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Erica D'Eramo 0:04
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have Molly Booker joining us. So Molly is an author, songwriter and advocate for self discovery and authenticity. Her book, Magic in the Mess, explores the beauty found in life's chaos, while her song, no more boxes, recorded in nationals, legendary black bird studio, challenges societal expectations around identity, passionate about storytelling, personal growth and meaningful connection, she strives to inspire others to embrace their truth, slow down and recognize the internal nudges that guide them. I can't wait to talk to Molly today about the magic in the mess. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Two Piers Podcast.
Hey Molly, thanks for being on the podcast with us.
Molly Booker 1:00
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I was just looking ahead of what we're going to talk about today. And I'm like, I'm I'm ready. I'm like, Yeah, let's go.
Erica D'Eramo 1:11
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's been great getting to meet you and hear about your journey a bit, and and the magic in the mess, which is something I think I'm I'm really embracing in this phase of life so, very timely, very timely.
Molly Booker 1:27
Yeah, I love it. I just the way that life works, right? The one thing that I ultimately wanted to avoid was mess and, yeah, it took a while to really not just like be willing to even dabble in the mess, but to then prefer to spend my time there. So
Erica D'Eramo 1:50
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, there's so many directions we could take it in, but let's start first with what's your What was your journey like? Who, what took you to the Molly that we see today?
Molly Booker 2:07
Yeah, I love that. It's like, okay, where do I want to start this one today? But I think just going with where we were starting is that I really defined myself by success and the opposite of mess. So I like things perfect. My spaces were very neat and organized. I am one of those people that always needs to, like, take everything out of the car that came in with it that day, french fries and stuff like, no no. Just liked everything really handled. I liked all the boxes checked, and lived my life that way. And I thought that this really made me successful. I mean, that was a great way to achieve three master's degrees to me, that felt very successful to always, you know, work right up to the top of whatever business or organization I was in. And so I thought, like, Okay, I'm crushing life here. I've got it handled. I've got my retirement accounts, and I have my home and, you know, I'm doing the things and the stuff. And the thing for me is I I was never happy, and I thought maybe that was just like a character defect or something, like, I am missing the happiness gene or something, because the more that I'm achieving, society is telling me that I should be ecstatic by now, and I'm not. I have plenty of money, I have great friends. What is going on? And it had me in my life, really take a look at what does success mean to me? And I thought it meant having it all handled, having it all together, it looks good, and achieving and that just wasn't working for me. And so it really took something for me to really just own that to myself, this definition of success isn't working anymore, not even anymore. It never really worked for me, but to be willing to just say, I don't know, I don't know what this is going to look like, and to reinvent it. And I'd say, through this journey of writing this book, and, you know, the last five years or so, I'd say, you know, my definition of success has really morphed into knowing myself. And what's fascinating to me is I really thought I knew myself. I mean, in my late 40s, like, come on, I I know what I like, I know what I don't like. And turns out, I didn't know myself at all. And I had really designed myself to be this organized, successful person, and that kept me really. Really stuck in boxes that were not authentic, and it kept me from even knowing that myself and huge things like my sexuality. Are you kidding me? How did I not know that I was gay, like everybody else is like, Molly, duh. But I'm like, I didn't see it. I just thought, Man, I really struggle to be in relationship. I've been divorced twice. Why is this so hard for me? And again, I made that something wrong about me, like I must just really suck at relationships. There must be something unlovable about me. And come to find out, no, I I'm gay. So that is why this was not working. But I think in this journey, it's had me really come home to myself in some really tender and honest ways to say, Oh, wow, I was so wrong about myself. This, this wasn't a defect about myself. This was I just didn't know myself.
Erica D'Eramo 6:06
Yeah, what brought it? Like, what brought about the awareness? What was the pivotal moment? Or was it gradual? Like, how did you kind of reach this realization?
Molly Booker 6:19
Yeah, I think it was both, don't you love it when Yeah, was it this or this? And the person's like, yes.
Erica D'Eramo 6:26
Actually, as a coach, I do because shame on me for asking a closed ended question there. So yes, what was it?
Molly Booker 6:34
I you know, again, it's just been quite a journey. And for me, it really, I'd say, started when I was 35 I hit suicidal crisis, and I'm like, this way of living my life is just not working. I don't want to do it. I'm not happy, I, I, you know, not just not happy, but I am in so much suffering. I, if this is what life is, I would just rather not do it. And so from that point on, it's really been a journey about, how can I want to wake up in the morning? That's really all I was after. If I could just want to wake up in the morning, that would be great. And so here goes this journey. And it ended up, you know, getting a master's in spiritual psychology, and that really opening up for, you know, a spiritual conversation. And then did a lot of work in suicide prevention, and then that kind of the journey led to ministry. And so I went to seminary school, and I thought I was going to learn all the answers in seminary, like, Okay, finally I'm going to get the Bible unlocked. Like, you're just gonna tell me what it all means, and then I'll be able to tell my congregation what it means. This is great, and that's not at all what seminary was about. Spirit awesome led me to the most progressive seminary school. It's just like, hey, this is the one in Denver, and this is the ones close. But how fitting that I went to seminary that was talking a lot about our location and our privilege and our talking about race and gender and identity and sexuality, and kept thinking like, what does this have to do with religion? Like, it cracks me up that that thought occurred to me, like, what does sexuality and gender and identity and race have to do with religion? Like it, it's funny to me, like, how much I didn't know, but leaning into there, I think, started to open the doors, to really look at, what do I believe, and who am I, and what are the values that I hold? And I think that seminary opened the space. It created a space to talk about it, and for me to say, Wow, some things that I really thought I knew for sure. I'm not sure that. I'm not sure that I really believe that to be true, or I'm not sure that that really makes as much sense as I thought it did. So there was a lot of undoing in seminary, a lot of deconstruction in seminary, and a lot of questions of what, what do I want my life to be about? And do I really think that my white males are like the pinnacle of success, like, maybe that's not quite what I thought it was. And so that door I think was opening to ask myself some deep questions. And then I started, you know, having questions about race and gender expression and identity and sexuality, and you know, all in terms of like, well, this is really good information for my congregation. This is going to be great and important conversations for the kids in the congregation, like, and also for myself and. So one of my good friends, not that long after, came and said, You know, I think I'm your person. And I was like, you know, like Grey's Anatomy, like Meredith and Christina, like were BFFs. And she was like, No, not quite like that. Like, I am in love with you. And I was like, Oh, um, oh, wow. And I think because of that space that had opened up through seminary, I was able to look at it and say, Oh, wow. Okay, you know that this doesn't fit in the mental picture and the constructs that I had for myself, but trusting my heart, it feels so right. And so then it was like, you know, finding my person and falling in love kind of came first. And then was like, Oh, I guess I'm coming out at this time too. And that's a lot of the mess of it, you know, of wow, maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought I did. Maybe I don't I'm not as clear that my beliefs are as locked in as I thought that they were. Maybe there's a lot that I don't know, and I think it was the willingness to step into the messiness of the unknowing of I'm not sure, and allowing that space for something different?
Erica D'Eramo 11:24
Yeah, I have so many thoughts. I have so many, so many different directions I could take it. One would be like some, I don't know, probably inappropriate joke about how we think it's like drag queen story time, but actually, it's the church that's opening people's eyes to their queerness. But I think that, oh, there's a there's a whole thread there, but I'll leave that for now. There's a piece. There's a piece instead, that seems like another third rail topic around, it's not politics, but there's kind of a, there's a theory around governments, right? And this what they call the J curve, and it's something, I'm not going to do it justice here, but that, if you just keep you kind of two sides of the spectrum where you have quote, unquote stability. And on one side of the spectrum, it's like very tight control, and you have to retain super tight autocratic control to maintain the stability. And if you budge from that at all, it kind of plummets down that curve very, very quickly, and so the stakes are very high, but on the other side of the curve, it's like messier, more open, but it's much more that stable system is much more stable. And sometimes as you, as you're talking through that just making me think about this relationship that maybe I had with the concept of control and fitting into these boxes and like I will be safe here, and yet it needs to stay so tightly in that box, like the it's such a narrow realm to operate in, because if you stray off of that at all, it starts to feel very unstable, versus this more like messy, organic way of finding what truly life is and and straying off the narrow path to discover what it truly is that, in the end, is a much more stable, sustainable system. But like, there's that safety, there's a perceived safety, I think for whether it's a individual human or a government system, there's a perceived safety of having very rigid, structured controls and and maintaining that tightly with an iron fist, and it's not always sustainable or stable or the best use of human life.
Molly Booker 14:02
Yeah, I really relate to what you're saying, and that is how I thought I was going to achieve stability and safety. I think safety was what I was really, really after without realizing it. But I think leading into this idea of perfectionism, like, if I can just keep everything you know, like, that is the ultimate of control, like I want it to be perfect, and it is just like holding your breath kind of and and really had a lot of control on myself, like I was really controlled what I ate, when I exercised, my morning routine, my spiritual practice was so strict. I think it's funny now, but I was super strict with myself, and one of. To hold it all in, so that you know, it's like, well, this is going to keep my world safe, and this is going to keep my world predictable, and to me, that is going to make it easier to operate. But it was like, kind of like trying to hold a beach ball underwater, like that thing is trying to tip every which away, every millisecond it is exhausting, trying to, like, keep it all together. And I was terrified, like, terrified of that getting out of control. And the second it felt that way, I would just, like, double down, like, okay, you know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, gonna eat I like, I'll do the whole 30, you know, except I'm gonna do that for 100 days. I'll do the whole 100, you know. Like, really get strict with myself. And I just kept feeling like, the stricter I am, and the more discipline and the more willpower, like, the more anxious I am. Like, I'm anxious and stressed out all the time. But by the definition like I should be, this should be great, because I am really structured, and so I love to take on a word of the year, and I love to take on a word of the year that makes me super uncomfortable. And so a few years ago, I took on Messi and like, I could hardly talk about it at the beginning of like, but I'm going to lean in, because I feel like it's really got a grip on me right now. And what I was finding is is that the more like when I did let the beach ball up a little bit, like, yes, it popped up in ways that I didn't plan and I didn't expect. But it wasn't just like, oh, I can handle the mess, or I can handle the unpredictable things. It's like, wouldn't you know it, the things that had been eluding me were in that messiness, like all of a sudden, I was finding me, like more of my authentic expression. I was finding really deep love and connection and the things that I had always been looking for thinking I would find it the other way of belonging, acceptance, love, patience. I never really did find it in that model, but when I just allowed more got in that space of like, I don't know, beach balls taken off in a weird direction right now, and it looked like really life altering things of my changing my sexuality and getting divorced and coming out and leaving the church. I was a pastor in a church, and left that lifelong career and moved, you know, these major, major life transitions, which, you know, I had no, like, opposite of control all of a sudden, and it's like, wow, suddenly I'm really enjoying the experience of my life, yeah, which is funny in the places that I had so dreaded, like, really, really kept at bay.
Erica D'Eramo 14:06
I think it was a few months ago we had an episode around complex relationships with food. And the reason I reached out to Carrie Baker was the name of the licensed clinical social worker that we had on to take talk about that. And the reason I had reached out to her about this was because I feel like I do a lot of work. I do a lot of work with people across the gender spectrum, actually, but many of the women I work with, especially women working in male dominated industries, tend to be high achievers, right? Like very achievement oriented, and that has served them very well, but there is a very high correlation between that high achievement, control, orderly, having predictability, you know, being able to keep things tightly packaged and complicated relationships with food and body, because it's one, one of the many outlets for it. But I think it shows up, and there's a high correlation. So it's interesting that you brought up food a lot, because I think, like, you know, I have a history of disordered eating. I don't really like that word. I have a history with definitely some some food challenges, and it showed up in different ways in my life, but I see it as so tied into that need for control that I had previously around, like, if I can just have everything you mentioned perfectionism, right? Like we we do encourage that a lot, especially within little girls as kids, right? Get the straight A's. Behave in class. Have everything be nice and neat and tidy. Don't cause disruptions. And yet, I. There are infinite ways to be imperfect, and there is only one way to be perfect, right? Like there's one any little scratch or flaw or anything, it's not perfect. And so in coaching, we talk a lot about, like, achievement goals versus avoidance goals. And when you're avoiding imperfection, I mean, there's just such a narrow, such a low probability right of just of actually having that, versus focusing on what it is, what is it that you do want to foster and achieve in life? And you're gonna have a lot of these, like bumps and bruises and mistakes and learnings and all the messiness of it along the way. But, oh, that was a lot of just all over the place and non linear thinking right there. So as I say that, what's, what's coming to mind for you?
Molly Booker 18:23
Yeah, so many things. And like, Yes, I just, I really, really relate to that. And I think it, it has me thinking back to kind of where we started this conversation, and what did success mean to me growing up and there, I mean, it was really clear what success was. Success was, you know, I've said it and I'll say it again. You know, it really was white, cis, heterosexual male. Was really like the top of success, and it looked very athletic, strong, skinny, rich, educated like those are the things. Those are the measures of success. Well, what do I do? As you know, the only girl in our family to be successful. And for me, I really denied my my sexuality. I did well. I denied my gender as well, like I denied all my femininity. You know, it's just like I just want to be as male as I can get, because that is, to me, what I'm showing is successful. And so, you know, here's this strict way that I'm going to find success in the world, and I'm going to really, you know, really police myself a lot with what I do, to work, to effort to eat, you know, all these things with such so strict on all of those things. And I think that it's, it's been fascinating how much there is still tied up in in that idea. But as I've come out and really seen like that, that isn't the model that works for me, that isn't the model that I want my life to be about. That is not the model that I want to teach my kid either, that it is you know about authenticity and really honoring who I am and honoring the authenticity of who each individual is. And man, have I had to confront myself over and over and over and just how much judgment I've had around, not only my own weight and my belly and my hips, but, you know, I have judged 1000s of people, you know, in the airport, you know, it's just as like, Oh my gosh. Am I this human that is just like, immediately putting people in boxes based on what they look like or their weight? Yeah, I did that for a long time. It's hard to it's hard to own that. But lately, spending more time with, you know, going to yoga classes with all body shapes and like how how impactful that has been, and how helpful that has been, versus going, you know, to a yoga of, you know, who can pretzel themselves the longest and the hardest in thinnest, little teeny way, You know. And now I'm seeing these like, large bodies, like, and just the beauty in them and the power in them is really had me do a lot of work on my own body image. And, you know, I'm heavier than I've ever been in my life. And like, and I feel like I, I'm, I want to be that way right now to really look at, you know, what does my body want to do, and how am I defining beauty and attraction and all of these things, and it's so interesting to me, like I just took for granted What these definitions were. You know, what does attraction mean? You know? And to me, I thought that meant blonde, skinny lipstick, tight, tight clothes, high heels. That just does not work for me. So rather than thinking, Hmm, there's something wrong with this, dei. Definition of attraction, because that doesn't fit me. It's like, well, I there's something wrong with me, and I've done that everywhere in my life. If something isn't working, like, I'm the problem, rather than saying, like, wait a second, I need to slow down and take a look at this definition of what what does strength mean? What does beauty mean? What does authenticity mean? What does success mean? What does happiness mean? What does rest mean, you know, and just these huge areas of like weight and efforting and approving and, you know, versus just being and existing, and, yeah, my life looks completely different than it did in my 20s. Like it's just not at all what I thought it was.
Erica D'Eramo 25:49
I talked about this, like aha moment on the podcast before, so listeners might remember it, but I had this moment. Well, I specifically remember standing offshore with someone who came out there to do some assessments, and they he was very well thought, like well, very well respected, I think, because he was very good at what he did, but kind of struck fear in everybody's hearts and I had never met him, but I'd heard, you know, this guy's really, really tough, and he's just gonna come and cause us all a bunch of headache with all these findings. And he pulled me into a conference room. He was like, Hey, you have a minute? I want to talk to you. And I was like, oh no, oh no. What's gonna happen? And he pulled me aside, and he was like, Uh, these guys are trying to make your life hell. And I was like, what? And he said, I know it. I can see it. I hear about it. I just want you to know I've got your back, but don't let them win. And I was like, it was such a complex set of emotions that I had, because on the one hand, I was felt so affirmed that he could see it. But on the other hand, I thought, but my life is so short, like, I don't want to spend it playing a game like this and, and I realized that, like the game, you know, you go to a carnival and you want to go play the whatever, get the the ball in the in the bottle thing, or get the like, the hoop around the bottle, right? And you spend all this money, and you're so fixated on try after try, and you just want that, like, teddy bear that's hanging right there and and it'll, this is the game that's been set up, and you're gonna beat it. But, like, the teddy bear only means something because they said it meant something. You could go buy the teddy bear online, for, I don't know, $1.50 it was probably made using, you know, enslaved labor that's underpaid and not, not ethical. And then you gave the house all your money, right? You spent all your and you put your value as a human or as somebody who can throw rings around bottles. You delegated that to them, you abscon, you know, like you just handed that over to somebody else to determine. And I realized, like the game is rigged, they benefit from me buying into it. And ultimately, I don't need the stupid teddy bear or the title, right? Like, in this case, it was the title. I don't need that you tricked me into playing this game and believing in this game, because you benefit from it the longer I'm bought in. Ultimately, if I at the end of my life, I get to say, Oh, see those guys out there that I don't even like, agree with or have shared values with or care about I showed them versus, wow. I lived a life, doing what I wanted to do, loving who I wanted to love, spending my time the way I wanted to spend it, impacting the people I wanted to impact. Like, which of those two feels right? You know, like it was just this aha moment of, oh shoot, I'm playing somebody else's game. I'm gonna take my ball and go home.
Molly Booker 29:01
Oh my gosh. I love that metaphor. And now metaphor for life, so much of just the like, arbitrary nature of like, okay, you're gonna take this random ring and put it around this random bottle in the exact way that I tell you to, and then I'm gonna give you this random arbitrary thing, you know, and just like how vested I was in that game, like so vested, and how much I made, who I was as A person, my value, my worth, so dependent on that. It brings up, you know, gosh, it just brings up so much emotion now of how hard I was on myself that I happened to really suck at putting that ring around that bottle and thinking like my wife doesn't have value because I can. To do this, one thing that we're calling is like a winner, and you know just how difficult it has been to to make the decision, like, I'm not going to play that game anymore. Like it has been so difficult to own that to myself and to, like, really have some forgiveness for myself for how, how I showed up playing that game, and how I treated myself playing that game. And I think that, you know, one thing that I spend a lot of time talking to my wife about and, you know, I think my wife and my kid are really the greatest teachers for me on this of how I, you know, how I am valuing and spending my time. You know, I have had this deep seated thing, like, I need to effort in order to, like, have room to exist. I need to learn, you know? And, yep, that'll hard. It has been for me to play the guitar or to practice drawing cartooning, or to venture into songwriting or to go for a walk, you know, it's like I'm wasting my time, or I'm not, you know, emailing, I'm not producing, and, man, like, wow, that has been difficult to, you know, it's kind of like, Wow. I got so trapped in this game that is really, really hard to go walk around the rest of the Carnival not thinking about that dang bottle, you know? It's like, Yeah, can't let it go. But it is. It has been a practice of like, okay, what? What would I love to do today? You know? And it, it's hit all those nerves for me, of like, I feel like I'm being frivolous. I feel like I'm being lazy. I feel like I'm, you know, not productive. But wow, what? How I've showed up as a human to my family, my friends, living my life that way of playing guitar and writing some songs and talking to people and cartooning and going to a comic book store, like, how is that going to do anything for anybody? And it's fascinating, you know, that has moved the needle more of the things that really, really matter to me, which is authenticity and just sharing my authentic life, I think, has unconsciously given other people permission to do the same, and that is what I believe in, more than anything. So it's like this, there could be nothing greater for me to do than to authentically Express and live my life. And I still struggle because I'm like, can it be this good? You know, like, right? Like, it's supposed to be painful. Well, somebody said that, but I don't think so.
Erica D'Eramo 33:14
Or we're waiting for the other shoe to drop, right? We're waiting for it's like, all fall apart. I Yeah. I mean, these are neural pathways that have been developed over decades, right? I agree. It's not like I woke up that day and I thought, Oh, that's it like, whatever, the scales have fallen from my eyes, and now I see clearly and it's all illuminated. It's a practice, and I think especially, I still see the control tendencies in myself when I'm stressed or when there's a values piece that's like pinging for me that I think there's a value under threat, and so I kind of revert to that earlier version of my brain that needs that high level of control. And I talk to clients all the time who are like, Oh, my boss needs this control, or they need the control and like that. Need for control is so deep seated and takes so much time. And the and the narratives right around productivity and worthiness, they take so much time to unpack, often with the help of, like, a therapist and a coach, not doing therapy, but like, focusing on what it is you do on a manifest. But these things self exploration. And it's funny, you this is kind of backtracking, but you mentioned the yoga thing. And right before you had mentioned yoga, and we were talking about sort of control and perfection, I was remembering this one yoga class I had where, and this was when I was still very like, very rigid and controlled. So when yoga class I had where the instructor said they told us to, you know, class. So not over, but we were gonna go into fast enough, like, the final resting pose and and everybody was like, fidgeting, trying to get perfect on their mat. And he was like, you guys don't need to be perfect on the mat. Like, what if you had an ankle or, like, a heel just off the mat a little, you'll be okay, right? And this just aha moment of, I don't need to be perfectly aligned on my mat during this final resting pose where my eyes are closed and I'm like, meditating, wow. And clearly everybody in the room was like feeling like this, that even in yoga, which is about like embracing where you're at and being present, we all need a little reminder that we'll be okay if, like, our heel is not perfectly on the mat. Yeah, that must have been over a decade ago. I still remember that moment of, like, lying on my mat, being like, whoa. I don't need. I don't need. I don't need that.
Molly Booker 35:51
Yeah, there was a time in my 30s when I was, you know, in the thick of it, you know, managing some medical offices and working on my masters and things like that. And I decided I wanted to do a triathlon. And so I, you know, was really going to get in shape to do really well on this triathlon. And so I started doing yoga three times a day, morning, noon and night practice. And then, you know, the workouts and all of it, and I was so obsessive and competitive about yoga go in. And I really, the whole time was judging myself based on, you know, Can I do it the best? Can I balance the longest? Can I hold this posture the most perfectly? And, you know, and when is this class over, you know. And it's interesting, that was my experience of yoga all those hours that I was on the mat was, you know, who's better, you know? And it really put me. There was a big against this, you know, like, if you do better, I do worse, you know, or if I'm better than you, or you're worse than me, and coming to Nashville, of seeing just in a completely different experience of yoga, of to see that it's, it can't, it can be a completely different experience of how, like, how does this posture feel in my body? Can this be a way for me to come into my body? You know, it doesn't really have anything to do with anybody else in the room. Hilarious. Like, how different those mindsets were, or what I thought I was doing on the matter why I was there, I think, is really similar to, you know, how I was living my life before, very competitive, very much, judging, rating, good, bad, right, wrong. And, you know, it's interesting what that experience is like to let go of that polarity, you know, of and judgment. And just say, you know, I'm really curious. What's going to show up on my mat today. You know, I'm curious. Does this stretch feel like expansive or constrictive? Does this feel good or not so good? Would I like to hold it longer or not as long? Completely different kind of conversation. And I find, like, I am really, really delighted, like, and full of curiosity and wonder about the conversations that I'm having, you know, on the mat of my life. Yeah, hey, you know of what does it look like to to rest? What does it look like to enjoy comforts, or to play, or, you know, to create and do art? And, you know, it's a fascinating conversation, and I don't know, I you know who's to say, which one's right. I just really enjoy the second more than I was enjoying the first way.
Erica D'Eramo 39:10
I feel like I'd be remiss if I some of the these topics are bringing up, like, books that I have really enjoyed, that I feel like I probably recommend a lot. So I'm going to throw them out there for anyone listening that it's like, well, first of all, folks should check out your book. Right? Magic in the mess, for sure. So we'll put that. We'll put that up there. The book. Rest is resistance by Trisha Hersey. Is a really and it, it kind of explores the connection between really, like, this productivity mindset. And how extrapolated that is tied to white supremacy, tied to viewing humans as resources to be exploited and ultimately like the enslavement of humans so really powerful. But I. Undoing all the narrative around like, do I deserve? You know, the concept of deserving rest or earning rest, and unpacking that the book, The Joy of saying no, was another one that was so eye opening for me in terms of people's views of you and how much of our lives we spend trying to avoid pissing other people off. And then the last one people or disappointing, yeah, disappointing, making them sad. Yeah, like, but for some external, extrinsic, you know, assessment that's not originating internally, that maybe we've inherited the that belief, but not chosen it. And then the last one was, that was more recently, was 4000 weeks. And I think, you know, we might, we might have talked about 4000 weeks, but it's really about like, if you live to 80, you have approximately 4000 weeks on the earth. That one's by Oliver Berkman. And what are you doing with that time? You know, are you living it for other people? Are you living it for yourself, and just not taking for granted that we have all this time, that we'll figure it out later, that at the end, we'll get the gold star.
Molly Booker 41:08
Yeah, right. You know some of my favorites, and I've really, really loved the conversations lately that you know, Glennon Doyle is having Elizabeth Gilbert, Brene Brown, Martha Beck. And, you know, I've loved the, you know, Brene Brown, Gifts of Imperfection and really looking at, I just went to a seminar about creativity with Elizabeth Gilbert and Martha and just the importance of art, you know, I always, you know, kind of thought like, oh, that's the X extra. That's the extracurricular, you know, that's the, you know, it's really the math and the science and the physics and the calculus. Like, to me, I don't know there was always something like, no pain, no gain. Like, if it isn't painful, it's we're not. This is just pointless then. But you know, the music or art, you know, or, you know, being outside, I just lately have really loved the conversations about how important that is, and just like that is resistance, yeah, me, that is just that has been a huge like, Aha for me, that rest is resistance, that art is resistance, you know, like that is for me, helping to create the difference in the world that I would want to see by telling stories and by sharing stories and by creating, you know, comics, music, art books. Yeah, so opposite of what I grew up thinking.
Erica D'Eramo 43:03
I think you mentioned it. I think I first came across Tricia Hersey on the Glenn and Doyle podcast. So there's an episode about, like, ditching grind culture, I think is maybe the title, something like that, that where she introduced this concept of rest as resistance. And there's a book out there I'm hoping to read soon called pleasure activism, and just this idea that finding lately, you know, people are like, how are you doing? How are you doing it? Just there's so much chaos in the world and so much in the news, and so much to be scared about, or frustrated about, or disappointed or fearful, and it can be anxiety inducing, but I really feel like finding the pockets of joy that's like my my commitment right now is I am determined to find pockets of joy, not just like calmness or okay, but actual laugh out loud or tears of joy, or whatever that looks like, like. I am determined I'm going to find that even if it's just brief or fleeting or unscheduled or whatever, like, that's the thing I'm committed to right now, so.
Molly Booker 44:09
And I love that I my wife, and I have had so many, like, really hilarious moments of like, I am really working at, like, rest and relax. And, you know, it's interesting. I'll be sitting on the couch watching TV, and I'm like, I am so tense in my body, like, I am holding tight, like all my muscles, and in my mind, I'm like, Okay, let that go. Like, let it go, relax. And I like, have this whole mantra to, like, relax the muscles, and then, or relax, and then four minutes later, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm doing it again, you know, of just holding so tight, or really holding in my jaw, you know, like, so tight. And, you know, it's to me, it's funny. It's like, now I'm really effort being at relaxing.
Erica D'Eramo 45:02
Gold star, 10 out of 10, eight plus on relaxing. Yeah, my husband taught me to relax, so I admit I needed a partner.
Molly Booker 45:11
Yes, like, yeah. It doesn't just come natural of to me, of you know. And what's interesting is that I find when I am feeling scared, or I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling uncomfortable, my go to is control. Like I want to start cleaning house, I want to do laundry, I want to do the dishes, you know, and I want to tell my kid what to do, you know? I find like I get really like. I want to grab control. And that energy, I'm starting to notice, like, oh, that control energy. It's not about me being right or being smarter than my kid or that is about me feeling dysregulated and me feeling scared. And when I'm in that space, I want to control things. And so it's been interesting. You know, we just had spring break, and I'm like, I'm doing it, oh my gosh, I'm doing it in the airport. I am, like, controlling everybody and everything. Okay, take a breath.
Erica D'Eramo 46:15
Love an itinerary.
Molly Booker 46:16
I'm anxious bringing our mixed race, queer, non binary kid through security, it makes me anxious. Yeah, and how I show up that way when I get anxious, it's just been really interesting to notice and to respond in a different way of like telling my kid, this makes me nervous. You know, when they ask you your name and it, you know, and then they're like, wait, what? Because the name doesn't, you know, always align with what you would assume their gender to be. And just by having some of those conversations and talking it out, but it it has been so profoundly helpful in my marriage to realize that I want to get controlling when I am feeling wonky and anxious and scared. And I mean, man, that led to some really tough conversations and fights with my wife, but to see now that we both can use that language of like, Oh, I'm, I'm feeling scared in this moment. I'm, I'm feeling really dysregulated, and I'm now wanting to tell you exactly how to load the dishwasher like that. There's a specific way that that would go.
Erica D'Eramo 47:31
Feeling a little called out right now, little my my husband's gonna edit this podcast, and I think gonna maybe mention that. I mean, physics just says you have to do it a certain way. No, I'm just kidding. But you know what? So what if we gotta run it twice, right? Like it's it'll be okay. He's actually very good at loading the dishwasher, something that maybe it's better if I just don't get involved at all. But on that note, so what would your what for folks who are listening before we talk about how they can find you like what are, what would your key kernels of wisdom be that you want listeners to walk away today from our conversation with?
Molly Booker 48:22
I loved the song, U2 song. I still haven't found what I'm looking for, and I just felt like that was my life anthem, and I felt over and seen by just that angsty way that you can sing, like I still I have done all the things, and I still haven't found it. And I'd say anybody that that resonates with I would like to suggest that maybe that thing you're looking for is you, and for me in my life, when I have felt the loneliness, the most lonely, the the most down on myself and the most like unworthy is when I really distance myself from myself. I've been trying to please other people, or thinking other people had a better way of doing it than I did, or trying to contort myself into the way that other people wanted me to be. And you know, as I've found, really getting to know myself and expressing myself, even if it doesn't fit the status quo, has really helped me to really love myself, to find beauty in myself, and that has just rippled into, you know, the relationship I have with my dad, or the relationship I have with my mom, the relationship I have with my friends, with my kid, with my wife, it has changed everything for me. And so I've always thought that I could find that thing out there somewhere, and I. My nugget is just try it. I mean, you, hey, you can always come back to trying to find it out there anytime that's not going anywhere. But maybe just try on going inward a little bit. And what does doing? Just seeking that joy, just doing something today, because I love it, and that's the only reason. And you know, to me, that's really shifted everything and been so incredibly helpful.
Erica D'Eramo 50:31
Yeah, and folks can read more about that journey right in your book. So where can they find where can they find you? What's, what's the best place to look
Molly Booker 50:43
Yeah, the best place is mollybooker.com I am, you know, really reevaluating where I am showing up on the internet these days and same. Yeah, so let go of Facebook and Instagram. Was harder than I thought I was going to be blue sky and sub stack, I'm loving, but all of those links are at Molly booker.com and I would love to be more in the conversation so you can shoot me a message on the website or on sub stack. I'd love to, you know, hear from you, and I just so think all of our stories are so important, and love being in the conversation. So I thank you for this conversation. It's fun. And I mean, I could just keep going on and on and on, but yeah, I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo 51:36
Yeah, and your book, where can folks find your book Magic in the Mess?
Molly Booker 51:41
Really, anywhere books are sold, the links are on my website to find it. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, but I just want to give a plug for your local bookstore, you know.
Erica D'Eramo 51:52
Yeah, absolutely!
Molly Booker 51:54
And ask them to order a copy of Magic in the Mess for you,
Erica D'Eramo 51:59
and I'll check and see if it's on bookshop.com but that would be our bookshop.org. Is another one where you can select which bookstore you want to support. So when I order, that's my go to these days, instead of the big ones.But and I select my local bookstore to get my get the proceeds from my purchases. So...
Molly Booker 52:20
Let's do it. What's a shout out to your local bookstore.
Erica D'Eramo 52:24
Mockingbird bookstore in Bath is my favorite local bookstore. So that's, that's where my proceeds go. Whether it's I use libro FM these days for audiobooks, and I use bookshop.org for either digital books, because they have a digital book platform now or for physical books, unless I just wander around my lovely local bookstore and grab one off the shelf. So...
Molly Booker 52:49
I'm gonna give a shout out to two: Stay Gold Bookstore in Pittsburgh.
Erica D'Eramo 52:54
Nice.
Molly Booker 52:54
Wow. You have to go like that is a must, a must if you're ever in Pittsburgh, stay gold and in Edwards, Colorado, The Bookworm.
Erica D'Eramo 53:05
Oh, cool.
Molly Booker 53:06
Two places that just is, like it just feels good to be in there. Yeah, you know,
Erica D'Eramo 53:12
I love being surrounded by books. Yeah, it's an energy so awesome. Well, thank you so much, Molly for joining us. We'll include links in the show notes. And for anyone listening that would like to read a summary of this, you can find that on our website, on twopiersconsulting.com along with a link to the transcript if you prefer to read this instead of listen to it. So thanks for joining us for such a wide ranging, really vulnerable conversation. I appreciate it, Molly.
Molly Booker 53:42
Thank you, all my pleasure. For sure.
Erica D'Eramo 53:45
Awesome, and for our listeners, we will see you next episode. Thanks for listening.
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Finding Magic in the Mess: A Conversation with Molly Booker
On this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo sits down with author, songwriter, and self-discovery advocate Molly Booker. What unfolds is a deeply personal and inspiring conversation about authenticity, vulnerability, and the radical transformation that comes from letting go of perfection.
From Perfection to Presence
Molly Booker’s journey began in a familiar place: striving. Success was once measured in checklists—degrees, roles, relationships—all lined up in a picture-perfect version of life. But as Molly shares, achieving those milestones didn’t bring happiness. Instead, it left her feeling disconnected and exhausted.
In her book Magic in the Mess, Molly unpacks how she began to dismantle the tightly wound version of herself in favor of something much messier—and far more authentic.
Redefining Success on Her Own Terms
As Molly describes, her definition of success used to revolve around control and external validation. But a pivotal realization—both personal and professional—turned that story on its head.
Coming out as queer, leaving her pastoral role, and stepping into an identity that was both uncertain and deeply true, Molly began the hard but rewarding work of building a life based on who she really is, not who she thought she was supposed to be.
Erica relates with her own resonance around the phrase “magic in the mess”—a reminder that life isn’t tidy, and that fulfillment often comes from leaning into the unknown.
Seminary, Spiritual Psychology, and Seeing the World Differently
A major turning point for Molly came during seminary, where she studied spiritual psychology and encountered progressive teachings around race, gender, and identity. The experience shook loose long-held beliefs and opened space for more expansive thinking—not just spiritually, but personally.
One particularly life-altering moment came when a close friend expressed romantic feelings for her, leading Molly to her own recognition of her sexuality and catalyzing a deeper unraveling of her former life.
The Illusion of Control
Throughout the episode, Erica and Molly explore the role of control—how it masquerades as safety, and how it actually keeps us from joy. Molly shares candidly about the anxiety that can accompany even moments of rest, and the challenge of learning to be instead of constantly do.
For both women, yoga and mindfulness have offered new frameworks for self-care—not as another item on the to-do list, but as a practice in letting go.
Art, Joy, and Reclaiming Creativity
For Molly, reclaiming creativity has been essential. What once felt like a side project is now central to her identity. Writing, music, and art are not just outlets—they’re lifelines. They represent joy, presence, and connection to self.
Erica chimes in with book recommendations that have helped her rethink productivity and rest, including the permission to find pleasure in everyday moments—even when the world says otherwise.
Embracing Vulnerability and Living Authentically
At the heart of this episode is a call to authenticity. Molly shares how being open about her journey has enriched her relationships and brought her closer to the people who matter most. Vulnerability, she reminds us, is not a weakness—it’s a superpower.
Whether it’s coming out, leaving a structured role, or pursuing creativity, Molly urges listeners to explore who they truly are and to embrace the messy, beautiful process of becoming.
Where to Find Molly’s Work
Listeners can find Molly’s book, Magic in the Mess, online or through local independent bookstores. Molly gives a shoutout to a few favorites, including Stay Gold Bookstore in Pittsburgh and The Bookworm in Edwards, Colorado. Supporting indie bookstores is just one more way to live in alignment with your values—and discover a little magic along the way.
Want more conversations like this?
Subscribe to the Two Piers Podcast for honest, real-world conversations about identity, leadership, and building a life that’s truly your own.