Reconstructing Inclusion: Amri B. Johnson on Building Systems That Work for Everyone

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Reconstructing Inclusion: Amri B. Johnson on Building Systems That Work for Everyone

In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo welcomes Amri B. Johnson—social capitalist, epidemiologist, and founder of Inclusion Wins—for a deep, provocative conversation on what it really takes to create inclusive organizations. Drawing from public health, systems thinking, and his lived experience, Amri challenges the status quo in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) and shares how we can move beyond performative gestures to meaningful, systemic change.

Who Is Amri B. Johnson?

Erica opens the conversation with an introduction to Amri’s multifaceted background—part strategist, part social scientist, part spiritual cultivator. As CEO of Inclusion Wins and author of Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable and Sustainable (affiliate link), Amri helps organizations design inclusion systems that don’t just check boxes—they reshape how people relate, lead, and work.

Born in Topeka, Kansas and now based in Basel, Switzerland, Amri brings both a global perspective and a grounded, human-centered approach to his work.

Inclusion as Interdependence

Central to Amri’s approach is the concept of interdependence—the idea that inclusion is not about helping “others,” but about acknowledging how fundamentally connected we all are. When DEI efforts are siloed or bolted on, they often miss the point.

“DEI has to be aligned with purpose,” Amri explains. “It can’t just live off to the side.”

He shares his framework for emergent inclusion, which focuses on:

  • Recognizing interdependence

  • Making inclusion accessible and practical

  • Aligning DEI with the organization's core mission

The Real-World Cost of Poor Relational Fitness

Amri tells the story of a tech firm that made gender diversity a hiring priority—but failed to prepare its teams to navigate the tensions that followed. The result? Misalignment between junior (mostly female) and senior (mostly male) staff, and a lot of avoidable conflict.

This is where “relational fitness” comes in—a concept Amri uses to describe the interpersonal and team-level skills needed to manage difference well.

DEI efforts, he argues, will stall unless we prepare organizations to live with diversity, not just hire for it.

Go Upstream, or Stay Stuck

Borrowing from his background in public health, Amri urges organizations to take a more upstream approach—one that focuses on preventing exclusion and inequity before they emerge.

He draws a sharp distinction between:

  • Treatment-based approaches (diversity trainings, one-off initiatives, reactive responses), and

  • Prevention-based approaches (building inclusive culture through early education, systems design, and structural changes).

“Equity,” he says, “is often treated like a fix, when it should be a design principle from the beginning.”

Moving Beyond Representation

Erica and Amri discuss a trap many organizations fall into: focusing on representation (who's in the room) without addressing the conditions that shape whether people stay, thrive, or contribute meaningfully.

DEI isn’t just about numbers. It’s about building environments where people can do their best work, challenge assumptions, and shape the future of the organization.

Engage the Dissenters

Amri encourages leaders to engage with those who may disagree with or be skeptical of DEI efforts. Avoiding those voices, he warns, leads to echo chambers and watered-down change.

“If we’re serious about reconstructing inclusion,” he says, “we need to be in dialogue with the full spectrum of perspectives—not just the ones we’re comfortable with.”

Explore Amri's Work

Amri closes by inviting listeners to engage with his content across multiple platforms:

Erica D'Eramo