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Erica D'Eramo 0:04
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have guest Andrea D Carter joining us. Andrea is a globally recognized expert in neuroscience based belonging in the workplace, and the founder of the belonging first methodology, a strategist, researcher and TEDx speaker, she helps organizations turn belonging into measurable infrastructure that drives trust, performance and retention, with multiple global awards for innovation and leadership. Andrea's work bridges the gap between DEI and organizational performance. She serves as an adjunct professor at Adler University and is a Forbes council member. She's here to talk to us today about what we really mean when we talk about belonging, and how do we get it right?
Erica D'Eramo 1:02
Hey, Andrea, so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
Andrea Carter 1:08
Thanks so much for having me. Erica, it's fantastic to be here today, and I'm really looking forward to diving into belonging and how we get it right?
Erica D'Eramo 1:18
Yeah, it's a big topic of conversation, right? I know that my overtime, I think 20 something years ago, we started talking about diversity, and then we started talking about inclusion, and then we started expanding, and rightfully, you know, it turned into DEI, we looked at equity, and now a lot of folks are talking about DEIB, my, you know, my title with my role with ICF New England evolved to include the beast. So we use the B a lot. We talk about belonging a lot, but I don't know that we're all on the same page about what we mean
Andrea Carter 1:54
well, and that's certainly what the research showed. And so, you know, let's, let's start there, because I think that's a really great place for us to build from for today. So tons of leaders say that they value belonging, but really few A, know that they can measure it, and B, know what it actually looks like or what it actually means. And so when you look at belonging and making belonging measurable, it actually then becomes a business strategy. Right now, just using the language, we are seeing a lot of organizations really falling short. So I like to as a very like simple way of thinking about it, belonging is the science that helps you feel within your organization that you want to be there, okay. So, nice and simple. So what does that actually mean? Right? Let's get let's get into that. So most organizations right now, I would say, are confusing belonging with culture initiatives. They conflate it to psychological safety, often, which is only 1/5 of what's needed. The scientific research that I did and validated specifically on belonging is produced five specific indicators that you need to have present in order for the brain and for an employee to experience belonging. So those very simply put our comfort, connection, contribution, psychological safety and well being. That's why I say psychological safety is 1/5 of what we need. So let's look at the foundations of each of those because you can measure those five indicators, and each of those indicators actually has tactics, behaviors and metrics that help us improve belonging within the organization.
Erica D'Eramo 4:03
So it's, it's interesting to hear you tie all that together, and to talk about like, it makes me want to be here, because I have to say that one of the top conversations that I have with coaching clients, like leadership coaching clients, is around, how do I motivate people? Like, well, there's this theory called Self Determination Theory, and a lot of what you just mentioned ties into Self Determination Theory and motivation and so, like, this is stuff people are dealing with day to day. And when people say, like, oh, belonging. Like, I don't know, that sounds like soft stuff, or that sounds like, Oh, we're here to do work like this isn't family. We're here as colleagues to like, execute like this is like, table stakes, man. This is the guts of how you actually have a group of people focused on one thing and work together to do it. So...
Andrea Carter 4:59
Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. And I appreciate that you've said that as well Erica, because that's I would say it's one of my biggest pet peeves, is that people hear that word belonging, and they automatically associate it to soft skill, when really, if you look at the data and the research and the validation that we have amassed over I know in a lot of my bios, it says 100,000 employees. We're now closer to 200,000 employees across eight different industries where we're closing these gaps by 23% on average over two years. There aren't too many people that can say that they're doing that right now. And so one of the things that we're doing that's very different is we're using these five indicators to change the way that we're actually showing up for each other. So DEI, in a lot of ways, the way, it's not that DEI was bad, it's not that we don't need DEI. DEI measures completely different things than belonging. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that when you look at how DEI was initially launched, a lot of it actually created polarization because it isolated and created more divisive language than it actually did bring people together. And so when we look at the indicators of belonging, they actually shift the conversation. Imagine it's like the bridge that you bring together between your culture and your DEI work, and those metrics never actually, they correlated, but they didn't necessarily have causation. We're now showing that there is causation with belonging. So if we look at comfort, for example, the organizational clarity around expectations, around role, definition, around what the competencies are even required in order for somebody to be successful in that role. So this indicator, when it's used correctly, tells us is the environment designed to set people up for success? Or is it actually leaving them guessing with what's expected, and they're kind of holding out for these telltale signs from someone we don't necessarily know who, who's going to be accountable for results when we look at connection that's looking at, you know, are we deliberately cultivating relationships, authentic interaction, mutual support, shared purpose within teams? So this indicator will actually tell us if the team and the leader are actively building those bridges for new people to belong, or whether we're just expecting them to figure it out and navigate their social political landscape on their own, which is more of a fitting in type of you know value, if you will,
Andrea Carter 8:00
contribution is looking at the team and the organizational practices specifically on not just the surface, but are people being recognized for what they're contributing? That doesn't necessarily mean the end result, It means how they're showing up day in and day out. Are we actually leveraging each person's unique skills, perspectives and efforts, or are other things happening? So some of the other things that happen are, you know, somebody shares a perspective and it's stolen by somebody else on the team as theirs, or perhaps the leader steals the information and passes it along to leaders as their own. So this indicator really gives us the pathways of whether or not people are being valued and whether they're being seen for what they're doing, or whether the systems are only actually looking at certain voices, certain styles, certain backgrounds, psychological safety, on the other hand, that's looking at all of the team norms, that's looking at leadership behaviors, organizational responses, that's looking at your feedback, whether you're giving or receiving it, and so if Your people can actually speak up, take risks, make mistakes, right, challenge ideas without negative consequences. This indicator really tells us if we've built a culture where dissent and questions are welcomed, or whether people have learned Don't say a word, it's way safer to be quiet than to be honest. And then the last is well being so the policies, practices, workload, design, and then specifically cultural norms. So are we actually actively promoting and sustaining people's mental, physical and emotional health, or are we just taking everything that we can and burning them out from the minute they get into the organization. So the in this indicator specifically will help us understand if our environment is structured for support, and what I mean by that is sustainable performance, right? Are we creating sustainable performance over time, year over year, or are we burning people out and calling it a high performance culture?
Erica D'Eramo 10:28
Yeah. So what do we do with that information? How do we how do we take those five components and and turn that into workplace belonging?
Andrea Carter 10:38
Yeah. So the first element that I always say that we need to ensure that we get right is that we have this 100% responsibility trap. And what that means is that often, when we've hired somebody into an organization, they start and we put 100% expectation on them to fit in, to figure out the unwritten rules, to decode the culture, to build their own relationships, to prove their value, and when they struggle, we blame them for not being a culture fit with belonging. One of the elements, the undercurrents here is that the team, the leader, each of your colleagues, also have to own 50% accountability for that person's belonging and that person's success. So when someone struggles, the team can use those five indicators as a diagnostic tool. Is there comfort? Does the new person actually understand, if they're clear about what success looks like, for example, connection, have we actively included them? Have we built bridges? Are we getting to know them? Are we getting to know what is important to them and what is important to our our team, to move forward and create from a contribution perspective, have we created space for their unique value? You know, often people are hired in to disrupt, and then what happens is that, because the leader doesn't actually indicate to the team, this person is here to disrupt, this person here is here to shake up how we're thinking. Because while what was working five years ago, three years ago, this year, it's not going to work moving forward. We need new thinking. We need new people coming in. But often that new person coming in has this burden of proof that if they are meant to only fit in and go along with the norms of the team, then they can't actually do their job, and nobody is actually supporting that ability for everyone to lean into that belonging, accountability. So the element to shift from Why can't you fit in to where are we failing to help you belong? That's a critical question that we have to start asking, because shared accountability means that belonging isn't something that people have to earn or fight for. It's something that we build together, systematically, measurably every single day.
Erica D'Eramo 13:22
So if you're a leader in an organization that is faced with tackling this, what, how do you suggest leaders start to visualize this approach? It like, what's the framework that's most helpful?
Andrea Carter 13:36
Yeah, so the first thing that I always recommend is actually measuring some of these belonging indicators, but when you don't have a survey to be able to actually do that, start by just looking at some of the spaces where your team or someone on your team, is struggling. So think about who's the person that's super burned out, who's the person who's disengaged, who's the person who keeps making mistakes, and what is the organization's response to that person? So are you sending them for resilience training, if somebody is burnt out, are you giving them access to a meditation app? Are you offering them a wellness stipend? And look, I'm not against any of those things, but here's the problem, if you have an employee who is burnt out, and we're asking individuals to build resilience inside systems that are actually breaking them down, then the research is actually really clear, you actually can't recover individual resilience tools without addressing the environment, because it takes people longer to recover, and they have less capacity to do so. And so that would be one of the things that we're seeing a lot of right now, that organizing. Situations are leaning into giving people more to do, rather than actually looking what are we doing for these people? Does that make sense?
Erica D'Eramo 15:12
Yeah, there's a meme that's, like, quite popular around Are you experiencing, like, a systemic issue? Have you tried an individual response or individual solution to it. You know, just this is one of the reasons I just despise the narrative around resilience.
Andrea Carter 15:30
Agreed, I completely agree, because you can't actually be resilient if you don't have the environment that is supporting you or helping fix the culture. So we hear all of these sayings like, oh, Erica, just be more resilient, or just figure out the culture, or build a thicker skin, or go do a meditation app. And you know, when we hear those things, you're essentially just putting the blame back on the individual, rather than actually looking at what you're doing in that space to create that element. So did you actually give them clarity about what's expected start there? That is a number one question that you should be asking with every single new hire, as well as every single new member that's coming on to your team, or if you've had a change, maybe there's been a reorg. Maybe you have, you know, employees that have switched teams, give them clarity about what is actually changing and what is now expected of them. And if you don't necessarily know all of the details, start with what you do know, because in order for you to give a person's brain the ability for them to feel calm and to start taking action, we actually need to be clear on what it is that we're meant to do and deliver. And so if we're not starting there from that comfort element, it's really hard for people to get comfortable and feel at ease so that they can do their best work. So you have a lot of people who, at the beginning of, you know, a team interaction, aren't actually even set up for, you know, being productive or being efficient or being motivated. And so when we look about that clarity, that clarity actually is super important for them, being able to get started. Think about team meetings and team and the agenda that goes into that. How many meetings are started without an agenda, not having that simple clarity is something that really impacts many people and impacts neurodivergent people, even more, which, by 2040, half of our workforce is meant to be ADHD, or some form of neurodivergent. So when we think about these things, and we're not creating spaces and we're not creating infrastructure to actually set people up for success, that's a problem.
Erica D'Eramo 18:02
So what happens when folks don't get this right? What's the what does it look like?
Andrea Carter 18:07
Yeah. So typically, we see companies struggling when it comes to this work for many reasons. The biggest pattern that I see is what I would call the checkbox belonging, and this is where, you know, organizations are treating belonging like a compliance list, similar to what they did with DEI, you know, they'll launch an ERG. They did diversity training. They celebrated Pride Month. You know, check, check, check. And when they're confused, then nothing actually changes, right? So here's the thing, you can have all the initiatives in the world, but if your day to day systems stay the same, and you're not weaving these five indicators into how you're supporting people, you're just going through the motions. And so let me give you a couple of examples of you know, where this shows up. Let's take the DEI element first, because it's a really easy one for us to think of. So this is, you know, where we take a celebration without accountability. So I see this one constantly organizations celebrate heritage months, which is excellent, yay, good. But at the same time, there's a people leader who constantly talks over certain people in meetings, steals recognition for, you know, work someone else has done, and claims it as their own. Or culture fit is code for the person who looks like us, that went to the same school as us, who talks like us. So the surface stuff is there, but the toxic behaviors, those are the behaviors that remain untouched, because people aren't actually accountable for making somebody else's comfort important or making somebody else's connection important. When we look at. Another example would be, you know, the diversity, or, sorry, the disability or the neurodivergent blind spot. So this one is a huge frustration. One in four adults has a disability in the US, and it's one in five in Canada. So that's the largest underserved demographic in the workplace right now, but belonging initiatives completely ignore disability and inclusion. And actually, in Canada, we've now changed the acronym to IDEA, rather than DEI, to ensure that accessibility is added on to the acronym. So what this means is we're not talking about accommodations as an afterthought or a prior plan. We're talking about it as an afterthought. We're not designing meetings, communication, advancements for opportunities with disability in mind from the start. So when we wonder, then you know, why don't our disabled employees feel like they belong? Well, a lot of it is because we haven't actually included them in the conversation to start with, and we haven't preemptively thought about where we might be. You know, really not even creating the conditions for them to feel comfortable within the space that they're in. One of my favorite examples of this was actually a leader who we had talked about disability as a big overhaul in the organization, and she was like, No, Andrea, I'm doing everything right. Like, I promise you we have this covered. And then she broke her foot, and then while she was trying to take care of herself, she broke her other foot, and so she was then in a wheelchair. And from a disability perspective, she couldn't even get into her own building at first, because the ramp that they had installed wasn't actually wide enough for the wheelchair. And then when they finally got her into the building, the meeting rooms that she was meant to get to, she couldn't get into because the doors weren't wide enough. So these are all you know, I'm speaking about it from like a physical perspective. But when we look at
Andrea Carter 22:16
that, the elements where we're not creating or looking at things through that comfort lens or the connection lens. We don't actually then design places where somebody can be at their best to contribute. The newest one that I see all the time now is AI implementation without Co creation. What I mean by that is we're seeing companies roll out AI systems that fundamentally change how people work, and what's happening is that they're doing it to people, not with people. And what I mean by that is that there's no input, there's no collaboration. It's just here's the new system. Go adapt, and they're shocked. Then when trust collapses, they're, you know, shocked that productivity drops, but you've just told people that their contribution doesn't matter because you haven't actually included them in the whole process, from your pre planning to your launch to your post launch, and looking at all of the stages of rolling out something new. So change management is the same as you know, AI implementation, but we are destroying belonging overnight when we're not actually looking at those five indicators and integrating them as questions into each stage of building.
Erica D'Eramo 23:53
So for folks who might be interested in following some of your work and learning more, where can they find you?
Andrea Carter 23:52
Well, I have a really
Andrea Carter 23:53
great Substack that I've just launched, and they can certainly check it out on the Substack, which is called belonging first rethink culture, and the URL is just Andrea D Carter, dot sub stack.com, you can also check out my website, which is about to go through a nice, big revamp, which I'm excited about, because originally it was all of our research that was shared on that website, so Belongingfirst.com and it's about to now go into more about how we help organizations, everything from the surveys that we administer and then analyze to actually doing leadership, support, coaching, consulting, and, you know, even some of the the customized work that we'll do for organizations,
Erica D'Eramo 24:50
yeah, excellent. We will definitely include those in the show notes, and we'll include a link to your LinkedIn as well, in case people want to follow you there, and I'm sure that there's lots of evolving research on this front as you collect more and more data. So I really appreciate you sharing some of your insights with our audience and doing this work to help uncover what belonging really means and how folks can get it right.
Andrea Carter 25:18
Thanks so much. Erica, it was a pleasure to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 25:21
Yeah, thanks. And for our listeners, you can find a summary of today's episode and all of those notes, along with a full transcript if you want it on our website, so feel free to head over there, and we look forward to seeing you next episode.
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What Belonging at Work Really Means, and How Organizations Can Get It Right
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, Erica D’Eramo is joined by Andrea D. Carter, a globally recognized expert in neuroscience-based belonging in the workplace and founder of the Belonging First methodology.
Andrea’s work focuses on helping organizations move beyond broad statements about culture and belonging toward measurable infrastructure that supports trust, performance, retention, and sustainable ways of working. As a strategist, researcher, TEDx speaker, adjunct professor, and Forbes Council member, she brings both research depth and practical organizational experience to the question at the center of this episode: what do we really mean when we talk about belonging, and how do we get it right?
Belonging Is More Than a Workplace Buzzword
Erica opens the episode by naming a familiar pattern. Over the past several decades, many organizations have moved from talking about diversity to inclusion, then equity, then DEI, and more recently DEIB, with belonging added into the mix.
The word “belonging” is used often, but that does not mean everyone is using it the same way.
Andrea starts there. She notes that many leaders say they value belonging, but far fewer understand that it can be measured or what it actually requires in day-to-day organizational life. In simple terms, Andrea describes belonging as the science that helps people feel that they want to be in the organization.
That definition is useful because it connects belonging to something leaders care about deeply: whether people are motivated to stay, contribute, trust one another, and do their best work.
The Five Indicators of Belonging
Andrea’s research identifies five indicators that need to be present for employees to experience belonging:
Comfort
Comfort is about clarity and conditions. Do people understand what is expected of them? Are roles, expectations, and competencies clear? Has the organization designed the environment in a way that helps people succeed, or are employees left guessing about what matters and how they will be evaluated?
For leaders, this is a practical starting point. Belonging is not only about warm feelings or team chemistry. It begins with whether people have enough clarity to settle their nervous systems, orient themselves, and do good work.
Connection
Connection focuses on relationships, mutual support, shared purpose, and authentic interaction. Andrea distinguishes this from expecting people to navigate the social and political landscape on their own.
When organizations leave connection to chance, new employees may feel pressure to “figure it out” by decoding unwritten rules. A belonging-centered approach asks whether leaders and teams are actively building bridges.
Contribution
Contribution examines whether people are recognized for the value they bring, including their perspectives, skills, and day-to-day efforts.
Andrea points out that contribution is not only about the final result. It also includes whether ideas are acknowledged, whether credit is fairly given, and whether organizations are truly leveraging the unique strengths people were hired to bring.
This becomes especially important when someone is brought in to challenge stale thinking or help the organization evolve. If the team expects that person to simply fit into old norms, they may never be able to contribute what they were actually hired to offer.
Psychological Safety
Psychological safety is often treated as interchangeable with belonging, but Andrea describes it as one part of the larger picture. It includes whether people can speak up, make mistakes, challenge ideas, offer feedback, and ask questions without fear of negative consequences.
When psychological safety is missing, people learn that silence is safer than honesty. That silence may look like alignment on the surface, while problems, dissent, and important information stay hidden.
Well-Being
Well-being includes policies, workload design, practices, and cultural norms that either support or undermine mental, physical, and emotional health.
Andrea connects well-being directly to sustainable performance. Organizations may describe themselves as high-performing while relying on burnout as the engine. A belonging-centered lens asks whether the environment supports people’s ability to perform over time, or whether it extracts from them until they are depleted.
Why Belonging Is Business Strategy
Erica names a tension many leaders will recognize. Some people hear “belonging” and assume it belongs in the soft-skills category. They may think, “We are here to work. This is not a family.”
Andrea agrees that this misunderstanding is common. She also challenges it directly. Her research and client work position belonging as a business strategy because it affects trust, motivation, clarity, retention, performance, and whether people can contribute meaningfully.
This is where the conversation connects with much of the leadership coaching work we see at Two Piers. Leaders often ask how to motivate people, build engagement, reduce friction, or help teams work together more effectively. Belonging is not separate from those questions. It is part of the infrastructure that makes those outcomes possible.
The 100% Responsibility Trap
One of Andrea’s key concepts in the episode is the “100% responsibility trap.”
This happens when organizations place the full burden of belonging on the person joining or struggling inside the system. New employees are expected to fit in, learn the unwritten rules, decode the culture, build relationships, and prove their value. If they struggle, the organization may conclude they were not a culture fit.
Andrea argues that belonging requires shared accountability. The leader, team, and colleagues also have responsibility for creating the conditions where that person can succeed.
Instead of asking, “Why can’t this person fit in?” leaders can ask, “Where are we failing to help this person belong?”
That shift changes the diagnostic lens. If someone is struggling, the five indicators can help leaders examine the system around them. Is there enough clarity? Has connection been built? Is their contribution being recognized? Can they speak honestly? Is the environment supporting sustainable performance?
When Resilience Becomes the Wrong Answer
The conversation turns next to burnout and resilience, a topic Erica notes with some candor.
Andrea points out that many organizations respond to burnout with individual-level solutions: resilience training, meditation apps, wellness stipends, or similar offerings. Those tools may have value, but they do not solve the problem if the environment itself is breaking people down.
If the workload, norms, expectations, or systems are creating burnout, asking individuals to become more resilient can become a way of shifting responsibility back onto the person being harmed by the system.
Andrea emphasizes that clarity is one of the first practical interventions. When someone joins a team, moves into a new role, experiences a reorganization, or navigates a change, leaders need to be clear about what is expected. Even when all the answers are not available, leaders can start with what they do know.
That clarity helps people orient, take action, and use their energy effectively.
Checkbox Belonging
Andrea also names a pattern she calls “checkbox belonging.”
This shows up when organizations treat belonging as a list of initiatives rather than a shift in daily systems and behaviors. They may launch an employee resource group, hold a training, celebrate a heritage month, or mark a visible event. Those things can be worthwhile, but they do not create belonging on their own.
If the day-to-day culture remains unchanged, the deeper issues remain untouched.
Andrea gives examples such as a leader who talks over certain people in meetings, someone taking credit for another person’s idea, or “culture fit” functioning as code for people who share the same background, style, or social norms as those already in power.
Belonging requires more than visible programming. It requires accountability for the behaviors and systems that shape whether people are comfortable, connected, recognized, safe to speak, and able to perform sustainably.
Accessibility, Disability, and Designing From the Start
Andrea also highlights disability and neurodivergence as areas often overlooked in belonging work.
Too often, accommodations are treated as an afterthought rather than part of how meetings, communication, advancement opportunities, and physical spaces are designed from the beginning. When organizations do not include disabled employees in the conversation or think proactively about accessibility, they miss major barriers to belonging.
She shares an example of a leader who believed her organization was doing well on disability inclusion until she broke both feet and needed to use a wheelchair. She discovered that the building and meeting spaces were not as accessible as assumed.
The point extends beyond physical access. Belonging requires organizations to examine whether people can actually enter, participate, contribute, and succeed within the environments being created.
AI Implementation and Belonging
Andrea also names a newer pattern: AI implementation without co-creation.
As organizations roll out AI systems that change how people work, many are doing so to employees rather than with them. When there is no input, collaboration, or shared sense-making, trust can drop quickly.
From a belonging perspective, this sends a clear message: your contribution does not matter in shaping the systems that affect your work.
Andrea suggests that the five indicators of belonging can be used as questions throughout change management, including AI implementation. Are people comfortable with what is changing? Are they connected to the purpose and process? Are their contributions being included? Is it safe to raise concerns? Is the change being designed in a way that supports well-being and sustainable performance?
Getting Belonging Right
This episode offers a practical way to think about belonging as something measurable, observable, and built through everyday leadership behaviors.
For organizations, the work is not simply to use the language of belonging more often. It is to examine whether the systems, norms, and leadership behaviors inside the organization create the conditions for people to want to be there and to do their best work.
That requires leaders to look beyond individual performance and ask better questions about the environment around that performance.
Where is clarity missing?
Where are relationships being left to chance?
Whose contributions are being overlooked?
Where have people learned that silence is safer?
What are we calling high performance that might actually be burnout?
Those questions are not abstract. They point directly to organizational practices that can be measured, strengthened, and sustained.
Connect with Andrea D. Carter
Andrea D. Carter is the founder of Belonging First and the creator of the Belonging First methodology. Her work helps organizations measure and improve belonging through research, consulting, leadership support, and organizational strategy.
You can learn more about Andrea’s work at BelongingFirst.com and subscribe to her Substack, Belonging First: Rethink Culture, for ongoing research, frameworks, and insights on belonging, culture, and organizational performance. You can also connect with Andrea on LinkedIn.
