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Please note: This transcript is autogenerated and may contain errors.
Erica D'Eramo 0:05Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have guest Ellis Ivy joining us to talk about turning historically exclusive spaces into inclusive environments and to share a little bit about his fascinating journey along the way.
So Ellis is the founder and lead instructor of PowerFolx, a grassroots martial arts program offering Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu training specifically for the queer community, a queer and trans martial artist himself with nearly two decades of training experience, Ellis has studied martial arts in diverse settings,from Guatemala City, Guatemala to Hanoi, Vietnam, and across the East Coast of the US. He's passionate about creating a welcoming, collaborative space and a sport that can often feel exclusive. Welcome to the podcast, Ellis, so happy to have you here.
Ellis Ivy 1:03
Thank you for asking me to join you. I'm super honored to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 1:07
Yeah, I I was reflecting on how I wanted to kind of cap off June right, like June is a month of community for me, and it occurred to me that I really wanted to have you on the podcast, because one of the areas that I feel that community supports so deeply is in your Muay Thai space, you know, punching pads and coming together with other folks and getting sweaty. And I just really respect the work that you've done there, so I do really appreciate you're kind of like a guest that I wanted to have for a while. So this is a, you know, a special month to have you to talk about how to create these more inclusive spaces.
Ellis Ivy 1:47
Well, I super appreciate that, and I super appreciate hearing that because, yeah, I mean, that's the kind of space that I wanted to create. And I think I oftentimes have some imposter syndrome around what I'm doing. So it's lovely to hear that it is doing that, at least for some people. So thank you for that. Appreciate that.
Erica D'Eramo 2:10
Yeah, so I want to hear your life story like, what? What's the Ellis origin story that brought you to this, this place of bringing people together to get sweaty and punch some pads.
Ellis Ivy 2:27
Okay, that's a long story
Erica D'Eramo 2:29
Easy peasy.
Ellis Ivy 2:30
I'm gonna give you the crib notes, and then we can, like, go back to some touch points. I, yeah. I mean, I have, like, always been a very physical person. I Ido the best mentally when I'm physically active. I'm very much a kinesthetic learner. I've done a variety of sports throughout my life, and I had spent years doing martial arts, mostly in my adult life, I did more kind of traditional team sports, growing up, soccer, basketball, that kind of stuff. And I had been training at traditional gyms for a long time, and kind of like over the course of several years, getting frustrated with environments that were fine, if that makes sense, and I can like get back to that more later, and I found myself choosing over and over again to not go to the scheduled class times and instead work out by myself in my home gym, hitting a heavy bag. And it got to the point where I was like, I miss the community of group training, but I'm not feeling motivated to go to the places that are available to me. And why is that? And trying to check in around why that was, and ultimately decided that I might try and create the space for myself. So initially it was largely selfish. I wanted a training space. So I was like, well, maybe I can get some other people who want to join that space as well. Yeah, and it started out as something that I thought would just be like a small club type thing that I could get some friends to do, and it has evolved over the years to be what it is today, which is different from my original vision, but probably more and better than what I had been trying to do.
Erica D'Eramo 4:38
Yeah, that's awesome. And I think that, you know, we, in our conversations, we've talked about a little bit about what it's like to sort of be, be the first or bethe only in a space, and it sounded like you had some parallels as well in your journey through, you know, career journey and an adulting journey. Tell me a little bit about, you know, what, what those formative paths were for you?
Ellis Ivy 5:06
Yeah, I think I've spent the vast majority of my life trying to fit into spaces where I am a bit of an outlier from the majority of people who are there and like accepting good enough. And so, you know, I It started out when I was really young. I am queer and trans. I'm Jewish on my dad's side, I'm first gen American. My parents were beekeepers. We traveled from Maine to Florida each year, and I grew up in a really rural part of Maine, so like a very rural part of a very rural state. So from the get go, I have spent most of my life feeling just a little bit different from most of the people around me, and then my interests, my professional interests and my personal interests took me to places where that was probably exacerbated. I was a firefighter for a while when I pre transition, and so experienced kind of being in a minority gender, and at a time when the chief was trying to diversify the firefighting staff pool through hiring, but not through any other support services, so myself and the rest of my recruit school were all sort of, You know, scattered to various firehouses where we were the outliers in an organization that wasn't really there to support us. I've obviously experienced it in the variety of martial arts that I've trained in, and I think I spent a lot of my life feeling like a little bit like, proud of having been toughened by those experiences, right? I'm like, Yeah, I made it in these environments where I was not expected to make it, or I found acceptance in these environments where initially my presence was questioned,and I just think that the older I got and the more comfortable I got settled intomy queer identity and my trans identity, the less I enjoyed or got any kind of self actualization out of the Yeah, I did it kind of thing, and the more I actually just wanted to be around people who understood me, cared about me, celebrated my identity, yeah, I just kind of like, don't want to do that anymore.
Erica D'Eramo 7:59
Gosh, I feel it so deeply. I think, I think I shared like that one moment where I realized, like, oh, I had been so motivated by nobody else is going to tell me I can't do this. Like, I'll show you I'll be successful in this space despite all this. And then realizing, like, wait, who is really benefiting from that, from all of my investment in this space and all you know, me putting forward 110% effort or whatever to prove them wrong, like I am still then beholden to the them, the the this, this framework. So, yeah, I, I don't know, it feels a little bit like being birthed from the matrix or something. And I don't know what that how that happens for different folks, but it feels like a very there's like a before and then after, right? When you that realization of enough?
Ellis Ivy 8:54
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, for me personally, the before had its use, like I did enter into these spaces, I was able to train in a variety of martial arts for years and years and years in a setting where I had access to multiple classes a week and high level training, and I developed a passion for sports that really like fed this need for me to be active, and, as you said, to hit stuff, which I tell people all the time, like the sensation of gloves smacking pads or bags or there's just nothing like it like, it's so incredibly cathartic. It's where i i i It's really how I meditate. And so having that attitude early on of like, yeah, props to me for, like, toughing it out or whatever, did help me get access to those spaces. So I think for a while it served it's. Purpose. But I I just got tired. Yeah, I think I got tired of of even in spaces where I had been training for some time and knew people and, like, had a history with them, I still kind of felt like, you know, at most accepted and and I'm not even saying that these places did anything wrong, but there's, there's something that you can't create from a community of people who are just like tolerant of your presence. They have to really be celebrating your presence, I think. And I think that's what we're trying to do at PowerFolx and at other clubs, groups, organizations around the country that are doing similar things to what PowerFolx is doing right now. And there's, like, quite a few, it's really neat. There's a little bit of a movement, I think, to help queer people access martial arts.
Erica D'Eramo 11:06
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is a Yeah. I appreciate the nuanced approach, because I agree, like I those spaces did enable me to for me, it was travel the world like I wanted to travel the world, and that is what it enabled. And I and itdid build a lot of confidence, too, about really having to go through it in many cases, and also that realization of, like, what it is that you do want true, like, intrinsically and truly, and then building that from scratch, I think, is really powerful. So then tell, tell me what's the secret? How do you do it? It's easy, right?
Ellis Ivy 11:47
I don't know, I don't know that I have all the answers, yeah, and I don't know that I'm doing it perfectly. I don't know that every student who has walked through my doors has felt like they found a home. I'm not I'm not able to get that information from everybody. I hope that they at least felt welcomed. But I think for me, a lot of it does come from my life experience, right? Like things that I wish that people had done for me, when I was in a similar setting, in a similar environment, and avoiding things that felt really bad and really icky to me, right? So never making assumptions about where people are coming to you from, not only about their identity, but their their past experience, their physical condition. I want people to know that regardless of how they present when they come through the doors, I'm not going to make any assumptions, and I'm going to and whatever they're able to contribute is perfect, like if I used to do, I used to do roller derby, and my my instructor used to say something like, if you're moving, you're perfect. Like, if you're here and you're moving, you're perfect. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't look exactly like what I'm doing or or what I've said you should be doing. The fact that you're here and you're moving is perfect. And I like, I try to really, like, carry that however people are able to show up is exactly what what they need to be, and therefore that's exactly what I need them to be.
Erica D'Eramo 13:29
Yeah, yeah. I think that's so fascinating too, because it must for folks who have experienced that, that must feel quite welcoming. I'm curious though, have you found that that is unsettling for folks who I haven't experienced that, or who are so used to having to either mask or code switch or, you know, change themselves.
Ellis Ivy 13:53
Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know if it's unsettling, but I definitely notice a shift when, when people come through the door where they will, oftentimes, when they're coming to class for the first time, will come in their entire way that they are holding themselves is in this sort of like making themselves small, way, you know, like not taking up space, not being loud, a little bit hesitant. Sometimes I have to do this kind of like, come on, come on, come on motion to get them to, like, move from the door into the space that we're occupying. And and I'm really like, happy to see that a lot of times, by the end of class, their body has relaxed and they're comfortable taking up more space, and they're moving through the space more comfortably. And I and I think it's because they've spent, you know, they've probably tried to insert themselves into environments so many times over the course of their lifetime where they never really like found. Felt like they were seen, heard, celebrated, right? And I, I make a point of saying hi to every single person who comes through the door and walking them through the steps, of getting signed up and getting their hands wrapped. And if somebody is sort of standing idly off to the corner and not knowing what to do, pairing them up with a more experienced student, I don't want to, just, like, allow people to drift into the back unseen, right? Yeah, and, and, and I think that that I, I can oftentimes see that visible shift over the course of a class, and then the next time they come back in, the way they enter the building looks a lot different. And that's like, that's a beautiful thing to see.
Erica D'Eramo 15:43
It really is making me think about your comment earlier with one of one of yourcomments actually made me think back to when you mentioned, you know, at the fire department, how there can be this, like inorganic just because you bring in a diversity of experiences, backgrounds, doesn't actually make that thrive. That doesn't make the ecosystem. It's I kind of, I sometimes talk about like, it's like buying a fully grown tomato plant and then planting it and being like it didn't survive. Well, yeah, because she didn't have the right ecosystem tolet it survive. So what I hear you talking through kind of sounds like a bit of that ecosystem. It's not enough to just invite people or place people like there'show, how do you then bring them in, and how do you set the tone?
Ellis Ivy 16:34
Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm assisted by the fact that many of the people who come to my class also want the same thing that I want, right? We all haveexperienced being on the outside and trying to carve space and trying to move past acceptance into something that really feels warm and inviting and embracing. And so, you know, I'm, I'm lucky in that I can set a tone that is so easily carried through the rest of class, right? So I might, I might be making conscious decision, decisions to to make sure that people don't come into the building without being acknowledged and without being greeted. But the rest of the students who have been coming for a while are really carrying that through as well, right? So when we are training together and holding pads for each other, we're meeting each other at whatever our level level is. And if I have one student who has been training for years and went to Thailand to train, and she's perfectly happy and welcoming to train with somebody who's showing up not only to their first martial arts class, but sometimes to the first physical movement that they've done in years or their entire life, and meeting them where They're at without any kind of like judgment or frustration, but just total grace. And so it's not something that I can do on my own. It's because thepeople who are choosing to join us and choosing to stay, I think, have their own reasons for being really committed to creating that kind of environment as well. So yeah, I think whatever kind of setting you're in, whether it's sports orprofession or whatever you if you if that is a goal of yours for your organization, and you are in a position to try and make that happen, you need to have people around you who are also just as committed to making that happen. You can't like our chief did hire a bunch of people who check other boxes that you didn't have before, drop them in like, you know, marbles in the bottom of a bucket and hope that they survive like you have to surround them with people who are as committed to creating that change as you are.
Erica D'Eramo 19:00
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting too, because while that, while the power folk space does not feel hierarchical to me, there is an element of like. These are the expectations of how we will treat each other with respect and like, if you are opting into this community or opting in to treat people with respect and to like engage, and I think that there's some role modeling that does sort of set the tone for the group norms that then help that take hold. So while it's not likea hierarchy, it is sort of a modeling of this is what we value. This is what we thisis what we propagate, right?
Ellis Ivy 19:45
Yeah
Erica D'Eramo 19:46
Yeah
Ellis Ivy 19:47
Yeah, for sure. And I also think like the the like history of the origins of PowerFolx help with that too, because when I first started, my goal was to start a club. Job, I had no intention of having, like, an official organization with a website and an Instagram page where people signed up like that was not in the plans at all. I had been whining and complaining to all of my queer friends about not having a space to train that I felt like excited to go to. And they were all like, well, you know, if you put something together, we would come and so initially I just thought it was creating a club. I was like, I'm just gonna, like, create a space. We're all gonna show up and we're all gonna share our knowledge, and sometimes I'll share, and sometimes you'll share. But what I discovered is that there just like, wasn't enough of a foundation in the queer community locally, in the type of stuff that I was hoping we would do for other people to feel comfortable sharing. And so I kind of like reluctantly stepped into this, yeah, leadership or hosting role where I'm like, Okay, well, clearly I need to guide the classes, but it always came from this, like, initial desire to have a collaborative club. And like, I still hope that that is as people's experience deepens and as they find more training opportunities, that it still can become that in the future where other people step up and lead classes, and other people are like, Hey, I'm gonna go try out class in this other location, or I'm gonna go watch this queer tournament in this other state. Does anybody want to come? Like, that is the end goal. And so I do think that that still kind of drives the culture, even though the format of classes has changed.
Erica D'Eramo 21:46
Yeah, it makes me think back to, like my yoga teacher training, of just creating the container, like creating that space. And it's not power over, right? It's not like directional in nature, but it's just creating the container that is conducive to, then the types of interactions, or like helping to create that container. And there, there was something that you mentioned, like as you were talking through the people coming into class and and the change in body posture from that more like what I call my defensive crouch, where my, where my, like pec muscles are just really doing a lot of work somehow that's going to keep me safe. But it made me think this, think through this concept of safety, actually, and, you know, we hear, especially in the coaching realm, or consultants, facilitators, you hear a lot about like, this is a safe space, and how, really, we don't get to decide if it's a safe space. We get to strive to create a space where people feel safe. And as you were talking through, it just felt like that. You're watching to see how people feel, and striving for, it sounds like striving for that intention of safety while recognizing, like everybody's coming with their own stuff. Like
Ellis Ivy 23:10
Yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting, because I was just this morning in a different event for my my day job, and somebody countered the term safe space with Brave space. Like you can create the space, and you can invite people in, and you can, I think, the way I interpreted it, I didn't get a definition during the session, but the way I interpreted it was, you can set the environment in the parameters for people to be willing, to be brave, which and then and then support that right, and that feels a lot more like what I'm trying to Do, because I find intimidate. I find it intimidating to think about creating safe spaces, because what each individual person needs for safety is so vastly different. And I've actually been in situations where, you know, a group is tryingto set norms, and it's like you're just no matter how hard you think about it, andno matter how much stuff you put in place, you're not gonna hit every point that is needed for every person in the room, but if you're doing it right, you will create a space where the person who is left out feels comfortable raising their hand and being like but I also need this Yes, and so I do not believe that I can create an environment at power folks, where every single person who walks through the door feels like I have thought about everything that they might need. Yeah. But I am hoping that I can create a space where they can ask for it. So, like a really specific example is, I had a student come with his mom, and it was his first class. I could tell he was nervous. He did the sort of like, you know, what did you call it? Again. I called it a defensive crouch,your defensive crouch on the way in. But about 15 minutes into class, he, like, very intentionally, came up to me and was like, Hey, do you have a chair? My mom is over there standing, and I don't want her to have to stand the whole class. And I was like, Oh yeah, you know, I, like, got into the swing of teaching, and I was focused on what I was doing for that day, and I really didn't even, like, lookover there and see what was going on. So I, like, immediately, like, ranoff and found a chair for her to sit in. And that's I can't I can't be all things to everybody, and I can't predict what everybody's gonna need. But I'm so incredibly happy that that young person who had was coming into a space that they'd never been in before, after just a few minutes, was willing to, like, come up to me and ask for something that he needed. So, yeah
Erica D'Eramo 26:14
Yeah, that's, it's like, it's like an upgradeable model, right? You can't it's, it's sort of like the growth mindset versus fixed mindset. If you if there's this, like perfect end state, then that feels so weighty and impossible to achieve, versus opening up, having curiosity, creating the methods for people to speak their needs and opt in when it's right for them. So
Ellis Ivy 26:40
I think it also sometimes creates so much intentionality that it makes people, like, a little bit, walk on eggshells, yeah? And so I'm, I'm trying, like, I'm trying to create a space where there are some parameters in place, but for the most part, what you get is that if you need something, you can ask for it, and that your and that the People in the space are committed to embracing and celebrating all of our unique identities, right? And I and I hope that that sort of,like, relaxes the space a little bit too, because in the end, you need to get on the mat, and you need to move your body and breathe heavy and start to, like,really feel your body and let your brain go somewhere else. And if we are like thinking about all of our actions too much, we're not going to be able to really lean into the meditative aspect of the physical movement, which is what I find so much joy.
Erica D'Eramo 27:54
Which then also makes me think about like the energy losses, the psychological and physical energy losses of having to conform so heavily and so often when we are in spaces that are not safe for whatever reason, our brain is doing so many calculations right about, like, how am I standing How do I deliver, what's the tone of my voice? Like all of these different little things that it's calculating for that is not actually being present in the moment, with the task at hand, even if it's happening kind of background noise, like naturally.I think it's like letting go of a weight. Sometimes, when you do enter into a space where you're you can show up and, you know, relax those shoulders, back down, and just be your natural, weirdo self and not have to do that constant feedback loop of, like, hyper vigilance, readjust, readjust, readjust.
Ellis Ivy 28:50
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and sometimes it is a readjustment that I will take on board. You know, if somebody brings up something, I'm like, Ah, you know, I didn't really even think of that like I'm going to start doing that from from now on, and that's great too, because the way in which classes are delivered and how the space is set up has definitely evolved over time, and a lot of that has been feedback from from the students. So yeah, and they're happy to give me that feedback. So I love that, yeah, I and that's, that's kind of what, sorry I was just gonna say. That's kind of what a lot of the spaces that I was in historically were missing, right? Is like, if I was in them and something didn't sit right, I also didn't feel like I could go and say anything to anybody.
Erica D'Eramo 29:39
Yeah.
I mean to it makes me a little sad too, though, if I think about like extrapolatingthat out into the world, how many people are navigating workspaces or teams or organizations where that means. That means that some portion of their brain is going to that staying safe is not being able to speak their needs or have the adjustments made, which might even be easy adjustments, right? They might even be something that like could but because that upgradability of the space, that openness and welcomingness Isn't there that's, you know, in in mergers and acquisitions, you would call that like leaving money on the table, right? It's just like value that's lost because it's there are barriers there to accessing it.
Ellis Ivy 30:32
Yeah, yeah. And I, we live in a real messed up world, in a real messed up timeline right now. And I do not have all the answers, but I will say that for me personally, when I have been in those spaces, like finding either even one otherperson that I did feel like I could create brave space with who could who could hear me. And then, you know, I, I would lean on that person and and sometimes that attracted other people who also were feeling the same way and had not been willing to say anything. But I do think I, I do think that we should be striving to find those places and everybody I can't I am not giving people advice about their personal life, their work life, or anything, because we all come from different places and different levels of privilege. And what is accessible to me is absolutely not going to be accessible to everyone. But for me, like finally getting to the point where I wasn't willing to just for something to just be good enough, was impactful and revolutionary for me. And if you do, if you do have the ability to do that, and you haven't been pushing for it, then like, push a little harder. Like, either where you are or if you have, if you can start looking for other spaces that will give you that. Like, if you can stop settling, just stop, you know, like for me, I think, I think I just didn't realize that was something I could do. It was I had experienced that for so much of my life that I was like, Yeah, this is as good as it gets. It's just like, being somewhat tolerated is fine, but it's not so. Like, if it is just a mental switch for you that youhaven't processed yet, then try processing that and see if that can open some doors for you.
Erica D'Eramo 32:42
Yeah, like fine little beta test pilot programs. Yeah, I think I shared with you that we went into a an intentional foster fail for a kitten that when we visited the kitten at the shelter. And I'm mentioning this also because I think you has have some background in Animal Rescue. So they had said, sort of this, this kittens not, probably not gonna end up bonding with humans, you know, like, just really not into human touch, recovering from an illness. And, yeah, nobody wants a I was like, nobody wants a project cat. Nobody, you know, you can't save them all. Was sort of the feeling about this cat, and I get it, the cat was like, Do not touch me. Do not come near me. Do not give me treats. I don't want anything to do with humans. We did end up giving that cat a chance. And just like, literally within an hour of being out of that environment and being able to just decompress. And I know it's not this timeline for everybody, like for some animals, it's months, and some animals, it's never right, but the total 180 change that we saw in that animal was wild like this is the most affectionate, playful, needy kitten I think I've ever met, and it reminded me of the human experience of kind of going into that defensive crouch, into the space, checking it out, and then by the end, like some physical movement, some having your base needs met, connecting. And it's a totally different experience, like totally different dynamic.
Ellis Ivy 34:15
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think that finding community that feels like that can be the kind of like light bulb moment to give you the contrast to the community that doesn't feel like that, and maybe can help us sort of push backin settings where we might be able to get away with it. I mean, I think, I think I spent a lot of my life not speaking up in situations where speaking up actually wasn't gonna do me real harm or real damage. And again, I need to caveat it, because this is. Not true for everybody, and I'm not suggesting that people like go into spaces where there could be situations that turn out bad for them, but for me, I think that i There were situations throughout my life that I could have pushed back harder on that I didn't, because of that kind of, like, it's good enough attitude. And when I when I did choose to push back, sometimes it wasactually fine, and things got better, you know. And like, it was awkward and uncomfortable and stressful, but like, nothing super bad happened. And that is not always going to be the situation, but it kind of has, like, helped me be like, oh, you know, there are times where, like, I'm relatively safe and I, and it's mostly just like my own resistance to creating conflict or putting myself in awkward situations where I haven't said anything, and if I, if I do, if I am like, I don't want just like fine To be fine anymore. Like, I want it to be better. And I'vetried for that. Sometimes it's worked, and also sometimes I'm like, exhausted and I don't want to and I'm like, I'm not doing it. But I do think that that sort of like shift in my mindset, of like, when I really started leaning into my queer identity, and once I came out as trans, and started finding a community of people who really did accept me, like, wholeheartedly for who I was and be really excited about who I was, that kind of helped me be like, Oh yeah, I want better than what this Other stuff has been, you know, and I and I think that that community you're talking about like leading by example. I think it's like acceptance in into the queer community, and having the people that I've, I've developed relationships with in my chosen family, like really embrace and celebrate me, was the examples that I needed to be successful at Power Folks too, you know.
Erica D'Eramo 37:26
Yeah, it's like a ver once you see what is possible, it like there's this virtuous cycle almost of, you know, it's like folks who have only been in non supportive relationships, or something like, Once you're in a supportive relationship, you'relike, oh, right, I'm not willing to put up with that stuff anymore. Like, it's possible to have my needs met. Oh, okay.
Ellis Ivy 37:47
Yeah. And I think part of the reason that we very intentionally use the word queer rather than LGBTQ is because I want to leave space for Power Folks is for the queer community, and I've made that like very clear, it's not it's not for well intentioned allies, but it is for anybody who is on their journey of self discovery, And I want it to be available to people, whether they have a label ornot, right? And people's queer people's journey towards discovering their queeridentity looks very different for everybody, and I I have, I have experience withmy my own, in my own marriage, because my partner is a CIS, presenting straight, identifying or straight, presenting a map, person who has had an even, I would say, even more kind of like drawn out and slower journey towardsself discovery than I have, and for a really long time, would not use the word queer and would not enter into queer spaces, and wouldn't use labels that ultimately were very obviously their labels, because they felt like they couldn't take up spaces. They couldn't take up space in environments where they presented as a tall, large, straight, cis white man. And I, and I get that like, I understand that other people coming into that space can can can feel intimidated by that, but like everybody who is on a journey towards self discovery, should be welcome and invited to the class and but I don't want youto have to figure out which letter of the alphabet applies to you.
Erica D'Eramo 39:56
Yeah
Yes, that's a yeah, that is a good distinction, because it's not always safe for folks to pick a letter, or they're not ready, necessarily to pick their
Ellis Ivy 40:10
Or they're never going to be because they're just like, I'm just me, yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 40:16
Yes. Oh, there was, there was one last thing that I wanted to, I wanted to mention that you mentioned in the very beginning, which was how good it feels to hit something. And I mentioned to somebody about how I love this space and just feel so good. And I get to close my stress cycle, and it feels so good to like punch some pads and and they the response was, oh, I don't do violence. And I was like, no, no, I don't, I don't like violence either. But there's something about, like, you know, hitting a softball with a song with a bat, you know, or, like, a clap, or there's, there's something about that connection, and also the smile of the person holding the pads. Or, you know, that is almost like my dance, you know, when I dance, when I do salsa, it feels similar in that kind of connection with another human, and the physical exertion of it can be so helpful for our nervous system. So I want to throw that out there in case there's anything else you wanted to share on that.
Ellis Ivy 41:16
Yeah. I mean, I'm not a neuropsychologist or scientist of any kind, and I can only speak to my own personal experience, but there is real intense need in m body to be physical, and there is something about like you said, the the the contact that is so cathartic and releasing, and whether it's like my foot smacking a soccer ball, or my palm smacking a volleyball, or my glove punching a pad, whatever it is that smack there's, there's like a moment that's almost like chemistry when it pop, pop, pop, that there's a release. Stuff comes out of me, right? Stuff that I don't want in there, and I feel a million times betterafterwards. And it's not violence, but it is intensity. And so I think that there is a physical intensity to martial arts that is incredibly cathartic. And the more stressed out I am, the better it feels, the more significant improvement it has on my mental health, and it's something that I wish that everybody could experience at least once before. You know the Don't knock it before you try it. Or, or we have we say, like, have a no, thank you, helping a food that you think you're not going to like, right? Like, just, just try it before you decide if you're going to like it or not, because it's the release for me, is just so instant. And in our like all levels class, we don't hit each other ever. We only hit pads. And so it's, it's so the opposite of violence. It is. It is collaborative and cooperative and and not only are you hitting something in that as a release, but somebody is helping you to achieve that because they are holding a pad for you. So it's, it's, it's something that you're doing with people that you're learning to love and grow with. And, yeah, it's, I don't know how else to describe it, but it's amazing. I'm glad you brought that up, because I obviously very passionate about it.
Erica D'Eramo 43:45
I'm I find so often, especially like, you know, we joke the email, this email is, cansomebody tell my nervous system that this email is not actually trying to kill, like, eat me, like a tiger or whatever? Like, we just, we layer on and layer on and layer on all of that, like nervous system activation, and it's not, there are not a lot of spaces or, you know, places or or ways to kind of help move that through and and create that. I don't know. It's almost like a vibration or something. It's like a resonance.
Ellis Ivy 44:25
Yeah, and it's really interesting if you watch professional Muay Thai matches, particularly with people who have trained in Thailand a lot of times when one competitor lands a particularly good strike, the other competitor will laugh andsmile, the one who actually got hit. And I'm not saying that that that that level of training can't get violent, because obviously the whole point is to hit each other, but they also are clearly getting something out of it. They're like, Oh, man, that was a good one. You got me. So there's something in that controlledenvironment where you can be physical with that intentionality, but there are rules and parameters around it, whatever the rules and parameters are, whatever level you get to. And in my class, the rules and parameters at the at the all levels, class anyway, are like we don't hit each other, whatever level you're at that that that guidance and that protective shield around that intensity of physical movement, I think, creates space to find joy and, like, actual laughter in it. So, yeah, I love it. I'm hoping I can do it for the rest of my life.
Erica D'Eramo 45:39
You did. You did a exercise where we're supposed to, like, try to touch a shoulder, or something like, and I don't really, I really don't like to be touched. It's like a thing for me. I really don't like to be especially without consent. But when somebody asks consent, or when I understand what the terms are, like, I'm I can be down with it. So that was such a fun activity for me. And I was laughing so much that I was like, fine with that interaction, you know, like, it really was, it was fun. It was really good.
Ellis Ivy 46:10
Yeah, I brought that activity into Power Folks pretty late in the history, I think, only started doing it about six months ago, and we're going on our, like, well into our second year at this point, because I was concerned, because I There are a lot of people who come in with either it's the way their brain operates, or past trauma or history, they don't want to be touched. And so I was a little bit worried that, like some people wouldn't want to do that activity, but instantaneously, the whole space is like laughing their heads off. When I take photo and video of that particular activity, it's like, people are just they it's hilarious. I don't know why, but it really is. And so it's like, it's like, there's so much joy in that, and it's joy in an activity that you, like you said, some people might normally find they don't want to do, but for some reason, in this environment, because of the speed in which we're moving and the comfort that we have with the people around us, and the fact that there's a rule set that governs it and we know what's expected from us, we can lean into that and really enjoy in a way that we can't in other environments.
Erica D'Eramo 47:14
Yeah, and it makes it socially acceptable for me to duck out of the way when somebody tries to touch me.
Ellis Ivy 47:20
You're probably particularly good at it.
Erica D'Eramo 47:22
I am actually really good at it. So, so, okay, I really appreciate, like, all the different territory we covered today. If there's one key takeaway for our conversation today, for the listeners, what, what would be the the highlight, or the, I don't know, the headline.
Ellis Ivy 47:41
If you have been thinking about doing something and have been too nervous to try it, just power through. If you think that you've found an activity or in a community where you might be able to be embraced and you've been waiting to pull the trigger, just do it. And the reason I say that is because I watch a cycle of my students, and it is, first they follow me on Instagram, and then sometimes they will sign up for a class, but then they can't make it, and they have to cancel. And they might do that a couple times, and then they do come to class, but they come in, you know, with that protective crouch, and they're not sure, and then by the end of the first class, they're loving it, and they come back over and over again, but it took them six months to get to that point, right? So my advice would be, if you found, like, a crafting group, or people who love Golden Retrievers, whatever it is, that thing that you think that you might like, that you might find your community of people, and you've been hesitant, just rip the band aid off and do it and see if you can find your space.
Erica D'Eramo 48:49
I love that. That's a great that's a great note to end on. And we will definitely be including a link to the PowerFolx information in the show notes, so folks can check it out there, and they can access summary of our conversation or the full transcript if they want to on the website. So yeah, thanks so much Ellis for coming on and having this discussion with us, and I really appreciate it.
Ellis Ivy 49:13
Thank you so much for inviting me to come. I, it's exciting to talk about things that I'm so passionate about so this has been really enjoyable. Thank you.
Erica D'Eramo 49:23
Yeah, thanks. And for our listeners, we will see you next episode.
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Building Community by Honoring the Individual - with Ellis Ivy
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo sits down with Ellis Ivy, founder of PowerFolx, a queer- and trans-centered martial arts program that is redefining what inclusion looks like in fitness. Together, they explore how martial arts can become a source of connection, healing, and empowerment for those often excluded from traditional gym spaces.
Whether you're in the LGBTQ+ community, a martial artist, or someone looking to build more inclusive environments, this conversation offers deep insights into how movement and community intersect.
From Feeling Excluded to Creating PowerFolx
Ellis Ivy’s martial arts journey has taken him from Guatemala City to Hanoi to cities up and down the U.S. East Coast. But despite his passion for Muay Thai and movement, Ellis often found traditional gyms unwelcoming—especially as a queer and trans person. Instead of giving up, he chose to build what he couldn’t find: a space where people like him could train, thrive, and belong.
That space became PowerFolx—a community-centered martial arts program designed specifically for queer and trans individuals. What started as a small training group has evolved into a structured, affirming program where inclusion isn’t an afterthought—it’s the foundation.
The Challenge—and Pride—of Being an Outlier
Photo Credit: Kyle Warnock Photography
Growing up in rural Maine and later working as a firefighter, Ellis was no stranger to being the only visibly queer or trans person in the room. Early on, his strategy was to prove himself in order to gain respect. But that changed.
Instead of constantly adapting to spaces that didn’t fit, Ellis began to ask: What if I didn’t just fit in? What if I could be fully seen and celebrated?
This mindset shift became a turning point—both personally and professionally.
Redefining Inclusivity in Martial Arts
At PowerFolx, inclusivity isn’t just a value—it’s embedded in how classes are run. Ellis emphasizes the importance of not making assumptions about a student’s identity, body, or experience level. From the first moment someone walks into class, the goal is to make them feel seen and welcomed.
Erica and Ellis discuss how even small acts—like greeting people by name or adapting movements—can drastically change how safe and empowered someone feels. Over time, students’ posture and energy visibly shift. That transformation is one of the clearest signs that the space is working.
Community Support as a Foundation for Inclusion
One of the core strengths of PowerFolx is its community. Ellis shares how students support one another across different skill levels, building a culture that values encouragement over competition. That culture doesn’t happen by accident—it’s modeled and reinforced by the people who show up.
Erica and Ellis discuss how this kind of peer-driven support is essential for lasting impact.
Brave Spaces, Not Just Safe Spaces
Ellis introduces the concept of a brave space—a place where people are encouraged to show up as their full selves. In brave spaces, asking for accommodations or sharing personal needs isn’t seen as a burden—it’s welcomed.
One touching example? A student asking if their mom could sit in on class. That simple request was met with openness and care, which to Ellis, is exactly the point: inclusion means people don’t have to second-guess whether they belong.
Movement as a Tool for Mental Health and Healing
Martial arts can be intensely cathartic. Ellis and Erica talk about the emotional and psychological release that comes with striking pads, moving with intention, and being fully present in your body. For many in the queer and trans community, this kind of physical expression is a powerful mental health tool.
They also discuss the energy cost of constantly masking or conforming in non-inclusive spaces. In contrast, PowerFolx creates an environment where energy is restored, not depleted.
Fluid Identities and Open Language
Why does PowerFolx use the word “queer” rather than the full LGBTQ+ acronym? Ellis explains that language matters, and so does flexibility. The term “queer” allows room for people who are still discovering themselves—or who don’t resonate with labels at all.
He shares the story of his partner’s journey of self-discovery and how being part of a queer-centered community helped create space for exploration and belonging.
The Joy of Movement, the Power of Consent
Not everything has to be heavy. Ellis highlights the joy that comes from movement in affirming spaces. One of his favorite class moments involves a partner exercise in which students ask for consent before making physical contact. What begins as a consent practice often ends in giggles and playfulness.
These moments aren’t incidental—they’re evidence that joy and laughter can coexist with discipline and challenge.
Advice for Those on the Edge of Trying
Erica asks Ellis what advice he has for people who want to try something new but are afraid they won’t belong. His answer? Show up anyway. Ellis shares that many of his students took weeks or even months to build up the courage to attend a class—but once they did, they often found a level of belonging they didn’t know was possible.
Final Reflections: Build the Spaces You Need
Photo Credit: Kyle Warnock Photography
As the conversation wraps up, Erica and Ellis reflect on the importance of community, courage, and conscious space-making. Ellis encourages listeners not just to seek inclusive environments, but to be part of creating them.
In a world that often tells marginalized people to shrink or hide, spaces like PowerFolx are a radical act of celebration.
Want to Learn More?
Follow PowerFolx on social media (@PowerFolx on IG or powerfolx.bsky.social on Bluesky) or visit PowerFolx’s website to learn more about upcoming classes, community events, and how to get involved.
Listen to the full episode on the Two Piers Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.