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Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello and welcome to the two piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica Dremo, and today we're diving deep into the world of adaptive leadership with Dr Anthony Luevanos, a two piers coach and a recurring guest on the podcast. He's also an expert in leadership development and organizational strategy. So last time he was on the podcast, we spoke about systems thinking, including complexity frameworks and structures in leadership. But what happens when leaders face real time challenges that no system can fully account for? Today, we'll unpack what it truly means to be an adaptive leader, why traditional models fall short, and how you can develop these skills in your own leadership practice.
Erica D'Eramo 0:58
Hello, Anthony, thanks for coming back on the podcast.
Dr. Luévanos 1:01
Hey, how's it going? Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo 1:05
Yeah. So for those who are maybe new to the podcast and don't know who you are or your background, who is Dr. Luevanos, give us a little bit of a little bit of a bio.
Dr. Luévanos 1:20
Well, I grew up, I guess, in my adult career, in education, and so I started off as a K 12 teacher, and then moved into school, school administration, and then higher education, school administration or higher education, sorry, and have kind of just stayed here in this spot, doing research, partnering with schools and generally just seeing how organizations behave and how leadership's leaders develop, I should say, and it's been a great experience. I've I've seen many schools across the country manage their organizations in different ways, unique ways, and diverse school leaders handle themselves, handle the district, or manage the district, or lead the district in various ways, using different models. Some, some great, really, but then some, you know, leaving me with, I can't believe the organization is still working, and so it just Yeah. I mean, it brought up a lot, you know, a lot of things that I had to reflect on over the course, you know, of a decade and in my own work. And again, whenever I see organizations or other leaders, I'm not I'm not too quick to criticize them, but look at myself and see kind of the challenges that I had faced, and look at some of the mistakes that I had made as a leader, and really try to hone in on how to help others not make the same mistakes, and then also taking into consideration just the the vast observations that I've been able to or had the privilege of seeing over the last decade, two decades?
Erica D'Eramo 3:27
Yeah, I think you and I have such different backgrounds and strengths that we bring to bear, and we have a commonality probably, around curiosity, right? Like we always want to know what's really going on here, what's at the root of this issue or challenge or phenomenon that we're seeing. And so me coming up through like engineering and in the field, and very hands on, and you coming up through the academia in a variety of senses, right? Like, actually, as a practitioner within academia, as a member of academia, you know, like, truly an academic. I mean, I'm almost scared to ask at this point, how many degrees do you have? Have you lost track?
Dr. Luévanos 4:16
No, that's the pain. Yeah, the pain is too great to have lost track. But, yeah, no, I, you know, I have just kind of fallen in love with education and just again, like you said, curiosity, and it's kind of led me into these places where I get to partner with other people, and, you know, in teams. And you know, whether it's research or just, you know, thought, you know, thought partners, and how this stuff works out, you know, like, what, what? What does leadership mean, and how do organizations actually function? And, like, you know, as I said, before you know, the diversity of what's out there, it's crazy. Easy. And, you know, sometimes we get, we get so focused in on, on the work, that we forget our the developmental aspect that that it takes in these situations. So...
Erica D'Eramo 5:15
hmm, thank you skirted the question three, right? I mean, like, you have like, multiple PhDs. I'm just bragging on you because I think it's, like, so impressive. Your dedication to continuous, lifelong learning. I think every time we talk, you're like, Oh, I'm just defending another i don't know i What do they call it? Dissertations? Or,
Dr. Luévanos 5:38
yeah, yeah. It's there a lot of fun. You should try it.
Erica D'Eramo 5:45
I, you know, I got my major emergency management certification out of my system with, like, bombs going off, not bomb, you know, explosions going off and all that. I think that's good enough. That's enough. That's enough. Proving, proving my metal.
Dr. Luévanos 6:00
I love it.
Erica D'Eramo 6:01
A dissertation defense, I think sounds a little scarier to me. Give me a medic panicking any day of the week, and I can handle that, but give me some stern academic grilling me about my thesis, and I don't know, I kid, I kid. So okay, that's not what you're here to talk about, though you're not bragging on yourself. That's what I'm here to do, to do it for you, but we are here to talk about adaptive leadership and resilience. So how, how do you define resilience in the context of leadership?
Dr. Luévanos 6:39
Well, I would say, you know, first off, you know, just resilience is, is just adaptability, right? I mean the ability to adapt to various situations sometimes, you know, in the face of within the organization, adversity, then externally, outside of the organization, threats you know to the organizations, whether real or perceived, you know. And this, again, it cuts across organizational types. And you know, whether there's you know, if you're in law enforcement or in significant areas of tragedy, resilience definitely is looks a little different because it just deals with different types of external forces that pose significant threats. And so in the context of leadership, it goes beyond simply just toughing it out. It encompasses like just a broad skill set and a behavior approach so that leaders not only recover from the difficulties, the trauma, the tragedies, but also are able to adapt and grow from those situations, and also, again, they're leaders, so they have to inspire their teams through, um, times of uncertainty.
Erica D'Eramo 8:08
Yeah, I think, I mean, this is a topic that folks who have been following two piers for a while know, I get on my soapbox, right? Like I I could talk for hours about the concept of resilience, mostly because I feel like it is so often misused or misglamorized. And so even the engineer in me gets kind of like it's sort of a pet peeve for the engineer in me, because in engineering, in material science, you'll talk about toughness, right? You talk about like you can measure a material's toughness, and that is defined as, like, how much energy can that material absorb, right? So, like, you hit it with something really heavy, and you can see how much it absorbs without, maybe, like, cracking or disintegrating. Um, but that is very different than resilience in material silence, which is how things which you know, kind of how you mentioned, it's transversing past the the stressor, past the force, and it's a before and after. So like something that's elastic, that bounces back, is resilient. But if you hit a an aluminum can with a hammer, and you're like, oh, look, it didn't disintegrate. It's resilient. No, it's not. It's crushed. It's unusable. You can't use it anymore. It's damaged, like it still exists, but it just endured a massive like impact, and it didn't bounce back. So I think that, like you, you bringing this to bear. I think is so interesting, because organizations, also, we talk about, like, resilient individuals, but we're looking at it here in terms of an organization. So, all right, I got on my like soapbox, right there. But What? What? How do you think when you in your work that you do and the research that you've read, what are some of the misunderstandings that you come across?
Dr. Luévanos 10:08
Yeah, you know that that can example, you know the aluminum can and the hammer example is a great segue into this, because oftentimes we think that once you've reached a particular point, you know, in your career or the organization has reached, you know, a certain threshold, that it can be misconstrued, that they are resilient, um, to certain, you know, external forces. But the reality is that organizations and the leaders that are in charge of them, they they have to deal with internal and external forces, right? And so, you know, you get hit with a hammer, you know, you know, it could be any number of external forces that are at play, right? And you know, you can probably illuminate our audience. You know, on quite a few external forces as it regards your field of expertise, but a lot of folks, a lot of listeners out there will will identify with a lot of these external forces, but more often, as we kind of, you know, go into our individual industries, they're not The external forces or stressors, aren't, you know, they become dissimilar at some point because of industry, but the similarity is the internal structure, or the internal Yeah, the internal structures, the psychology, the internal stressors that a leader has to deal with on a daily basis, and depending on the, you know, the the stress. It's it, it requires an adaptability that is, you know, sometimes on the go, and we don't give ourselves a time to to develop that we want to rush into it. But again, you know, you know, a leader has to be adaptable and flexible. They have to develop their emotional intelligence. They have to be decisive under pressure. And then they also have to have that growth mindset, you know. And so this, you know, these, these, these characteristics, they they're not exhaustive. But again, these are some of the characteristics that oftentimes leaders overlook because they want to get through the situation. And it's unfortunate because, you know, as C.S. Lewis is, you know, one of C.S. Lewis's texts, what would explain is that giving into the pain is the important part, surrendering to the pain to learn what the tragedy will bring in terms of growth and and you've, you've got to feel it's a lot of, a lot of the leaders, leaders that I train, you know, they go, they read a text, you know, and it's wonderful. There's a bunch of studies that give you all kinds of case studies and examples, you know, you know. And we're, you know, we're pointing, we can point to it in the text and see it. But really, the missing link, the missing part, is actually experiencing, like, the emotions your skin, yeah, the the forces inside of you, or just that have that gut feeling like something's not right, or, you know, or this is great, but you know, like I've been here before, something's around the corner. What do I need to do to prepare myself and the organization for what's about to come? Those often are missed in the text, and you can't really, you can't very well reproduce them in a traditional classroom setting, or with the traditional classroom experience, whether it's at the K 12 level or at the high school level, or even in a training center. So yeah, that's it's very important to see that and the limitations of of what education, I guess, would present.
Erica D'Eramo 14:24
I Oh, there's so much that you said that is so interesting to me. Like even in that, in that metaphor, analogy that we were talking about with the soda can, it's like shaking it up, right? And like having that it's that friction on the inside. It's the the gas coming out of solution, the building pressure, all of that that causes, maybe an explosion, maybe a rupture, a loss of containment. So the the internal forces are so interesting. And you're somebody asked me today, you know, so when you do coaching or consulting, are you mostly working? On communication skills. I was like, I mean, yes, and no, sure, communication is a big part, but communication, in and of itself, isn't really what I would say. Communication is awesome, often like a symptom or a medium, but it's not in and of itself. The issue usually with leaders, the big thing I'm working on, especially if we're working on culture, is first self awareness. That's the first key thing, right? Like, so when you were saying, Oh, I don't want to feel that, that like icky feel I want to move away from it, right? So we just immediately move away, like the animals that we are, instead of looking at it, feeling it, acknowledging it, embracing it like what is this feeling? What is this discomfort, bringing curiosity to it? And then it's the self management, right of, okay, now, what do I actually want to do with this, rather than just, let's just get this over with. Let's rush through it. Let's stick some band aids on it. That that cultural breach that may have happened, that that, oh, upset, that busted up trust in the organization, like it's so quick for leaders to just paper over it and move on and be done with it, but like it sits there right if it's not been acknowledged, if we don't have the mature, the leadership maturity, to truly hold it up, feel it, investigate it, find out what's going on with ourselves internally, and then what's going on with our organization there,
Dr. Luévanos 16:30
You know. And I love, I love that you just said, what? How? What you said just now, because it just, it just goes to show you. And you know, like, you know, the audience can see this if you, you know, if, if you would rewind it and listen to this. You know, at the very beginning, you thought of the can as full. I thought of the can is empty.
Erica D'Eramo 16:50
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Luévanos 16:53
Dealing with, like I said, these differing perspectives are also critical to to for leaders to understand. And what came to mind is, you know the issue, you know, like Gen you know gendered leadership and females, and how that can be very different, and why leaders need to be aware of resilience factors within the organization, and how the organization can actually manage and adapt and be flexible. But again, from a leader's perspective, that may look one way, but from your organization that could involve completely different dynamics. And you know, women in male dominated workplaces often report experiencing higher levels of stress compared to women in more gender balanced environments, you know, like you know, for instance, social isolation, or isolation or lack of support discrimination, you know, a lot of time in, you know, in higher ed, we always talk about the imposter syndrome, you Know, you know, females and female leaders, especially will experience stressors, external, internal stressors very differently from their male counterparts. And so, you know, it's, it's critically important, especially if you're a leader of leaders, to highlight that and to make sure that you train your employees or your organization on that different dynamic, because, again, hammer hitting an empty can versus hammer hitting a full can. Hey, completely different and possibly completely different outcomes if you're if you're not self aware and if you're not organizationally aware. So love that.
Erica D'Eramo 18:39
Yeah. I mean, there was a book written called, I think it's just called Burnout. It's written by a pair of sisters, and they talk about this a lot, sort of how things manifest differently for men and women. Or, you know, across gender there are, there are definitely differences in how folks, whether from socialization or just how we're wired, I don't really know. But like the the opportunities for us to close our stress cycle can be quite different, especially in terms of what's societally allowed in the workplace. You know, I remember working offshore where men could blow off steam by like raising their voice or, I mean, even in some cases right, like throwing a chair. I've shared that example, and women had a different set of options that were available, a much narrower set of options that were available to sort of let off that steam, close the stress cycle, and tell their nervous system that we're safe now, and you mentioned the isolation some I was speaking with a group of people who work in pretty extreme remote environments recently, and they were talking about how it can be so especially when people live and work together, it can be so tricky to avoid clicks. and one member of the group mentioned, you know, it sounds she said, This might sound crazy, but if you feel isolated, it's really hard to feel safe, even physically safe. And she said that as if it was something kind of strange, and I realized like, Oh, if you're talking to a lay person who's maybe never sat alone at the lunch table in a place where they are about to sleep in a cabin, sure, maybe that sounds strange, that like you're you fear for your physical safety because nobody wanted to talk to you that day. But it's really true, like you are very vulnerable, and you're getting messages from the organization that you are not part of the in group, that you will not be protected as part of the in group, then it makes sense that you would fear for your physical safety, and like how much, how much mental energy is going towards that sort of hyper vigilance watching your back instead of going into your job or your role, whether you're a leader or you're an individual contributor. So I think it's great you mentioned that if you're a leader of individuals, if you're a leader of leaders, to like, be on the lookout for who's in the in group and who's not, and how they might be they might have different factors that are contributing to the likelihood of a resilient outcome. And I use that terminology intentionally, because I I'm guessing you're going to talk about resilience, is it so is resilience? This is my question. Is resilience a and it's a trick question, because I already know the answer, yes. Um, is resilience a something that you get to decide? Like, do I get to decide I will be resilient?
Erica D'Eramo 21:57
That it is, yeah, it's a, it's, it's like, it's a partnership, really, especially when you're dealing with organizations, right? You can tell yourself that you need to adapt. You can say, you know, today, I'm, you know, like, if I'm faced with a particular situation, you can think ahead of time and and oftentimes, the most dynamic leaders do think about the road ahead and what kind of challenges they'll face. But again, that's that's self management, right? And you know, going back to the to the district, the example that you gave in terms of the isolation you know you got, you have to consider self isolation versus organizational isolation. So some folks are engineered that way, or grow up that way, or develop that way, where they self isolate when things are tough, but they also, on top of that may experience organizational isolation or team isolation, where they're isolated to a degree from their team, and unknowingly from their team. They're you know they're isolated. You know whether, whether it's intentional or unintentional, those things do occur. But again, that resilience developing resilience, that that's intentional work, and that's not running away from a situation, but embracing it, embracing the embracing, as I mentioned earlier, embracing the pain, embracing the situation, embracing the tragedy, embracing the trauma. Again, depending on your industry and you know, partnering with those within the organization to, you know, sort of cast a vision for how you're going to deal with certain situations. And so there are practices, you know, practical and tactical things that you can do, but, you know there are, but there are some pitfalls. There are some common mistakes that often leaders overlook or commit that sometimes tank situation, and the leader, as well as the organization, doesn't learn from the particular event or situation, and they wind up repeating certain certain behaviors, or certain mindsets, or they have a fixed mindset, and they're just, well, this is the way we dealt with it the last time, well, and we didn't incur, you know, very much damage, or nothing really happened. So we'll just deal with it the same way. And I mean, you know, it's it. It's noted in lots of the business, you know, leadership literature, you know, like Ford Motor Company and, you know, and other industries where you've got to adapt to your market. You've got to adapt to the event. And again, this cuts across industries. And resilience is an incredibly, incredible. Really important skill to develop, and it's needed across, I'd say most industries, if not all industries, because most industries will experience some kind of external or internal forces, you know, a pressure where it will require you to adapt, to be flexible, and, you know, and all those other characteristics in between.
Erica D'Eramo 25:21
Yeah, I think a lot about resilience in terms of, like going to the gym and what leads to resilience from in your physical body, right? It's not just lift as much weight as possible that might add some strength. It might also incur injury. So truly building resilience in your body is probably like working on tiny stabilizer muscles, making sure that you're stretching, making sure that you're hydrating, right, you're like, it's all of these probably working with a partner, right? Having somebody spot you is more likely to like, lead to good form and resilient outcomes. So it's all of these factors that contribute. That's why I love your language around like these contributors to resilience, because you're sort of like voting with all of these other activities or all of these other behaviors for whether you're setting yourself up to be able to bounce back once the force comes acts on you and then is alleviated afterwards. Or you end up with an injury, right? Or you like, push it too far, or you don't listen to your body, or you don't read the signals, and you end up with the alternative. And you can be tough and you can endure a lot, but that doesn't make it that in and of itself, like that decision to continue to endure or push through does not define a resilient outcome. A resilient outcome, right? It's like, are you worse off before now than you were before? If so, the answer is not resilient, like not a resilient outcome, not that you're not a resilient person, but like the outcome here in this situation was an a resilient one.
Dr. Luévanos 27:05
I mean, and people can find them, you know. Can find examples about of this. You know, what often comes to mind is, you know Victor Frankel's work, you know, as he survived Holocaust, and identify, you know, he was, he had observed. If you know, the audience doesn't know about Viktor Frankl, you know, look him up, read his stuff. That's, that's a really great example of resilience and how it plays out. You know, where he's, you know, he's saying even the people that you would think would have survived like the strongest, the, you know, the folks that were the that you thought look physically in the best shape, were the first ones to go. And it was that they didn't take the work, the intentional work that it that you needed to in order to develop resilience. And there's other there are other things I think I'm just, I'm butchering Victor Frankel's worked, you know, for this resilience piece. But there's a lot there as it regards resilience. And then you've got the Stockdale Paradox, you know, where you know you're the ability to face brutal facts, you know, of your current reality, without losing that unwavering faith that you're that you'll ultimately prevail in the end. I mean, accept the reality. And this is why I said at the outset, you know, surrender to the pain. You know. Observe the pain where, where's the where your pain points as an organization, you know, and start to start to look at how that you can adapt, where you can be flexible. And if some of you, let me back up, some of you don't know about the Stockdale Paradox. You know, look it up. It's about the how Stockdale observed the prisoners who were, you know, not pessimist, but the overall missed optimum, overly optimistic ones that had unrealistic deadlines for rescue. You know, we'll be out by Christmas. You can read that, read that. But again, it was those that face that were brutally honest about the reality of their situation,
Erica D'Eramo 29:06
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 29:06
That survived and that steadfast belief and the ultimate outcome, you know, that deep conviction, again, leaders that have been through it, you know, especially you know, those out there that have experienced or gone through, You know, the covid era, you know, and you were thinking, wow, I don't you know. I have no idea if we're going to make it, but that managing that uncertainty with resolve and a vision and staying focused and understanding your organizations and the individuals that comprise the organization, and again, giving into the pain and adapting and being flexible, key, key qualities to make your way through it, learn from it and develop a better response system. And I love that you brought up the, you know, the physical development dynamic. You know, trainers out there, you know, folks at special. Lies and physical development. You know that. You already know that the you know, if you have a workout and you do the repetitive emotion, you know, depending on your goal, right, the better emotion to get to that, to that outcome. You know, it's not, it's not formal Lake, you know, it's not one of those things where you just, here's a list of exercises, do these, and you'll get to your goal. I mean, we're talking about adapting diet, you know, the, you know, like the internal stuff, and then the external, yeah, I mean, and then what your, you know, what your vision is for your own body. And, you know, is it weight loss? Is it, you know, weight gain, or is it muscle development? Is it, you know, strength, you know, increase in all of those are different. Again, dynamics, when we talk about physical development and organizations, individuals, in terms of, you know, developing this resilience key, they go through much the same thing. It's not relate, but it's, it is partly about dealing with the brutal reality of where you are, and then, like I said, giving into the pain and then adapting and finding where you're flexible, uh, again, emphasizing your vision. If you're leading an organization, you know, take them with you, um, you know, like I said, I mentioned earlier. You know, leaders often make these mistakes. You know, these mistakes they feel, you know, feel pressured to hear strong and invulnerable. You know, that's not that. That's not good. You know, because you're, you're thinking that if you stay strong and invulnerable, it'll inspire with, you know, confidence in your team. And then what, what ends up really happening inside internally is they end up suppressing your emotions and isolating yourself, you know, creating this facade of perfection that will eventually just damage the trust between you and the organization, it makes it difficult to connect with your team on a genuine level, and so you know, don't make that mistake. Embrace the vulnerability as a strength. Recognize that your true strengths lies in acknowledging your flaws and emitting when you don't have all the answers. Because oftentimes you know, when you're in an organization, you're you're, you're the people that you hired. You hire them for a reason. You know, if your hiring practices are, you know, tight. You hire them for a reason. Rely on the people around you. Have that supportive community. It's okay to rely on other folks.
Erica D'Eramo 32:35
Yeah, we literally just wrote a blog series on like, how to ask for help, how to rely on other people. Because I think one of the other pieces of the research around resilience and resilient outcomes is really that it is a group effort, even for individuals, often that tie to community and individuals is a big piece that in that correlates highly to whether you will have a resilient outcome. And the piece around when I hear you say, like embracing the pain or like giving into the pain, I'm not interpreting that as like a total surrender, like probably surrender, in a way, in terms of acknowledging your control, like the the extent of your control, but more so not like giving up, but rather, in coaching, a lot of times we talk about integration, right? Instead of avoidance, it's an integration. And even in in the therapeutic realm, where people are working through trauma, they're not looking to like move past it or get to a world where the trauma didn't happen. It's about like integrating that into our identities, integrating it into our lived experience, into who we are. So that integrating piece is what I hear when it's like embracing it and bringing it in and processing it, like moving moving through it and with it. But the Victor Frankel stuff is Yes. big thumbs up on reading about Viktor Frankl, and I remember one of the anecdotes. I think it was from Man's Search for Meaning. It might have been from Yes to Life, but where he talks about like the one person who thought for sure they were going to get released on some certain day, like he had this vision that they were going to get released on March 31 or something, right and then, and he was so hopeful, so hopeful, so hopeful, March 31 came. He didn't get released, and he died, like, literally, the next day, probably, I mean, in a way, I guess maybe he was released, but it was, I think, Victor Frankel's view was that when he lost that one piece of hope, it all crumbled around him, because it was like this, you know, it was all hanging on that one piece. And then in the reverse, he talks about, you know, they could tell who was about to give up hope, because they would, like people would hoard their cigarettes and hold them because they were worth more as kind of monetary trade. And if you saw somebody smoking their cigarette, that meant they were probably going to be gone the next day because they had just they had given up. They were like, I might as well smoke this last cigarette. So it's almost this balance of like, not toxic positivity, not total lack of hope, but somewhere in between where it's like the pragmatism, the realism, the being present and aware. And it was Margaret Atwood who spoke, and somebody asked her, like, how do you maintain hope? And she said, Well, if I didn't maintain she was like, I don't really see an option, because if I didn't have hope, then I wouldn't do anything. I would just lay down and give up. And so if I'm gonna do something, if I'm just gonna even show up the next day and, like, eat breakfast, that requires hope, right? Like, and if I'm gonna fight, that requires hope. So I don't know, there's this, like, balance of hopeful realism.
Dr. Luévanos 36:01
Yeah, and I mean, and these are, these are lessons that you can apply again, you know, and you know, we're in this podcast where, you know, we all, we really primarily focus on the professional aspects, but again, when you're experiencing trauma on a personal level and your personal relationships, you know, when you the loss of a spouse or the loss of a loved one, or anything like that. I mean, resilience is key. And you know, gathering around, you know the people that have loss, you know that have experienced loss, is incredibly important, and also for you, if you experience loss, mean that you know there are a lot of resources out there. But again, it's, it transcends, you know, these, the skill transcends industries, the professional, the professional to the personal, personal to the professional. And it's, it's important to develop, to develop the skill set, because it's so useful. And the that that key, that key piece, there was just an article today about, you know, how folks live. You know longer, and you know, it was incredibly funny, because I was looking at it and I thought, wait a minute, that's so interesting, because they talk about, you know, socialization as one of the key aspects of living longer, being sociable. And so communication is key. So again, this goes back to when we're talking about, you know this, you know, like gender and females and organizations, and how self isolation, self isolation and or or intentional team isolation of you, whether it's, you know, through passive or active behaviors of you know, males and on the team, or even other females. Sometimes, I mean, that happens too. Don't make the mistake, you know, like, if don't, don't, don't, don't fail to articulate your vision for what you expect in your organization and engage with your your folks, especially those that aren't used to organizational norms. Make that a key developmental aspect, you know, and communicate effectively and frequently. You know that two way communication is essential. I always, whenever I was, you know, in charge of an organization, I'd always say the open door policy. And I know some folks criticize that. You know the open door policy, but two way communication is the crux of it, an environment where your employees feel comfortable asking you questions, sharing concerns, providing feedback without judgment or without fear of judgment, I should say, and then actively listening. You know, you don't know how important it is, folks, when you are not present in a conversation, people feel it. They see it. They see it in your body language. They see it in your eyes. They see it in your in your stance. They see it. And just do yourself a favor. You know, try practicing active engagement, where you're engaging with the reality of what you're facing. And this is why, this is why I said, um, deal with the brutal reality of what you're dealing with in your organization. As an organization, be actively engaged in the situation if you're experiencing this as an organization. Inform, inform, inform, communicate, and then you execute your vision, execute this, you know, execute what you need to in order to adapt and find ways to be flexible, because that's going to differentiate you, or be the difference maker between your organization. As a successful organization and others that won't.
Erica D'Eramo 40:04
Yeah, yep, denial. It's not just a river also takes down companies and individuals. Yes, yeah, being present. Um, I think, Oh, it was. There's a book I recently read called Unwinding Anxiety, and it i In theory, it's about in dealing with anxiety, but really it's about being more aware of our triggers and our reactions and our patterns and our habits. And part of that is about like being fully present. And it was a fascinating read, just like, from a coaching perspective, about building habits, but being present, noting the feelings that are happening. And the other book that you made me think of was Humble Inquiry by Edgar Schein, which I will always recommend about being, you know, like really active listening is not about, like, getting the thing ready that you're about to say it is true, which, in coaching is our big challenge, right? It's like, we have to have the perfect question. And so as a coach, that's a big thing that we work on. Is Not, not trying to think about, like, oh, I have the perfect question. I'm going to ask this per this client. But what is truly happening? How is their body shifting? What is the feeling like? Yes, words are coming out of their mouth, but what is the whole package here and truly being present and just trusting that? Like, you don't need to be the smartest person in the room. You don't need to have the perfect response. You don't need to have the perfect question like, just, just absorb and listen and be present. So, yeah, yeah, you really helped.
Dr. Luévanos 41:40
Yeah, that's awesome that you said that because, I mean, I respect Edgar Schein and his his work and and one of the things that come to mind, and I think it's probably important for the audience to hear this, because so often we talk, we get on these podcasts, and, you know, sometimes we just talk, not from experience, but look, I went through, I went through burnout. You know, when we're talking about resilience and, you know, kind of, we kind of lose track of, like, Okay, well, dealing with this, I'm dealing with this. We're adapting. We're flexible, but there's a critical moment sometimes where your your resilience, has crossed over into burnout and denial. I was so glad that you, you brought that denial up. You know, sometimes burnout, I mean, it happened to me and I didn't realize. I didn't realize I was burnt out. I had no idea. And oftentimes it just kind of sneaks up on you, um, you know, sleep patterns change. Your eating habits changed. I remember, I weigh 185 pounds, and when burn, when burnout hit, I slammed down to 135 I couldn't believe I thought it was just, I thought it was just what, you know, I changed my workout routine, or, you know, I was eating healthier, you know, like, but 135 is not healthy for my height, yeah. And so, you know, you know, and I didn't recognize these stressors. And it's so funny, because, you know others would see this, you know, and you know, and my wife in particular. You know my low motivation. You know my my you know, blaming other people for my mistakes, sometimes even my you know my own spouse and I. You know my irritability, my frustration. You know, all of those things, you know. And then again, I mean, because again, this could happen with you and your professional life, and it could just transfer over into your personal life, where you're distancing yourself from family and friends. You know, in the professional is distancing yourself from colleagues, self isolate, self isolation, you know. And then if you're critical of them, of course, you're going to have team myself, you know, Team teams that are isolating you, like, I don't think you want to work with us. But again, it's, it's learning from reflecting from these mistakes, and dealing with them again, dealing with the reality of what is, as opposed to denying what you you know, what you're going through is incredibly crucial, not just for an individual, but for an organization. You know, don't sugarcoat it, don't make it sound better than what it really is, because then what ends up happening is that you deny you deny the organization the opportunity to grow, and you want to make sure you hit all your growth measures. They you know they may be, they may be in flux at the moment, but you can set metrics. So you can still set metrics as you adapt in your and you flex your you know, your skill set, your people, your financial resources. And from there, then you can begin to say, Okay, we're here. That's real, folks. Let's see what we can do together as a team to respond to it, you know, you know, then also reminding yourself and your team, you know, don't neglect self. You know you're to take. Care of yourself, right? You know, we we have to take care of ourselves, take care of your team, or mind your team, to take care of themselves, and then move forward, you know, as a team, and from that place of self awareness and self knowledge, and then you can begin to see the benefits of resilience in your organization and as in your leadership,
Erica D'Eramo 45:24
Yeah, yes. Way to take us in for a solid landing there. What? What do you think the final closing thoughts are for our listeners? What should there, if they take one thing away today? What should that be?
Dr. Luévanos 45:42
Resilience is an important aspect of any person's personal development and professional development as a leader. It's critical. It's a critical aspect to develop for yourself as a leader, for your 10, for your leadership tenure, and also a critical skill to develop in your team.
Erica D'Eramo 46:06
Yeah, and if folks wanted to maybe work with you or reach out to you, how should they do that?
Dr. Luévanos 46:19
Oh, gosh, yes. anthony@twopiersconsulting.com. You can reach out to me there. You can also look at, send me an email at, or send me an email at anthony@twopiersconsulting.com or you can look me up over at the University of Oklahoma, there's a little spot that I have if you're ever curious or just want to ask some questions about the issue, I'd sure love to help you develop, not only as a as a leader, but help your organization as well.
Erica D'Eramo 46:56
Yeah, and you're on LinkedIn also, and I think, oh, and we've got you on the Two Piers website for sure, so you can even book a call with Anthony through there, so I'm pretty sure, yeah, or at least reach out to him that way. So and for our listeners, there is a summary of this episode with links on the website along with a full transcript if that is of interest, and we'll have links in the show notes as well. So thank you again, Anthony for coming on and having this great conversation about one of my favorite topics of resilience. I really appreciate all of your insight and research.
Dr. Luévanos 47:32
Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here, and thank you again for having me appreciate you.
Erica D'Eramo 47:37
Yeah, thanks, Anthony. And for our listeners, we will catch you on the flip side.
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Adaptive Leadership and Resilience: A Conversation with Dr. Anthony Luévanos
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo is joined once again by Dr. Anthony Luévanos, an expert in leadership development and organizational strategy. Together, they explore what it truly means to lead with resilience and adaptability in today’s ever-changing environment.
Introducing Dr. Anthony Luévanos
Dr. Luévanos’s career began in K-12 education before expanding into school and higher education administration. His research centers on leadership development and organizational behavior, and he partners with schools and thought leaders across sectors to apply these insights.
What stands out in his work is a focus on curiosity and reflection—two qualities he believes are essential for effective leadership.
Defining Resilience in Leadership
When asked how he defines resilience, Dr. Luévanos emphasizes that it’s not just about toughness or endurance. Instead, resilience is about adaptability—the ability to respond to both internal and external pressures while inspiring teams through uncertainty.
Erica offers her own perspective, comparing resilience to principles in material science: the capacity to bend under stress yet return to form. Both agree that resilience requires flexibility, awareness, and growth, not just grit.
Common Misconceptions
One major misunderstanding Dr. Luévanos highlights is the belief that resilience is a “destination”—something achieved once and for all. In reality, resilience is dynamic and ongoing, requiring continuous adaptability, emotional intelligence, and a willingness to learn from hardship.
“True resilience,” he notes, “is built not by avoiding pain, but by acknowledging and growing from it.”
Gender Dynamics and Leadership
The conversation turns to gender differences in resilience, especially in male-dominated industries. Dr. Luévanos points out that women often experience higher levels of stress and isolation than men in leadership roles.
Erica adds an example from her time working offshore, where male colleagues had access to different outlets for stress relief than women, creating an uneven playing field.
Both stress the importance of organizational awareness and intentional support to close these gaps.
The Role of Emotional Intelligence and Vulnerability
Resilience, they agree, cannot exist without self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Too often, leaders try to rush through challenges or gloss over issues, but this only undermines trust.
Instead, leaders must embrace vulnerability, practice two-way communication, and foster a culture where employees feel safe to voice concerns. “Relying on your team is not weakness—it’s the foundation of resilient organizations,” says Dr. Luévanos.
Lessons from Extreme Conditions
The discussion also draws on examples of resilience in extraordinary circumstances. They touch on Viktor Frankl’s reflections during the Holocaust and the Stockdale Paradox, which highlights the balance of facing harsh realities while maintaining hope.
Dr. Luévanos shares his own experience with burnout, underscoring the necessity of recognizing limits and prioritizing self-care before resilience fractures completely.
Building Resilient Teams
A recurring theme is the power of communication and support. Leaders must clearly articulate their vision, actively listen, and build trust through consistent engagement.
Erica ties this back to her own writing on asking for help and the importance of community. Resilience, they agree, is a shared endeavor—sustained by connection, not isolation.
Final Thoughts
As the conversation closes, Dr. Luévanos reminds listeners that resilience is central to both personal growth and professional success. It requires adaptability, courage, and continuous self-reflection.
For those interested in connecting with him, he offers his contact information and encourages ongoing dialogue.
Erica thanks Dr. Luévanos for his insights and leaves listeners with a reminder: resilience is not about going it alone—it’s about adapting, connecting, and leading with humanity.