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Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we're diving into systems thinking, the lens that connects coaching, engineering and academia. How do complex systems impact leadership? What role does coaching play in helping people navigate those systems, and how can a structured yet adaptive approach drive innovation and excellence. So joining me today is our favorite guest, Dr. Anthony Luevanos an expert in leadership and organizational development, human systems dynamics and group effectiveness and strategy. Together, we'll explore how systems thinking isn't just a framework, it's a game changer in leadership productivity and personal success. So let's jump in.
Erica D'Eramo 0:55
Thanks for joining us. Anthony.
Dr. Luévanos 0:58
Yeah, thanks, Erica, I'm excited to be here and to explore how systems thinking can transform leadership and decision making.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06
Yeah, this is a topic I was so excited to talk to you about, because I think that you and I come from just such different perspectives, different kind of academic paths and and career paths and lived experience that this is a really interesting intersection of our worlds and our studies. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to talk about it with you, like the engineer in me is really excited to talk to you about it. And this is, I know, an area that you when I when I added that description of what I consider you an expert in you've got, like, the street cred and the credentials to really back it up. So So yeah, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective. I love having you as a part of the team.
Dr. Luévanos 1:55
For sure. Appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo 1:57
Yeah. So tell it for folks who haven't heard the Dr. Luevano story. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and you know, like you as a human and what brought you to this work.
Dr. Luévanos 2:05
Well, I started out as a as a school administrator, and so I went pretty deep into how to run organizations, how to develop leaders. You know, from the basic building blocks of our systems to kind of the interaction between systems. And so I started out as a teacher, then went into administration and and then went into kind of the larger scope of the organization and how each of those components operate with it, with each other, to get the job done at the end of the day, which is to produce these wonderful people for society, and for them to function in society. And then my vision was taken or my work took me from how those organizations operate to kind of how the larger system of society operates and how we interact with each other and provide those opportunities to transform what we have and to make decisions based on the kind of the total scope of what we represent.
Erica D'Eramo 3:20
Yeah, yeah. People ask me all the time, like, how did, how did you go from being an engineer to a coach? That seems like a really big leap, but I laugh, because it's really all just about problem solving and asking, you know, like, what is the problem we're actually trying to solve here? And so as you were talking through that, it just made me think how so often one of the most powerful questions we can ask as coaches is like, what do we what are we actually trying to do here? And then let's, you know, let's take it back a step. And I think that's where there's probably a lot of commonality between organizational development consultants and and leadership coaches and engineers, right?
Dr. Luévanos 3:59
Oh, for sure, yeah, lots of common ground there. I think systems thinking is usually thought of from an engineering point of view, and it's it has it, it compasses more than what engineers do. So it's not just for engineers, but for organizational leaders in general, and looking at the greater scope of what is involved with the individual components of organizations, and thinking about how these components and organizations interact and relate to each other.
Erica D'Eramo 4:41
Yeah. So tell us a little bit about like, you know, we've kind of gotten the highlight. But when you think about systems thinking, how do you how do you define that?
Dr. Luévanos 4:53
Yeah, so essentially, systems thinking is understanding how these different parts of a system interact with one. Another. And so rather than focusing on isolated components from a siloed approach, it's about recognizing patterns feedback loops and long term consequences, instead of just short term fixes. And so in leadership, this means moving beyond that linear problem solving model where you address symptoms towards tackling root causes by looking at the bigger picture. So whether in your you're in business, healthcare, education, engineering, Assistant, systems thinking helps leaders to navigate the complexity with a holistic mindset.
Erica D'Eramo 5:40
So how, when you think about how this applies across, kind of our different realms of coaching, engineering, academia, what what comes to mind?
Dr. Luévanos 5:53
Absolutely. So one example that comes to mind is what I've read just kind of tangentially with Lee Iacocca, but more specifically with Toyota's, like lean factoring, lean manufacturing approach. They didn't just optimize individual processes. They looked at the entire scope, the entire production system, identifying bottlenecks, waste, inefficiencies, and so by them addressing the systemic issues, rather than taking an isolated approach or a solid approach, they're able to identify isolated or dramatically improve their efficiency and produce great products and reduce costs overall. They're able to look at these blind spots and enhance quality. And in my own field, you know, I was able to look at the organization as a whole, solving systemic issues, as opposed to just addressing curriculum, instruction, assessment, human resource development, professional level, and I was able to look at how this all interacts to create, again, these products and reduce costs for our, for our, our particular organization, and improve overall outcomes for the organization, and really transform education as a whole, as the organization, but also transform leadership thinking,
Erica D'Eramo 7:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many times in an engineering capacity, you end up so focused on some little piece of the system that's malfunctioning or that you're having to repair, and when you just pull back and say, like, what are we actually, ultimately, what's the what, what is the outcome of this process supposed to be? And maybe we eliminate that piece of the process entirely, like, maybe there's a totally better way to get to what we're trying to get to. And in coaching, I don't know how. I mean, it's so classic that you'll say, like, what's the higher order goal here? Or to, you know, Simon Sinek language of start with, why Right? Like, why are we doing this? And in engineering, you might call it a five whys right. When something breaks, you do a five whys investigation. Like, why did it break? Okay, but why did that happen? And then why did that other thing happen? And you go all the way back. So it does feel like there's a lot of cohesiveness here between this sort of pulling back, pulling up, and getting a broader approach to really understand, like, what are we truly trying to do and what's the most effective way to do it?
Dr. Luévanos 8:27
Yeah, and I think Peter Senge kind of highlights this in his book, The Fifth Discipline, he's considered, kind of a guru in that area of systems thinking, and maybe even kind of, if you say it in such a way, kind of the one of the fathers of systems thinking, but he says the easy the easy way out usually leads back in. Yeah, what you know, what that means is that just reinforces the idea that avoiding complexity results in repeating a cycle of failure. And so you got, you've got to dig, dig deeper, and, you know, go into the fire. And so it's, it's incredibly important to look at it from that perspective.
Erica D'Eramo 9:15
Yeah, we like classic terminology around failure analysis, you know, root cause failure analysis. Sometimes I find it really helpful to bring that even into the human perspective of when we start to look at like, Why didn't these humans do the thing we expected them to do? And it's so easy to just go straight to, well, they were lazy, or they just don't have a good work ethic, or they're just incompetent and like, those are just, you know, thought terminating concepts right there. It doesn't bring you any further to actually ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Um, so taking it back to kind of that root cause failure. And I was like, what did we have? The were the expectations clear? Did we have the. Processes in place? Do we have the resources that folks needed, and just really understanding from a more systems perspective, what went wrong? Because, like you said, if you just fix that one thing, if you just reprimand that one person, that one time, I can assure you, it's just gonna happen again.
Dr. Luévanos 10:17
Right! Exactly!
Erica D'Eramo 10:18
Yeah. So when you when you think about what makes coaching essential, especially for leaders navigating some of this complexity that you mentioned, like, what are your thoughts?
Dr. Luévanos 10:35
Well, I think coaching is all about expanding perspective, right? We ask the questions. We dig a little deeper, and leaders often operate within or with mental models that limit their thinking. And so what we do as coaches is coaching helps them to set step back and see the interconnections they previously ignored. And I think, for example, instead of seeing a performance issue as just an individual problem, I think coaching helps leaders explore organizational culture, maybe even communication breakdowns and some of those systemic challenges that they're facing.
Erica D'Eramo 11:22
Yeah, that that role of coach. People often think that we tell people what to do right, that we advise them on what they should do, when really what we're usually doing is either holding up a mirror or asking these illuminating questions that then reveal the connections that are important to that individual, because, like our one lived experience or our our one perspective is not actually as important unless we're coming in as a consultant, right? If you are being, if you are being asked to come in and and lend your subject matter expertise on something, certainly we can talk about best practice, but that coach perspective really often just will highlight the questions that we ask will often bring to bear these details or context that, like, we wouldn't have known because we weren't there, we weren't in the situation. So as the coach, we wouldn't know it. But that's not what's important, right? It's the leader. It's the individual who suddenly has the realization about, like, Oh, this is why it's happening, right? Like this. That's the penny drops like you see it. Almost every coaching session, some penny drops.
Dr. Luévanos 12:26
Right, right. And you mentioned two things that I think are important, and that's reframing and visualization. And I encourage leaders to use visual mapping techniques like causal loop diagrams or mind maps to see how different elements connect. And so I also help try to help them break down the complexity into manageable layers. And, you know, just had a conversation the other day. So, you know, like, instead of tackling everything at once, what we need to do is focus on key leverage points where just small changes can have a huge impact?
Erica D'Eramo 13:02
Yeah, I think right now, especially, there's just so much volatility in the world. I mean, there's so much unknown, and I think a lot of people are feeling very overwhelmed, and especially folks who have a risk oriented mindset, right? Like a risk mitigation oriented mindset, which is certainly a lot of leaders, a lot of engineering types, but that that can be, there's so many inputs that it can kind of overwhelm the system, the brain system. And so what you mentioned really brings me back to this concept of, like, what options do you have right now. Like, what are, what are the levers, what are the choices that you have available to you right now? Because if we Yes, it's great to look at the bit the larger system. But if we really just, like, expand too far and don't get clear about, like, what are the options right now, we stagnate, right we get, like, frozen or stuck. So...
Dr. Luévanos 14:03
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think a key aspect, and I go over this with my leaders, this idea of or this role of emotional intelligence, and how it plays a role in systems thinking and in coaching. And so emotional intelligence is huge in systems thinking leaders who lack self awareness often misinterpret the challenges that they're facing and misinterpret or react impulsively instead of strategically. And so empathy is also critical. Systems aren't just about processes, right? They're about people. They're about understanding stakeholders, motivations. They're about understanding the fears, the incentives you know that help leaders. And also navigate these complex systems a little bit more effectively.
Erica D'Eramo 15:04
Yeah, it's funny, I have a lot of folks who will say, like, I'm I'm an engineer by background, I don't do like, feelings or emotion or or they'll come up to a problem and they'll say, well, but this is the correct solution, right? It was like, okay, yes, it you may be correct. That may be factually correct. And now what right like, and now what is most effective in this situation through perhaps we can sometimes, I find the lens of like diplomacy can be helpful. Like you might be correct here, but considering the other stakeholders, considering what the ultimate goal is, what will be most effective. And I think that that that emotional intelligence that you mentioned, the self management right putting sometimes I talk about the air gap between reaction and response. So you might have an emotional reaction to something. You might notice that you something elicits a reaction, sometimes even a physical reaction, and just giving yourself that air gap to then decide what your response will be, keeping in mind what outcome you want from the situation.
Erica D'Eramo 16:18
Yeah.
Dr. Luévanos 16:19
And I yeah, I know I brought up Peter Senge before, Peter Senge work, before earlier in the segment, but you know, like I tell them, you know, with the especially with considering the emotional intelligence aspect, it's about relationship, right? And Peter Senge says that a shared vision is not an idea. It's a force in people's hearts, and so it's about relationship building. And this reiterate, reiterates that connected systems thinking, you know, to leadership, your your or your connecting systems thinking to leadership, to culture and to motivation through that lens of relationship building. And so you've really have got to get this awareness to self awareness about yourself. And I often go through this with with leaders, and we talk about, well, what motivates you as leader? Who are you as a leader? By what do you operate? What gets you up in the morning? And then, how can you use that as a powerful platform to connect with others, not the not the actual organization itself, right? But how are these different pieces connected to each other where you can establish a shared vision that is like, like saying you says not just an idea, but it becomes something that is adopted into the hearts of the individuals within that organization.
Erica D'Eramo 17:55
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a really valuable reflection. I think that so often, especially when things are contentious, or people are there's tension within an organization being able to get really clear about, ultimately, where, where are we aligned in, where we're trying to head to right, like, if we can be aligned at least on the mission, then everything else is just a challenge of the how we might have different ideas about how we get there, and we can partner against the larger challenge of accomplishing the mission. And we're not necessarily butting up against each other. We're together on on a mission together. I think that that can be really helpful. But again, it's about understanding your ultimate why and the and the ultimate why of the other people that are on that mission with you, and it might be different. That's okay, right? It might be like, personal fulfillment. It might be some deeper impact for society. It might be financial stability, right? I just want the paycheck, but, like, at least if you understand what people what's bringing people to the table. Um, they can be so help, especially with, like, stakeholder engagement, understanding that's that's like negotiations, 101, right? It's about understanding what's important to the other people around you.
Dr. Luévanos 19:11
And especially you mentioned this earlier, and I think it's important. I think Donella Meadows is the one that said it like you can't predict everything, but you can prepare for the unexpected. But that's only possible if you're connected to the individuals on that level, if you are self aware and you're connected with the people. You know that go. That goes with Peter Sangay, is what I mentioned about piers saying gay again, it's a shared vision. It's in the hearts. It resides in the hearts of individuals. And I know this, you know, it sounds touchy feely, but again, you operate within an organization. It has a heartbeat, you know, it up. It responds to the market. It responds to the needs of those that demand the product or service that you're that you are pitching, that you're selling, that you're putting. Out there. And so I think Donella Meadows is right on the money when she says it, you know, you you can prepare for the unexpected, because in the world that we live in now, you really can't predict everything that's about to happen. And so if you, if you encourage flexibility and adaptability in your leadership, you can navigate these complex systems with a little more ease.
Erica D'Eramo 20:22
Yeah. I mean, that just makes me think too about even about strengths versus weaknesses and vulnerabilities versus opportunities. Like so, often, folks that come from a technical mindset will get caught up in mitigating for all of the potentialities, mitigating for all of the risk factors, when in reality, we know that what differentiates us, whether that's as a human, as an individual on your career path, or as an organization, it's what you're good at that you stand out. It's your strengths that are going to differentiate you in the workplace, in the marketplace, as a leader, and so getting understanding what could take you out right the and mitigating for the worst case, credible, most likely risk scenarios, certainly worthwhile, but you'll never mitigate for everything, right?
Dr. Luévanos 21:21
Yeah, no. And, I mean, and the technical is good, right? You need to know your craft. You need to continue to hone your craft. That's, that's certainly, that's certainly important. But again, you can't control systems or figure them out, but you can dance with them, right?
Erica D'Eramo 21:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and you are a dancer, right? That's right. We have that in common? Yeah, I guess I view it more as like to take this metaphor a bit further more as like a Tango or like a Kizomba, maybe even a salsa, you know, where you're really having to pay attention, and that feedback loop of what's happening between, you know what, what's happening and responding. So, yeah, tell, tell us a little well, I don't know. What do you what are your thoughts on that metaphor?
Dr. Luévanos 22:14
Well, again, you can, you can understand every technical aspect. You know, as I mentioned, whether it's an organization or a dance, you can understand every technical aspect of every, you know, dancing type or dancing category, but eventually what ends up happening is that it's, it's an artistic connectedness with all of the complexity of the system and understanding the heart of what that organization is trying to do. And so you know, you can have technical conversations day in day out, with colleagues in your in your organization. But again, it's about being self aware where you are at that moment, appreciating where you are at the moment. And then when you know a change in tempo is introduced, you can quickly adapt to it. You can quickly respond to it. You lead, and people will follow, as long as you can capture that heart and connect with that person and make sure that whatever shared vision that you have, you know on you know on the dance floor, that you can partner with that person, because you're that connected with those systems.
Erica D'Eramo 23:42
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, this is a theme that's coming up a lot lately, is, while you can't predict everything you'll know, and I think that this can help with feelings of anxiety sometimes, knowing that you have met every challenge that has come your way, you've met it one way or another, right? You've gotten through it, you will meet the challenge when it comes around. And what is important is being able to build those adaptability muscles, that awareness of the system, that self awareness, that enables you to be adaptable, that enables you to respond to changes, to the unexpected, versus being perfect in every way, or planning for every eventuality that you that's physically impossible, right? Like trusting that when the when the time comes, you know you will cross that bridge. And I've been, I've been singing the praises of Oliver Berkman's 4000 weeks lately. I think it really resonated for me. But he talks about that a lot, that you know what you'll cross that bridge when you get to it, but knowing that you know, just like dancing right, when somebody does something that you don't expect, you don't just stop on the dance floor and be like, Well, I didn't you know. I didn't think you were gonna leave me that way, or I didn't think you were gonna respond that way. You just go with it. You go with the flow. You modify. Let you adapt. You have fun. Yeah. So what else? What else should we be thinking about in terms of systems thinking?
Dr. Luévanos 25:09
I think there are three key strategies that I can offer. You know, folks that are, they're interested in this, you know, to break down these siloed approaches and foster a little bit more caliber, you know, collaboration. And the first is cross disciplinary projects, you know, encourage teams from different departments to collaborate. That's always going to be generative of new ideas, new approaches. And it's also going to foster interactions. And that, again, it's key to have that connectedness between teams, you know, and between departments, to look at issues, to look at challenges in a very different way. And then the second is leadership development, I would say, equip your people with skills beyond their expertise right now, the new thing is AI, you know how to, how to couple, you know, solutions minded or problem solving with AI technologies, I think, from a cross disciplinary standpoint and a leadership development standpoint, if you can get teams to think generatively and cross disciplinary, if I can say that, I think you'll improve the communication and the team building and so and then the last, lastly is, you know, shift from those rigid disciplines, from those rigid, siloed approaches, to a more integrated learning. You know, whenever you have whenever you have training, that would be my third and last recommendation to reflect on real world problem solving within those trainings, as opposed to these kind of detached training models, and demand that from your your your your trainers, don't waste your money, you know, on these kind of out of the box approaches. You have to challenge the folks that come into your organization to think on your terms, to accommodate and to tailor trainings, you know, for your organization. I just heard a story just recently about a trainer that came in and had some out of the box or not out of the box, but boxed, I should say, box training model, and completely lost three fourths of the group. And I thought, well, let me think about this for a second. You just paid someone to come train you, and then you spent money because it was during that work day you spent money, hourly money, salaried money, whatever you want to whoever was in there to listen to this person tell you how to do your job better. And this information that you covered wasn't even relatable, and you couldn't even take back, not even half, not even, I think, not even a quarter of what they were trying to convey to you back into your real world of challenges that you're facing. So like I said, don't waste your money. Have make sure that it is centered on the organizational experience and even on the individual experience. And if you're going to use these cross disciplinary approaches, make sure that the folks that are coming into your organization understand what you're doing before they even step foot. Don't waste your money, don't waste your time, and be sure that people that come in, that are coming to you again, are connected with the work that you are doing.
Erica D'Eramo 29:03
You know, I do love you highlighting that because so often, I mean, at Two Piers, we offer coaching and consulting, and I actually you would think, well, it's my time. I'm gonna charge it the same way. I charge a lot more for the consulting than I do for the coaching, because, ironically, I want to incentivize the coaching element, or at least open facilitation, because I think it's so much more effective for organizations to have somebody come in and ask a lot of questions and tap in, which is really a coaching model. And I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place for the consultant role of doing a baseline assessment, giving best practices, helping to devise a strategy, for sure, but it's particularly effective when it's combined with leadership coaching, so that you're tackling the root causes of things that you're really getting under that and equipping people with the skills. To implement these strategies going forward, and it doesn't just sit on a shelf somewhere and that you're really under uncovering what the true unique situation in context is for that organization. So yeah, like facilitation and coaching, I chart like we charge less for that, because I want to incentivize it, because I think it's so much more effective. And yes, there again, there is a time and a place for us to create a work product and and provide that to the client. But when done alone, I think you end up with this, like, you know, out of the box, off the shelf type of structure that's just not going to be custom tailored, so and not, not going to be from a systems design approach. Yes, to bring it full circle.
Dr. Luévanos 30:48
For sure.
Erica D'Eramo 30:49
Yeah. So what? Um, what are your What are your closing thoughts? To wrap up today's conversation.
Dr. Luévanos 30:58
Um, I think, just to kind of offer a tease for those that are listening or watching, I think the there has to be a mindset, a mindset shift that that that has to take place as you become A, you know, just a better leader or a problem solver, and I think that's moving from knowing to learning. The best leaders aren't the ones with all the answers. They're the ones who ask the best questions and keep learning.
Erica D'Eramo 31:35
Yeah, right, and asking the questions about the larger systems, right? The larger why the not just getting into the the immediate fix? Yes. Well, thank you, Anthony, Dr. Luevanos, I really appreciate your insights and having you join us again. Like I said, you're, you know, our favorite, I think most, most tenured guest, so great to have another episode in the books with you. And for anyone listening that would love a summary of this, you can find that on our website along with the transcript, if you prefer to read it or look through the transcript, and we appreciate having you on and we look forward to our listeners joining us for the next episode.
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How Systems Thinking Transforms Leadership
A Conversation with Dr. Anthony Luévanos on the Two Piers Podcast
On this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo is joined by Dr. Anthony Luévanos for a deep dive into systems thinking—what it is, why it matters, and how it can transform leadership, coaching, and organizational effectiveness. Drawing from his background in education, leadership development, and organizational systems, Dr. Luévanos brings a grounded and insightful perspective on leading in complexity.
What Is Systems Thinking?
At its core, systems thinking is about understanding how different elements of a system interact—often in ways that aren’t linear or immediately visible. Dr. Luévanos describes it as moving beyond surface-level problem-solving to identify the underlying structures, patterns, and feedback loops that shape outcomes over time.
“In leadership,” he explains, “this means moving beyond that linear problem solving model where you address symptoms towards tackling root causes by looking at the bigger picture.”
His shift from school administration to broader organizational development was motivated by this very idea: that to lead effectively, you need to understand the full context in which decisions are made and results are produced.
Where Systems Thinking Shows Up
Erica and Anthony explore how systems thinking can be applied across industries—from engineering and education to business and healthcare. Erica reflects on her engineering background and the shared emphasis on root-cause analysis and big-picture problem-solving.
Anthony highlights Toyota’s lean manufacturing model as a practical example of systems thinking in action. He also shares his experience using systems thinking to drive change in education—focusing not just on outcomes, but on the dynamics and structures that produce them.
Coaching as a Systems-Based Practice
The conversation turns toward coaching and how it supports leaders in adopting a systems lens. Anthony describes coaching as a vehicle for expanding perspective—helping leaders recognize interconnections they may have overlooked.
Erica echoes this, noting that effective coaching isn’t about offering answers, but about asking the kinds of questions that reveal deeper truths and spark insight.
Anthony introduces tools like causal loop diagrams and mind maps as techniques to help leaders visualize complexity and identify points of leverage within their systems.
Emotional Intelligence and the Human Side of Systems
Systems thinking isn’t just about processes—it’s also about people. Anthony emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence in navigating complex systems, especially for leaders who need to build trust, communicate effectively, and engage with diverse stakeholders.
Drawing on Peter Senge’s work, the discussion highlights the power of shared vision and the need to understand not only stakeholders’ goals, but also their motivations, fears, and values.
Erica and Anthony acknowledge that in technical environments, these “soft” skills are often undervalued—but in reality, they’re critical to sustainable leadership and systems change.
Flexibility, Adaptability, and the Dance of Leadership
One of the episode’s most memorable metaphors is the idea of leadership as a dance. Erica and Anthony discuss how leaders must be attuned to changes in tempo, able to adjust in real time, and grounded enough to respond to the unexpected.
Anthony references Donella Meadows’ concept of preparing for the unpredictable—not by trying to control every variable, but by building the internal capacity to respond with awareness and agility.
The key, they agree, is cultivating self-awareness, staying connected to others, and practicing flexibility in the face of complexity.
Reframing Leadership as a Learning Practice
As the conversation draws to a close, Erica and Anthony reflect on a crucial mindset shift: moving from a place of knowing to a place of learning. The most effective leaders, they agree, aren’t the ones with all the answers—they’re the ones asking the best questions.
“The best leaders aren't the ones with all the answers,” Anthony says. “They're the ones who ask the best questions and keep learning.”
Erica wraps up the episode by thanking Anthony for his thoughtful insights and inviting listeners to reflect on how systems thinking might show up in their own leadership practice.
Listen to the Full Conversation
You can listen to the full episode featuring Dr. Anthony Luévanos on the Two Piers Podcast. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and stay tuned for more conversations that challenge conventional thinking and expand the way we lead.