a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. 

She was a Presidential Management Fellow at the US Department of Education and a special assistant to the Assistant Secretary for Career, Technical, and Adult Education. In those positions, she focused on reform initiatives for high schools and community colleges. She has worked with numerous social-impact organizations in the education and social justice arenas. She holds a JD from Northeastern University and a BA from Brown University.

The Rooted Renegade

Introduction

In this enlightening podcast episode, we delve into the realm of personal growth and leadership development with Rebecca Arnold, a seasoned professional certified coach and author. Through her captivating origin story and insightful discussions, Rebecca sheds light on the transformative power of reconnecting with our inner selves to create systemic change in both our professional and personal lives.

Rebecca Arnold's Journey

Rebecca Arnold kickstarts the conversation by narrating her journey from being a burned-out professional in the policy realm to finding her true calling as a coach. Drawing from her psychology roots, she shares how embracing her passion for coaching has not only revitalized her own career but also empowered her to guide others towards fulfillment and success.

Discovering Rooted Peace

Central to Rebecca's philosophy is the concept of rooted peace—a three-part framework for nurturing well-being in mind, body, and heart. Through her work, she advocates for a holistic approach to success, one that transcends mere external achievements and aligns with our inner values and desires.

Prioritizing Well-being and Intuition

Rebecca delves into the complexities of prioritizing well-being and intuition over external validation, challenging societal norms that glorify titles and monetary gains. Alongside Erica D'Eramo, she explores the profound impact of acknowledging mortality and realigning our life goals to foster genuine fulfillment and purpose.

Cultivating Emotional Intelligence in Toxic Environments

Navigating toxic work environments can take a toll on our emotional well-being. Rebecca emphasizes the importance of practices like mindfulness and gratitude in counteracting negativity and enhancing resilience. By fostering self-awareness and empathy, individuals can cultivate emotional intelligence even in the most challenging of circumstances.

Harnessing Emotional Awareness for Stress Management

Rebecca and Erica delve into the significance of emotional granularity—a nuanced understanding of our emotions—and its role in stress management. By honing our ability to identify and process emotions, we can unlock deeper insights and pave the way for meaningful growth and self-discovery.

Clarifying Personal Goals and Desires

In the pursuit of success, Rebecca encourages listeners to redefine their notions of achievement and articulate their true desires. Rather than fixating on external markers of success, she invites individuals to explore their passions and values, offering practical tools for personal growth and fulfillment.

Conclusion

As the conversation draws to a close, Rebecca Arnold leaves listeners inspired to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery and transformation. With her forthcoming book, "The Rooted Renegade," she promises to equip readers with fifty actionable practices for unlocking their full potential and embracing a life of rooted peace and purpose.

Through Rebecca Arnold's illuminating insights and heartfelt anecdotes, this podcast episode serves as a beacon of hope for anyone seeking to chart a path towards personal growth, resilience, and authentic leadership.

Finding Support in Industry Organizations - with Attorney Liz Nielsen

• full transcript of episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host Erica D'Eramo. And today we have attorney Liz Nielsen joining us. So Liz has guided hundreds of families through the estate planning process served as their trusted advisor to bring peace of mind to their lives, and she is the founder of Nielsen Law, a small estate planning firm in Austin, Texas. Liz is board certified in estate planning and probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. She practices exclusively in the areas of state planning, special needs planning and estate administration. Liz also happens to be the president of The Travis County Women's Lawyers Association. Giving back to the Austin community is very important to Liz and TCWA as nonprofit organization is committed to supporting issues affecting women both as lawyers and as members of society. Liz is also board vice chair, President Elect of Age of Central Texas, a nonprofit organization that helps older adults and their caregivers thrive as they navigate the realities and opportunities of aging and caregiving. And on today's episode, we'll be talking about all things professional organizations, how they can help how they can support in a little bit as well about what we should be thinking about in terms of estate planning, and particularly for folks who maybe didn't think that they needed to consider things like estate planning. So we're really happy to have Liz on this episode to cover some of the topics that we could learn a bit more about.

  Liz, thank you so much for joining the episode. We're so happy to have you.

  Liz Nielsen 1:45

  Thanks, Erica. I'm really excited to be here.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:49

  So this is kind of my classic question that I asked everyone. But what would you say your like origin story is like, tell us about about yourself and how you got ended up getting into this work?

  Liz Nielsen 2:01

  Sure. So gosh, I don't think anybody grows up and says, Gosh, I really want to be an estate planning and probate lawyer when I grew up. You know, I certainly didn't, I had lots of things that I wanted to be. But I don't even think being a lawyer was one of the things that I thought about when I was growing up. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, when I went to college, I really wanted to study like environmental science, and wanted to be like a forest ranger when I grew up. But of course, I went to college in New York City, the exact opposite of where someone would go if you wanted to be a forest ranger. And I went to Barnard College, which was an all women college that's associated with Columbia University. And while I was there, I actually got really into human rights. And so I worked at an NGO at the United Nations with an internship there. And this was back in the early 2000s. And so I was really able to participate in things at the UN such as hearings about the genocide in Darfur, which was really sad, but also observed discussions with the Commission on the Status of Women and talking about the Millennium Development Goals. And so I got really into sort of human rights. And as I was looking at it, I also realized, gosh, we've got a lot of things here in the United States that we could work on. And so I decided to go to law school, mostly because I graduated with degrees in psychology and religion, with a concentration in human rights. And really, the only thing you can do with that is go to graduate school. So I decided to go to law school thinking I would study like constitutional law and civil rights law. And so I went to the University of Texas School of Law. And one of my first classes there, I think, like most first year law students was constitutional law. And I was surprised to learn that that turned out to not be my favorite class. I really like contracts. And I like tax law, way more than my civil rights and constitutional law classes. So that was very surprising to me my first year. So then I took a class on wills and estates my second year, and at the same time, I was taking that class, my grandmother had been diagnosed with dementia. And so I was kind of learning the legal side, which is very much just reading cases not looking at a single Will or Trust, but then also helping my family navigate my grandmother's dementia and their legal documents. And it was really interesting seeing firsthand just how much of a difference the planning can make on a family. And my grandparents had set up the super complicated a state plan. And my grandfather in the last years of his life, he was really, I guess, stressed about the plan. He didn't have Understand it. And he didn't understand sort of how the components work together. And it seemed like his attorney just hadn't ever described it to him in a way that he could understand. And my grandfather, he was super smart. He was a PhD physicist, but still like, couldn't understand it. So one of my favorite things about doing estate planning and probate is that I'm actually, you know, really helping people. And kind of an unusual way, because I don't think people think about, oh, gosh, planning for what's going to happen when I'm incapacitated, or when I pass away, you don't think about that. It's like, really helping, but it is like, it's really like, one of the few areas of law where I'm working with people who aren't fighting with each other. I'm working with people who are just planning for the future. And I just really, I really love it. But at the same time, I also try to stay very involved in the community. So that's one of the reasons why I ended up joining the Travis County Women Lawyers Association when I was a young baby lawyer, and have continued to be involved for for so many years. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 6:02

  I think that one of the things that drew me to reach out to you about being on the podcast was I just watching some of the materials that you share has really helped me understand that, like estate planning, we think of as something that rich people do, or something that only the super privileged and wealthy do. And I've been learning so much more about how actually, for many people this is this is something that a doesn't get talked about, especially in families that, you know, maybe didn't have this, as part of growing up, this was never something that was discussed. But then it can affect really anyone, regardless of you know, their their current view on assets or, or wealth. So I think that this is a message that I did want to get out there in terms of, you know, underserved communities, historically marginalized communities that maybe don't even or even just like first generation, folks who are now you know, going to university in establishing wealth themselves that they didn't grow up with a vocabulary around this. And they would never think, oh, I should maybe talk to someone about estate planning, because the language, even in and of itself, is state, it sounds like in my brain, I think mansion, right? Oh, I don't have a mansion. I don't need to worry about that. But tell us a little bit more about that. Like, what do you encounter in terms of familiarity with this concept?

  Liz Nielsen 7:34

  Yeah, I mean, I think probably a lot of people were like me, or I had really put no thought into estate planning at all until I was in law school. And I think that's true, I think, you know, there's a lot of disparity in our country. And between who's kind of talking about this and who's not. And I think some of it is age, I think when you're younger people think, Gosh, I don't need an estate plan, I don't need to worry about those things. And, you know, it's not it's not true. I mean, I think especially if you're younger, if you have really any assets, like if you have a bank account, or you have a car, like you have something to think about, and you might not need a big fancy estate plan, but there's certainly planning that you need to do. And I think as people get older, maybe they see their family members pass away, or they see, you know, their friends pass away, and they realize, gosh, it really can end up being a huge mess. If things are not planned for correctly. I actually had a client, email me today, sort of a little Client Testimonial, and she started out with saying, I don't think there's a beneficiary or an executor out there who says that they wish so and so didn't have an updated the state plan. I think that it's just one of those things that really, you know, everybody needs, and it's not so much related to the size of the estate.

  Erica D'Eramo 9:00

  Yeah. I also think that we can't necessarily predict when we will end up being involved in one of these conversations or, you know, named as a person who is suddenly taken care of, of these types of things. Absolutely.

  Liz Nielsen 9:15

  And I think, you know, a lot of times people think of estate planning too, as just being you know, your will just what happens when you pass away. But a really big part of estate planning is planning for incapacity. So like, you know, who will help with your finances if you can't, who will make medical decisions if you're in a coma? Do you want to be kept on life support forever. A lot of people are surprised the Terri Schiavo case, which I remember from when I was young, but she was, you know, in a persistent vegetative state and the doctors knew she wasn't going to recover and there was a big fight between her parents and her husband about what she would want. And a lot of times we were really surprised she was only like, 30 years old, like she was really young. And so I think, realizing that gosh, you need to do this planning. You know, and make some of these hard decisions, I think starting when you're when you're pretty young. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 10:05

  yeah, I remember that case. And then I also remember the, you're wrong about episode, the podcast episode explaining it. And I think a lot of people, the media latched on to that case, and people didn't really understand all the details behind it. But yeah, that's Okay. A lot of us can can remember. So tell us a little bit more about T CW LA, and what brought you to either get involved there or seek them out and a little bit about how that role has evolved for you?

  Liz Nielsen 10:39

  Sure. So, you know, T CWA has been, you know, around for a long time, just like a lot of I think women professional organizations, it was started in the 70s. You know, with just a few women, there weren't a lot of women lawyers who are practicing back then. But, you know, of the starting members, the founding members of the organization, a lot of them ended up becoming judges and really having a big impact on Texas legal history. And I don't know if everybody knows this to Travis County is in Austin, Texas, which is the capital of Texas. And so they really have been able to have a pretty big effect on some of the laws and just sort of have the culture of how women are integrated into the the legal community in in Texas. And, you know, it started out with they had to do a lot of, you know, really boots on the ground advocacy in Austin. And this is I think, true. Maybe in a lot of cities, we have a lot of kind of, like professional social clubs. We have the UT club and headliners club and all these clubs, and they are really a place where people will go and have lunch and do networking. And, you know, for a long time, women were not even allowed to go into these clubs and TCL LA was really involved with sort of allowing women just to be physically in the room.

  Erica D'Eramo 12:06

  Not even that long ago, right? I mean, we're no, no,

  Liz Nielsen 12:09

  this is like in the 80s. Like, really? Not that long ago. Right. And so, you know, I think back then, like, there was just very clear discrimination, right? It was just, you saw it, you know, in the courtroom, in the law firms in the government, like there was just very clear discrimination. And organizations like the Travis County Women Lawyers Association, were really able to advocate for women. And I think now, you know, things have changed. Right? I think that the discrimination is not as obvious. I guess, it's more like micro aggressions against women. For instance, I think one of the things that I hear a lot, and it's that, you know, if you walk into the clerk's office, and you're a woman, they might be more likely to assume that you're a paralegal than that you're a lawyer. I mean, those things I get still true in a way that, you know, it's small things like I get called Honey and Sweetie by older lawyers, all the time. Goodness, which is I think, you know, it's strange. And I think, I think by having groups like, you know, the Travis County, Women Lawyers Association, and these women, professional organizations, you can talk to other women and realize, oh, my gosh, it's not just me, I'm not crazy, like these things are still happening, and then talk about, Okay, how do you address them? How do you stand up for yourself? In which situations? Do you stand up for yourself? And which situations, do you not? And I think, you know, kind of navigating that, you know, constant maze of what, when do you stand up for yourself? And when do you not is something that by talking to other women, it really helps, I think, yeah, it helps to address those situations correctly. And, you know, I'm a white woman, I think, if you're a woman of color, it's even harder. And I think these groups like tcma are even more important to have that community where you can have a safe place to talk about it.

  Erica D'Eramo 14:09

  And I think to the it's even beyond the like, when do we speak up and when do we not and I love that this is not a given that we all just need to clean our place and speak our minds because we know that many of us particularly women of color will suffer more consequences for that than than people who are in the quote in group but also the most effective ways to do that, as well and like learning from what other people have tried and what has worked and what has been effective for them and what has not been effective for them so that we can hopefully pass some of those learnings around.

  Liz Nielsen 14:46

  Yeah. You know, what causes someone to decide to join a group like TC why so I joined it, you know, when I was when I was a younger, much younger lawyer. And you know for lots Two reasons. One, I had a friend who was really involved, and she invited me. And I think that really makes a big difference when you have, you know, somebody that you know, already there and you're not like just standing in the corner of the room. I'm an introvert. So going to, you know, networking events and things like that. It's not my favorite thing. And so that's one of the I found really great about TC FBLA is that, you know, people, if they see someone just standing there, people will come up and talk to them and ask him, How long have you been involved? What kind of law do you practice, like, we have a lot in common. So we're able to kind of quickly get to know people and have them feel like they're there in the right place. And they're with people that, you know, they can be, you know, authentic and real with. And I stayed involved, I think, you know, for lots of reasons. But, you know, part of it was just there was a lot of different types of activities, that T sail, who was doing, it wasn't just, you know, these networking mixers, but it was also legal education, they have a book club, they have a mentoring program, like a really formal mentoring program that I think is just really an amazing resource that not a lot of people. Not a lot of women have that opportunity to have a very formal mentoring relationship with a woman who has, you know, been there before. And I think that's just an incredibly helpful program on both sides. I think as a mentor, you learn a lot to get as much out of it as the mentee does. And so yeah, and I've just stayed involved. And I've just been, I don't know, I just feels like a place where I fit in where I'm able to grow, where I'm able to talk about things that are hard, but also just talk about, you know, our kids, or, you know, how we figure out how to make lunch every day, whatever it is, it's human parts that yeah, the human parts. Exactly.

  Erica D'Eramo 16:56

  So one of the things that I love that you've mentioned, is that you're an introvert. And that's important to me as a fellow introvert, because I think that sometimes it can be quite daunting to sign up to go to these events, especially when they're characterized as mixers, or meet and greets. Like, for me, that can be pretty challenging, even though I'm not shy, but they can be quite draining or just daunting. So tell me a little bit more about like, what advice would you have for other introverts who maybe feel like they could use some community, but the idea of going to a mixer or even reaching out to an organization is just a little like one step too far?

  Liz Nielsen 17:42

  Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that has really worked for me is just finding other people to either go with me or who are already part of the group. So that's really good. Actually, I went to a new estate planning group a couple of weeks ago. And I realized that a financial advisor that I knew she was also going for the first time, so we arranged to, you know, get there at the same time and sit by each other. And that made it just a lot easier for me. But I think also like going to groups that you think are going where there are going to be people who are like minded is helpful. So for me going to an event with a group of estate planning attorneys is usually a whole lot easier than if I'm gonna go to like the family law meet and greet, which are divorce attorneys, which I don't do it can be, might be good for me professionally, but not not as comfortable of a space for me. Yeah, and then one of the things that I do, and this is why I get involved in so many organizations is actually like, getting involved help. So if I am in charge of signing people in, right, if I have some kind of a job at the event, I find it a lot easier for me. Yeah, so yeah, I often try to sign sign up to be like the person that greets people when they come in, or I help arrange the food or whatever it is, but it helps if I have I have a job. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 19:07

  that that's really interesting, actually, what an insight and it explains to me why I am an introvert who loves hosting dinner parties, because I'm always like, in the kitchen, chopping veggies or whatever, but I'm in the vicinity of the action. So listen, and kind of pop in as I want. But I don't have to be talking the whole time. Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 19:27

  yeah. Yeah, for sure. I feel the same way. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 19:31

  yeah. So what, in terms of you know, you mentioned Texas, I think for any of our listeners that aren't in Texas, or aren't familiar with Texas, there's a lot of misconceptions. Like I hear folks who are surprised when I mentioned that, you know, Houston is one of the most diverse cities in the country, if not the most diversity in the country. So what is the diversity look like amongst the women's law associations that you're a part of Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 20:00

  I mean, I think diversity is an issue in the law, I think there's a lot of things that make it more difficult from the very beginning, even in law school for people of color to be successful and to want to graduate and then to want to practice law. I think it's really, it's difficult. And I don't know if it's getting better or not. I know that just amongst the lawyers, I know, there's very, very little diversity. If I want to refer a client to a estate planning attorney who speaks Spanish, like I know, too, and there's, you know, hundreds of estate planning attorneys in Austin. And so I think that, that diversity is it's lacking. And I think, you know, groups like TC who probably can help with that by providing that mentorship that will hopefully help people stay in the profession. So I think a big problem is that people will graduate from law school, even women, right that women are way more than half of all law school graduates right now. But they're much more likely to stop practicing, or to never even enter the field at all after graduating law school. And I think that's, it's a huge problem. And I don't I don't know all of the solutions. But I think mentorship I think, talking about it, I'm sure, you know, having di committees at law firms, helps to a certain extent. But I think it has to start early. I think probably even in law school addressing the issues. Yeah. And I don't know about how it is in Houston. But in Austin, Austin is a very segregated city. Maybe the one of the most segregated cities, I think in the country. Yeah. And I think that really affects the opportunities as well.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:50

  Yeah, I, I don't know, in terms of the different cities in Texas, what that looks like. I think that has been my own perception as well. Austin seems to have like the extremes and a big gap in between, like that disparity seems.

  Liz Nielsen 22:09

  Yeah, I think it's surprising considering Austin's so one of the most liberal cities in Texas.

  Erica D'Eramo 22:16

  Yeah, yeah. So what would your advice be for folks that are looking to join a professional network? Like, what should they be considering when they're trying to find that community?

  Liz Nielsen 22:29

  Yeah, so we've talked about this a little bit already. But I think finding, finding groups that seem relevant to what you do and what it is you're looking maybe to learn more about, or what your kind of what your interests are. And then I'd also look at, like, kind of what are the types of activities, I think some groups are more, you know, more networking, like, really, that's the focus or, you know, building a client base, I think others are more focused on education, whether, you know, in the legal area, there's a lot of continuing legal education that different professional organizations provide. And for some people, that's very important, and for others, it's not as important. But then I think third is just, you know, is the group welcoming, I think that says a lot about the group. If they are welcoming, they people come up and talk to you. And when you go to an event. I think that that's really important. I think that's something to keep in mind, if you're a part of a professional organization, right is to go and welcome new members, or if there's a face, you don't recognize, go up and say hi to somebody, introduce them to others in the group that you think you know, it'd be good for them to talk to you, I'm always trying to connect people to, you know, be like, oh, you know, focus on international law, so and so Oh, so does that or whatever, I think is really helpful. And then, you know, asking people to come back, like being really intentional about it. I think that really makes it a lot more likely that someone's gonna going to come back if they know that they're invited back. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 24:12

  that all that all makes a lot of sense. There is this consistent kind of theme that I've been coming across lately, and I've written about it, actually, extensively, I'll probably do a podcast episode on it. But this idea that women don't support other women, or that we're all like in competition with each other. And so I sometimes wonder if the idea of like a women's professional group, how, like, how do you counter that narrative in a women's professional group? Or do you come across anyone being concerned about seeing women as competition, especially in a field where you mentioned that, you know, pull through and is a challenge and there's a lot of attrition. And so, you know, the fewer people you have of that group, the more likely that they sort of get pitted against each other for the one spa or the, you know, seen as a sort of a monolith, at least at least that's what we're seeing. Yeah,

  Liz Nielsen 25:16

  I mean, I think, yeah, I think that groups like T CWA really can help combat that to a certain extent. You know, I think it very much used to be I think, in law, right. But gosh, there's one spot for a woman at the you know, as an equity partner, or as a judge, you know, in a certain type of court. And I think that's changed a lot. in Travis County, for instance, we now have, we have 12 civil district judges. And in the last cycle, we now have 12 women, district judges, and many of them are members of TC why some of them have been very, very active as well. And I think that's not a surprise. I think it's this idea of lifting everybody up as opposed to just yourself. And, you know, I think that you I think you mentioned the idea of you no lifting the ladder up, right, once you get up to the top. And I think that's changed, I think now, you know, at least here in Travis County, or with the Travis County Women Lawyers Association, right. It's not even a ladder, right. Like we're helping to build a staircase up. And we're not all the way there. Don't get me wrong. But I think I think by working together, we're a lot more likely to get there. Makes me think of I think was Sandra Day O'Connor, who said no, maybe it was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who said that, when will there be enough women on the Supreme Court? Not until there's nine. And I think it's true, I think we're going to get there in some areas faster than others. But hopefully, groups like Travis County, when Lawyers Association, other women's group across the country will will really lead the charge on that. And that, you know, growth of women in the very top positions in their fields.

  Erica D'Eramo 27:17

  I love that that quote. And I think it was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but I love it because like the follow up was the follow up from the interviewer was like, well, don't you think that's too many? Because that's, that's also not equitable. And her response was essentially like, but you've had nine men the whole time, and nobody thought it was inequitable. So this is, once we have nine women and nobody blinks an eye at it, then we'll know that we've actually achieved equity, normalization of just seeing women in these spaces to the point that we aren't shocked by by the numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so switching gears a little bit, and maybe going back to sort of where we started, what do you think folks should be thinking about in terms of, you know, planning, whether we call it estate planning, planning for the future? And, and just in terms of some of the work that you do?

  Liz Nielsen 28:11

  Yeah. So you know, I think that when people think about estate planning, and we kind of mentioned this already, right, there's sort of the two sides of it. There's the incapacity planning side, and then planning for what's going to happen to your stuff when you pass away. And I think really planning for both of those situations is really important. So on the sort of incapacity planning side, right, typically, you'll have a document saying, like who would make financial decisions for you, if you couldn't, that's called a financial power of attorney. And it's super important. And especially if you are a business owner, making sure that there's someone that can make decisions for the business if you can't, so important, I worked on a case where a business owner had become incapacitated, and like, they couldn't even figure out how to make payroll for a pretty big company, because really, nobody else had access to it. So I think really thinking through that, and making sure there was a plan is super important. And then you know, the medical documents, we've talked about this, but making sure you have named someone to make medical decisions for you, if you can't make them for yourself is just so important. And then so we do some documents, like you know, a document that says who a doctor can talk to about your medical condition, and usually you'll want more than one person right to be able to talk to the doctor. Because, you know, in families, there's usually more than one person you might want your partner and your parents or your kids or your best friend or all of those people and you can have all of them. And I think that's really important and then talking about that the living will that document that says right if you if you're incapacitated, it looks like you're not going to make it and the doctor has to decide right whether or not to you know, keep you on live so to support or to have it removed. I think having a document and not leaving that up to your family. because it's such a hard decision to make in the moment. And so I think kind of, if you can make that decision ahead of time, it really takes a huge burden off of your family. And so that's sort of the incapacity sign side. And I think that a lot of times that's overlooked, when people think about what estate planning is, but then there's also right planning for what's going to happen after you pass away, like who's going to be in charge? I think that's a really important thing to think about. But then also, you know, who do you want your beneficiaries to be? And I think we were talking about misconceptions. I think one misconception is that people think, gosh, if I don't have any kids, you know, I'm not married, it's going to be really easy. I don't even need a plan. But it's actually the opposite. Planning is a lot easier, if you know who's gonna get your stuff, right. If it's really obvious, it's gonna go to my, my spouse, and then it's gonna go to my kids like, that is so much easier to plan than for someone who's like, well, I support like 40 charities, maybe we can have a go to all of them. I mean, that's, that's a lot harder, it's a lot harder, have a conversation, I'm working with a family right now with a pretty sizable estate, and they don't have any kids and, you know, deciding what's going to happen to it, or how it's going to go to charities in a way that's gonna be beneficial to the charity, you know, leaving a charity $10 million, without any instructions is usually not a great idea. But people are also really hesitant, they don't want to talk to the charities, or because they're worried that oh, my gosh, they're just going to harass me for money for the rest of my life. If I tell them, I'm going to do this, and I work with a lot of development officers at, you know, different nonprofits or universities. And they assure me that if we tell them, gosh, don't please do not contact my clients, except for helping them plan this one gift after they passed away. They promised me that they will honor that. And I do believe them on that, because they have a lot of motivation to make sure that they are going to get that gift that we're talking about. But I think, yeah, it's planning for people that that don't have kids much, much harder. But even if you do have kids, it's really important, of course, especially if you have minor children, they can't receive money out rights, you need to think about that, and who you want to be in charge, on that end, to naming guardianship documents for your kids. And so deciding, you know, who do you want them to live with? What do you want to raise them if you couldn't do it yourself? Really hard things to think about. But just so important, and truly just one of the biggest gifts that you can give your family is a well planned estate. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 32:38

  I think something else that people don't necessarily consider is if they have a family member who is perhaps like receiving state support for disability or, you know, the things become more complex, because you might end up causing unintended consequences by just, you know, handing over a large sum of money to them. And it might actually change their situation in a way that they hadn't expected or planned in terms of the support or resources that they're eligible for, at that point. So,

  Liz Nielsen 33:13

  yeah, I think that's a really good point, I do a lot of planning for families that have children with special needs. And I think, planning in a smart way, it can make a huge difference. Because even if, you know, sometimes families think, Gosh, I've got enough assets that we aren't going to have to worry about governmental benefits like, gosh, you just don't know. Because medical needs change for people. But also, you know, sometimes money doesn't go quite as far as you think it's going to go. And yeah, I think that making sure that you're doing that smart planning is, it's just so important. And it's not so hard to do it on the planning side, but it's really hard to recreate it after someone's passed away. And I didn't end up doing a lot of that kind of trying to figure out Okay, how can we keep this child on benefits that really needs it for their health care? When they received you know, $100,000 from their great aunt, it's challenging, and that really, a little bit of planning can avoid that situation altogether?

  Erica D'Eramo 34:18

  Yeah. So for folks who maybe feel like they wouldn't know where to start, or, you know, they don't know anyone who does this work or, you know, are worried about the cost involved, the upfront and cost involved, like what resources are available, or where would you point them to start as a first step?

  Liz Nielsen 34:37

  Sure. So you know, I think my life and we put out a lot of really great content on this. We have some videos on our website or websites, estate plan. atx.com We have some videos we have a really thorough blog we've been blogging for I don't know Six years twice a week. So we have blogs on pretty much any topic. And you can search through those and find really almost anything that you would want to. We have some videos, we also on our LinkedIn, we post videos on a weekly basis, that just covers some of the basics of estate planning. And let's see what is my LinkedIn, it's Liz dash, Nielsen dash attorney. And so there's some really great content there. We are also working on a podcast. And so we'll have that linked on our website and on our LinkedIn as well. But then, sort of in your local community, I think, looking for board certified or whatever the version of that in your state is really important in Texas to become a board certified attorney, it's, it's really hard. And so it really shows it's an attorney who all they practice is estate planning and probate. And I think for most people, if you can find someone who's a specialist in the field, that's probably a better choice. I'm certainly in some smaller communities, that's not possible. But if you live in a relatively large city, you should be able to find somebody who really focuses in this area of law. And I think that can really help get you started. And then when you call, I would just ask about pricing, we're really transparent about it. And um, we do most of our Estate Planning on a flat price basis. So we have a pretty good idea of what it's going to be and we send out sort of a little handout that just kind of goes over what are the ranges? What can you expect? And I think a lot of attorneys are able to do that as well. So I think just asking questions. When I'm working with a client, I love working with clients who ask questions, as opposed to ones who just kind of sit there quietly and don't I think being engaged in the process is going to make it more fun for you, but also make it so you really understand, you know, what, what documents you're putting together and what you're assigning at the end.

  Erica D'Eramo 36:54

  So there are I have, like, I have to ask this because I feel like it would be at the top of everybody's mind. There are services out there where you can just like log on and put your details in. And they'll spit out some documents for you. Any thoughts that you want to share on?

  Liz Nielsen 37:09

  Yes,

  Erica D'Eramo 37:11

  what you've seen?

  Liz Nielsen 37:13

  Yeah, so you know, in addition to doing estate planning, I also do probate which is where we're going through that legal process after someone passes away. And a lot of times people have wills, which then we have to take to the probate court and have a judge declare, it's valid. And a lot of times we get to probate wills that people have done on their own. We call them the DIY wills, whether it is they've gone on the internet and printed something off, or they, you know, used to be people would go to the library and photocopy them. So we see that sometimes or sometimes people will just handwrite their wills, which you're allowed to do here in Texas. And I will say that I have never dealt with a DIY will that did not have some issue that made it more difficult to probate, whether it's not clear on who the beneficiary is. It doesn't name the executor in the correct way here in Texas, we have something called independent administration, but you have to put that in your will if you want it and a lot of the forms don't include that. Or, you know, the biggest issue I see actually are just wills not signed correctly, here in Texas, and I think in most states is a very specific way that you have to sign the will. And if it's not done correctly, it's just that much harder to probate and putting that much more stress on your family. So yeah, I generally do not recommend the DIY wills, although, you know, if all I'm doing is business development, they're great, because then we can make a lot more money on the probate side.

  Erica D'Eramo 38:47

  Well, yes. I appreciate that transparency. But yes. Sounds like not something that you would recommend for your loved ones.

  Liz Nielsen 38:56

  It's really not.

  Erica D'Eramo 39:00

  But I do think for folks who maybe feel like reaching out to a human being might either be cost prohibitive or that, you know, there are resources available. It sounds like many of those might not be quite fit for purpose to the extent that, you know, they would do the job that is intended. I

  Liz Nielsen 39:18

  think that's right, I know that. And Harun asked, I think a lot of communities, there's a lot of clinics for people who truly can't afford estate planning, pro bono clinics, and I'd say you know, if, if you qualify, I would absolutely take advantage of that here. We have veterans legal clinics where we will do estate planning for veterans. We also have volunteer legal services where they'll connect you with another attorney with an attorney who's able to do that planning and we also have something called the cam Law Clinic, which does estate planning for people who have been diagnosed with cancer to take that one stress off of them. And so I think a lot of communities have these types of resources and I would absolutely I look forward, if that's something that you need.

  Erica D'Eramo 40:02

  Yeah, yeah, that's really great to know, to kind of look out there for what's available versus trying to take that on yourself, and maybe not getting it right, because you didn't have to go through all the law school. So I really appreciate you sharing your insights, both in terms of professional organizations and professional organizations that support women specifically. And then also in terms of planning and what people can be thinking about as, as they're looking at that and kind of debunking some of the myths there. What key lessons would you want our listeners to take away today? Did you have any final thoughts?

  Liz Nielsen 40:43

  Gosh, I think you know, from our conversation, a couple of things that kind of come to mind. One is, I think, just, you know, lifting people up, if you're a minority in an organization, just making sure you're focused on, you know, being collaborative, and helping lift people up, as opposed to kind of just on your own trying to always get to the top, I think we will always do better when we do it together. I think mentoring I think if you are younger, seeking out a mentee, if you're more experienced, being a mentor, maybe having both types of relationships. I know I do, where I certainly do a lot of mentoring, but I'm so appreciative to the people that continue to mentor me. And I think seeking that out is great. And whether you do it through you know, professional organization like Travis County Women Lawyers Association, or you do it, you know, at the company where you work or just kind of informally by reaching out, I, I often end up mentoring, discuss people reach out and ask if I want to have coffee to share with them about my journey, and I'm able to, you know, develop those relationships, which I really, really like. And then I think on the planning side, I think just, you know, not being afraid of estate planning. But instead, you know, learning about it before you start on the process. I find my clients that are educated about estate planning just tend to be better clients for me, but also they end up having better estate plans at the hand. So I think educating yourself but then going to an attorney and having an attorney on help with getting your plan put together is a really it's just really important. It's a really, as I said before, it's a gift for your family when you when you do

  Erica D'Eramo 42:39

  that. Yeah, rather than it being something that you really should or have to do this is something an opportunity for you to make life easier for people that you love. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I again, really appreciate all the free resources that you put out there as well. So in the show notes, and within the transcript will be linking to both your LinkedIn profile will link to your your firm's website. And so people can go and find some of the resources that you've already made available in terms of videos and blogs, and soon to be a podcast which Welcome to the podcasting world. And for anyone that is looking for more of our episodes or the transcript for this episode, you can find that on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And thanks again for joining us today. Liz really appreciated.

  Liz Nielsen 43:37

  Absolutely. Thank you so much, Erica for having me. Yeah, and

  Erica D'Eramo 43:42

  we look forward to seeing our listeners next episode.

  
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Attorney Liz Nielsen has guided hundreds of families through the estate planning process, serving as their trusted advisor to bring peace of mind to their lives. She is the founder of Nielsen Law, a small estate planning law firm in Austin, Texas.  Liz is Board Certified in Estate Planning and Probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. She practices exclusively in the areas of estate planning, special needs planning, and estate administration.

Liz is also President of the Travis County Women Lawyers Association. Giving back to the Austin community is very important to Liz. TCWLA is a nonprofit organization that is committed to supporting issues affecting women both as lawyers and as members of society.  Liz is also Board Vice Chair/President-Elect of AGE of Central Texas, a nonprofit organization that helps older adults and their caregivers thrive as they navigate the realities and opportunities of aging and caregiving.

Finding Support in industry Organizations

In this episode, Liz shares some of the ways that industry organizations such as TCWLA are supporting working professionals and advancing opportunities and change. She also shares her insights on what to look for when considering whether to join an organization and how to get the most benefit from your participation. Lastly, Liz shares some insights into the work she does in helping individuals and families through estate planning. She busts some myths about who this planning applies to and what it entails.

Liz Nielsen's Journey: From Environmental Science to Estate Planning

Liz Nielsen shares her personal journey, tracing her path from studying environmental science to becoming a dedicated estate planning and probate lawyer. She emphasizes her passion for assisting clients through complex legal matters, inspired by her own family's experiences navigating her grandmother's dementia.

Making Estate Planning Accessible to All

Host Erica D'Eramo and Liz highlight the widespread lack of awareness about estate planning, particularly in underserved communities. They stress that estate planning isn't solely for the wealthy; even younger individuals with assets should plan for the future to avoid complications.

Women's Rights and Advocacy in Law

The conversation shifts to women's professional organizations, focusing on TCWLA, a significant advocate for women in the Texas legal community since the 1970s. Liz shares insights into the organization's growth and its impactful advocacy efforts.

Networking Strategies for Introverts in Law

Liz discusses her involvement in TCWLA, emphasizing the group's supportive environment for introverts. She underscores the importance of finding like-minded individuals and engaging in activities beyond traditional networking.

Promoting Diversity and Mentorship

Addressing the lack of diversity in the legal profession, Liz stresses the importance of mentorship, particularly for minority groups. She advocates for inclusive professional networks like TCWLA to combat stereotypes about women not supporting each other.

Advancing Gender Equality in Legal Leadership

Liz highlights progress in women's representation in law but emphasizes the need for further advancement, particularly in leadership roles. Erica and Liz agree that achieving equity means normalizing women's presence in all levels of the legal profession.

Smart Planning for Complex Situations

Erica and Liz discuss the critical aspects of estate planning, including incapacity planning and considerations for families with special needs. Liz emphasizes the importance of seeking professional guidance to ensure comprehensive planning.

The Pitfalls of DIY Wills

Liz advises against using DIY wills, citing potential complications in probate proceedings. She encourages individuals to seek guidance from board-certified estate planning attorneys to navigate the process effectively.

Mentorship and Professional Development

Liz underscores the value of mentorship in professional organizations, highlighting its role in personal and professional growth. She emphasizes the importance of education and seeking professional assistance in estate planning endeavors.

Conclusion

In this insightful conversation with Erica D'Eramo, Liz Nielsen provides valuable insights into estate planning, professional organizations, and the importance of seeking professional assistance in navigating legal complexities.