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Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and we've got Dr. Anthony Luévanos back for part three of our series. Today we'll be talking about giving and receiving feedback a skill that is challenging even for the best of us. So, Dr. Luévanos is a Two Piers coach and is a reflective practitioner, guiding leaders into important issues of giving and receiving feedback with humility and openness, both being essential for growth trust and authentic leadership.
Erica D'Eramo 0:52
I'm always grateful to have these conversations with Dr. Luévanos. He's a great thought partner, a great coach, and we're glad to have them back on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining well.
Dr. Luévanos 1:05
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This is so much fun for me. It's just like the highlight of the month, or whenever we get to do these. And the topics are so fun, so critical to, you know, work, life and just, it's just so fun, so much fun. So I appreciate you having me on.
Erica D'Eramo 1:25
Yeah, I think you also provide such a good counterbalance to to my engineering brain, and you bring the research, and you bring that, that different academic perspective and a different type of real world that you've navigated throughout your career, a little different than the steel toed boots element, although I know you, you you've been on a construction site plenty in your life and in your work as well, but yeah, you really do bring a nice compliment to to some of the experiences that I've had. So thank you.
Dr. Luévanos 1:57
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo 2:00
So this concept of feedback is always such an interesting one to me, because when we talk about feedback, usually when clients want to focus on feedback, it's on, it's simply on giving feedback. And the irony is that it's that goes both ways.
Dr. Luévanos 2:19
Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's so crazy, so interesting how, depending on what industry you're in, the culture around giving and receiving feedback. I mean, your experience in the field would definitely differ from mine. Only Well, partially because there are state mandates that abide by within, within our respective, you know, local education sites and so when we give feedback, we're, I mean, those become state documents that have to get filed and cannot be destroyed and have to be kept for certain number of years. And are, you know, can be called into you know question, if you're you know, somebody files along...
Erica D'Eramo 3:19
Dispute.
Dr. Luévanos 3:21
So it's just, it's, it's, it's a little different. I mean, maybe, maybe not, and I don't know. I mean, I think your industry is, is very interesting, and how that works.
Erica D'Eramo 3:32
I mean, I think that, yeah, that raises the stakes even more, probably, when it's all documented so much, I think that most organizations do have some sort of formal, bi annual, or at least annual feedback cycle, where stuff does get documented, but the quality, quantity, regularity, timing, all of that, yeah, is is definitely variable. And while the stakes might not seem as high as what you just mentioned, I do think that folks don't always realize how that feedback will be used, what it means, and we don't know until, kind of until the disruption happens, perhaps, or somebody is not thriving and they're not excelling, and we wonder why. So I guess, like, what is in your point of view, what is the criticality besides the documentation requirements? What's the criticality of feedback? Like, what makes this conversation important for us to be having?
Dr. Luévanos 4:45
You know, I think it's the the growth aspect, being able to, like, on the one side, as you mentioned earlier, being able to give feedback, you know, even, even in the small things that. You think about, like, tone, tenor, pitch, and then the content of what you deliver, and then the, what is it, the concept of being kind versus being nice, you know, it's always that way. I mean, because it's all it's all intent, you know, and you have to be intentional about it, and you have to measure what you say. I don't know. What comes to mind is giving feedback that is actionable and giving feedback that is going to, again, speak to maybe, you know, depending on where you are in the organization you know, going to address the program or department area goals and objectives, you know. And then overall, the organizational vision for where those you know, where that organization is headed, but that's you know, you know. And on the other end, it's just the individual growth. I mean, it's like a trip to the dentist's office, you know, like you have to, you have to do it. And you know, sometimes it's a great visit. And there's really, you know, you know, not the sting you know, but sometimes it's pointing out the spinach in your teeth and making sure that you know it, whatever needs to be as addressed in a manner that can be, you know, like edifying,
Erica D'Eramo 6:28
Yeah!
Dr. Luévanos 6:28
Like a coach...
Erica D'Eramo 6:30
I mean, well, I mean, I love that. I love that example, because not going to the dentist doesn't mean that the cavities aren't there and aren't going to cause you pain. It just makes it much worse when you put it off and you end up with a root canal instead. So I think it's a perfect example, because so often leaders, and this is not just about leaders, because I hope that anyone who's listening to this who thinks, Well, I don't have direct reports, I don't have to give feedback, I would definitely just we have to give feedback to our peers, we have to give feedback to our partners, we have to give feedback, sometimes, to our managers. And so being able to give feedback and not avoid the conversation is critical, regardless of how many direct reports you have. But I think that often I hear a refrain around, you know, I don't want to deal with the conflict. What if it What? What if the side situation goes sideways? What if the conversation goes sideways? What if they react poorly? What if it hurts their feelings? Sometimes it's really driven from like a place of empathy, which I appreciate. I do appreciate this sentiment, and yet the irony is, whenever I ask that leader, like, would you want your leader to withhold feedback because they were afraid of hurting your feelings every single time, the answer is resoundingly No, and in fact, like they might even feel disrespected if they felt like that was happening, right? It's just, in many ways, being able so if folks are listening and they want to take one thing away from it, from this conversation, I think it's probably this, being able to give good quality feedback is a show of respect, full stop.
Dr. Luévanos 8:24
That's good.
Erica D'Eramo 8:25
I mean even, and I would even say denying people the opportunity to know where they stand and to address it is perhaps a sign of disrespect, because everyone that we are working with in the professional realm is an adult, right? They are there because they have a skill set, because they wanted to grow, because they have developed themselves. They have worked hard, they've put themselves through school. They've achieved credentials and milestones, and so they've done that because they've been able to get feedback, not just feedback from humans, but like from the environment, from making mistakes, from from learning hard lessons. So let me pause there. What are your thoughts when I say that?
Dr. Luévanos 9:18
Well, I was thinking of just, you know, asking, you know, or just this questions, like, Well, whenever I do get feedback, what do I, you know, what do I have to keep in mind? And so I was just, what do you what do you keep in mind? Like, what are the things that you like, best practices that you employ whenever you're giving feedback?
Erica D'Eramo 9:40
Yeah, I mean, sorry, that was cat in the background. Cats are actually not interested in feedback. I'll mention that they do not need feedback. They are not seeking affirmation of our respect for them, but our employees and our. Colleagues are. So I think that sometimes literally naming that thing out loud and just putting a name to it can be so powerful, especially if we feel like the person we're about to give feedback to is not feeling particularly receptive, and maybe is feeling quite vulnerable or or perhaps they've had experiences in the past where the feedback has not been delivered in a respectful way, or has not been delivered in a constructive way. And so naming the thing out loud, you can even say, like, hey, it's never comfortable to have this is, this is when the feedback is constructive, right? Where there's a gap, or there's, um, there's maybe a performance issue or an expectations issue. So I think that saying the thing like naming the elephant in the room, that these conversations are never particularly comfortable, and yet I would be doing you a disservice if I withheld it simply because I didn't want either of us to be uncomfortable, right? So I owe you the opportunity to discuss this, and I want to know your thoughts as well, like I'm going to give you my perspective, but I want to know your thoughts as well, because we only have part of the we only have part of the story, right? We have our story, but retaining that humility and that curiosity, I think, can really bring down the tension overall, and setting a really clear goal of the outcome being for us to get to a place where you feel you're able to achieve these expectations, where we have clear expectations, and you feel empowered and able to achieve them. And people want that, right? They want they want that, as long as it's not just like a one sided conversation, right?
Dr. Luévanos 11:58
Yeah, and I love that, because essentially what you're doing when you're giving feedback is kind of like handing somebody a treasure map. I mean, like an adventure, you know? You're basically saying, Hey, I see the hidden potential in you, and I'm handing you the clues to find it. And yes, sometimes it's a bit like saying you've got, like I said earlier, you got some smashing your teeth, but that's actually a favor, you know. And so when it comes to giving feedback, those of you that are just thinking, I can't, you know, I can't get past my anxiety, and what's about to happen, you're not just delivering a performance review. Just think of it that way. You're basically being a growth buddy, you know, the golden
Erica D'Eramo 12:39
Yeah,
Dr. Luévanos 12:39
Be honest. And to be kind, imagine you're giving someone a compass and not a slap on the wrist.
Erica D'Eramo 12:46
You know, right? And they say, like the platinum rule is to so this is, this brings a good piece, right? The golden rule like to treat others the way you would want to be treated, and the platinum rule is to treat others the way they would want to be treated. So that actually prompted. That's a reminder, too, that we can ask people how they want to receive their feedback, and we can adapt based on what we know about them. So some people, they like that band aid ripped right off right just give it to me straight, Coach!, Just tell me how it is, and I'm gonna go fix it. Other people maybe want a gentler approach. Want more open ended questions and exploration, so checking in with people about like how they want to have that conversation, how they like their how they like their feedback delivered, and maybe even asking them to reflect on, you know, when have you had feedback delivered in a way that felt supportive and, you know, like, constructive feedback delivered in a way that felt supportive. What were the commonalities there that I should know as your as your manager and a leader in the organization, and then adapting? And, yeah, that can be tough, but that's like, that's what leaders get paid for.
Dr. Luévanos 13:58
Yeah, and you know, it can sometimes for those of you on the other end, you know, you know, thinking or thinking about this on the other end, you know, receiving feedback can sometimes, I mean, just depends on the year the quarter. You know, receiving feedback can be like handling a porcupine, but that's just proof that people care about you and they want you know. They're not trying to trick you, or anything like that. They're trying to grow you into the person that you can be. But the trick is, stay curious. Stay curious when you're receiving feedback, if it's not what you foresaw, you know, think of feedback as a puzzle piece. You know, you're just trying to figure thing. You're just trying to figure out where it fits.
Erica D'Eramo 14:44
So I think that that's an interesting concept, because actually, let's face it, there's a reason we're talking about how to give feedback and what we should what we should be doing as leaders at you know, even, even as unofficial leaders and giving feedback. And that's because a lot of people do not do it well. They do not feel comfortable with it. So when we're receiving feedback, I think we can recognize that the person giving us the feedback might not be very skilled at giving feedback. They might not be giving quality and sometimes, let's face it, I mean, I want to believe that everybody has good intentions, but I've I have experienced feedback that did not have good intentions, right? I have experienced very confusing feedback or feedback that was very biased one way or another. And so there are things that we can do on the receiving end to help ensure that we are getting something actionable out of it, that we are and so first of all, I would say, before we even get to how to receive feedback, if you're a manager and you're giving feedback, please make sure that you have checked yourself for biases. Please check that if that you would give the same type of feedback to other people. So we we've heard, we've seen study after study that shows that women get feedback about their personality. They get less actionable feedback, they get less timely feedback. They are deprived of feedback more because people are worried they're gonna cry or react poorly, or they'll be more sensitive. So you know if you were to, if you were to take that, if you can look at the feedback that you're putting in somebody's written annual report and and you can tell, without any identifying information, if that was being given to a woman or a man based on the tone and quality of the feedback and what it's focused on, maybe, maybe reflect on that a little bit. It should be measurable. It should be actionable. It should span technical elements, and you should be able to point to what good would look like. So like being more personable is not a thing. Don't know what that means. Tell me what more personable means. And tell me if you're giving that feedback to the men in the organization too.
Dr. Luévanos 17:10
Yeah, for sure. And you know, in my experience, you know it does, it does make a difference. You know, checking your ego, checking your biases you know at the door, ensuring that you're not vague. Because you know, even when you're leading organizations that are 100 plus employees, you know you you still have to model giving feedback so that the folks that you have entrusted to supervise other employees under you. I mean, it's something that you do have to be intentional about, and not allow yourself just to think, well, you're they'll figure it out. It has to be, it's clear, constructive, and they have to see the critical issues within the organization, within the department, and make it relevant, so that people can use the feedback, and that it's not just a matter of, you know, just, hey, here's something that I thought, you know, I need to just check off the list and, you know, move on again. Your organization will suffer in the long run, if that's the kind of culture you create,
Erica D'Eramo 18:29
Yeah, 100% right? You have a feedback loop on any sort of process system. It's adjusting to the reality. And you are that feedback loop for many of the employees. I think the other piece that what your word, what your words there, just prompted me to think about, was around, kind of even the framing of it, so the relevance, tying it to the organization, not just because I said so, right, like, we're not this. You're not a parent. It's not this is not a child, and that dynamic can be really tricky. And none of us actually want children. Want children working for us, so actually tying it to the relevance for the organization, but then explaining like, what does good look like? What is the outcome that we're truly seeking here? Because people might have more creative ways of getting to that outcome. That's why coaching is so valuable, right? Because we actually go to the higher order goal and we figure out the most effective way to get there. So if it's, you know, a reduction in first aid incidents is the thing that we need to see, brainstorming and allowing your leaders, or your the members of your organization to take some ownership about how they get there, and not micromanaging or not adding a stylistic preference, you know, like, if telling people how to do their jobs as long as they're reaching the outcomes that are important. That's That's what matters. But I think that that framing of the. Is what we want to see. Can be so much more powerful than stop doing X, Y and Z. Like, even if there's a stop doing X, Y and Z, you can still flip it to instead of x, y and z, we want to see a, b and c. Like, this is what I need to see,
Dr. Luévanos 20:15
Yeah, yeah. And there's just less, less common perspective that I think it might be good for those of you that are kind of in the pipeline, you know, thinking about leadership opportunities and kind of moving up, and that's leading followers, leading leaders in the feedback loop. There's a huge payoff for leaders that have folks that they supervise that are kind of in the pipeline. And, you know, the reality check for you as a leader, you know, those of you that are out there is that leaders often live in a feedback desert. I mean, thoughtful leader feedback, you know, it keeps it keeps leaders grounded. And then there's a trust loop. You know, leaders that receive feedback Well, show humility, you know,
Erica D'Eramo 21:00
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 21:01
encourages more upward feedback, which improves decisions. And that demonstrates a little bit of that shared leadership system for the organization. It reminds everyone that leadership is a relational practice and not a solo act. So...
Erica D'Eramo 21:15
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 21:15
If you're aware of that. I mean, it's kind of, you know, called The Subtle Art of Leading up, you know, I mean, it's it matters, and I think leaders appreciate that, or great leaders appreciate that from the people that they supervise. Because honestly, what's, whatever is in your blind spot, you know, is just something that you just never considered. You know, those, those folks that are in the pipeline can be extremely
Erica D'Eramo 21:42
helpful. I had one leader who used to say, like, beware of the all green dashboard. And I'm sure I've said it on the on the podcast so many times, beware of the all green dashboard, because it probably means you're getting the info that you want to see and not the info that you need to see. And so I think that if leaders are not getting constructed, first of all, if they're not seeking out the feedback, that's probably a challenge. But if you're not getting, if you're never getting uncomfortable information, then that is a big indicator that you might have some blind spots. And if you if you think, well, that's their fault for not giving me that information. I would be very curious about how you've reacted to bad information or inconvenient information in the past, because, like you said, we have if you want the information, even if it's really inconvenient, if you want to retain even if it's inaccurate, right? Like, even if it's inaccurate, if you want to retain access to that information, then making the person feel that they've contributed in a valuable way by going out on a limb and providing it is a big step in that direction.
Dr. Luévanos 22:56
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo 22:58
Yeah...
Dr. Luévanos 22:58
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo 23:00
So, let's see we've talked about how to give feedback and some of the framings there. One thing I don't think we've mentioned that can be really important is, actually, you know, there's this theory, they call it, they use, a lot of people use, like, a curse word, which we're not going to use here, because we're going to keep it PG. But it PG, but the like the poop sandwich, right? So giving a good, giving some something good, and then the sandwiching the negative thing in between, and giving something good again. And it's one of my pet peeves, and, well, I'm curious to what have you heard this before?
Dr. Luévanos 23:46
Yeah, I've heard it, and it's so funny, because I think the training model that I was, that I was, yeah, that I was given was say something positive first, and then, you know, give them the negative. Or vice versa. I mean, I don't know, just dependent on the that particular week or the person or, you know, and I thought, you know, it does. It doesn't really make any sense. But I mean, just, I mean, when you're giving feedback, it shouldn't be the first interaction that you have, because that's what makes it so terrible, because, you know, they haven't seen you for, you know, six months or three months or nine months, and then all of a sudden, you're this person that shows up and wants to have a meeting. I'm going to give you feedback on your performance. I mean, there's no relationship. It inherently feels like I got you if you get any negative feedback. So. So, you know, you know, splitting that up like that. I mean, even if it is well intentioned and it's going to be really great feedback in your mind, you got to remember, you know, it's relational, and people will remember how you made them feel more than what you actually said. And so, yeah, if you want a very you know, if you want an organization that is has a conducive culture where people can thrive and also feel safe, you know, and have this trust, you know, if you haven't read it before, Trust Matters: Leadership for Successful Schools. I mean, it's not, you know, I know it's specifically for schools, but Dr. Tschannen-Moran really explores how you know the value of trust, and you know it kind of ties back to what you had said earlier. I mean, it does communicate respect as to how you you know if you give feedback and when you get feedback, but when, when you're on the receiving end, that also shows how much you value somebody you know with that you know that respect that goes along with it. Because if you don't have a relationship with that, what does that to me, that communicates you didn't really care about what I'm doing to this organization. I really don't matter. I'm just another cog to keep whatever product or service churning out or churned out so that I can, you know, stay employed, and that's all I care about. And there's no growth. The organization stagnates. You're having you got high turnover, because nobody really feels valued or connected or tied to the organization itself, and they don't, they don't, you know, they don't consider you a real leader. You're just their manager. And then get on a whole new set of circumstances.
Erica D'Eramo 26:52
I pray like I think that I always mentioned there should be no surprises in a year end feedback, right? That if there are surprises in the year end feedback, you haven't done your job as a manager, like, because feedback should be happening the whole year, you just simply document and provide the and like, have a structured conversation at those periods of time, but that should be happening in real time. And there are some leaders who will literally save up the points that they want to pick on in the year end feedback and write them down in a notebook or capture them as they go. And six months later, you're talking to somebody about like, oh, in that one meeting, you really like, let it go off the rails for that person could have been adjusting and adapting the entire time, and sometimes you've deprived yourself of the chance to understand the context that might have led you to a different perception or a different outcome, and instead, you've just had that perception that whole time. But I think that the the the other thing that you mentioned that ties to the quote, unquote poop sandwich, which is like, how people make you feel. The unfortunate part is that when we wedge the negative feedback in between two positives, we've completely negated any impact or power that the positives could have had. So finding a way to because people don't remember any of the positive feedback, we see it for exactly what it is when it's used as a buffer for the negative and we discount it entirely, right? Like, you did a great job on a, you messed up B, you did a great job on C, all we think about when we walk out of the room is not A and C and like, oh, they just threw those in there to make me feel better. It's B. But the reality is, it should be like, I want more of a and I want more of C. Okay, then another conversation where we work on what we need to strive for is we want less of B. So how, what do we need to do to close that gap for B, but really creating some sort of air gap between the two, can preserve the value of the A and C. And maybe you have the b conversation first, like maybe you have the construction constructive conversation first, you close the loop on that, and then you come back at a different point, and you and you have the A and C conversation, or even just split it up in the meeting itself. But I really think that, like people miss, they really miss out on all of the positivity that can come from the true recognition of what people are doing well.
Dr. Luévanos 29:38
Yeah, yeah, I would say that. And you know, going back to what you had said, I mean, it should, there's, there shouldn't be any surprises, as a matter of fact, whenever you had, whenever you talked about getting those, your employees kind of on board with this whole process. When you are receiving, you know, feedback from your employees, you know, kind of at the beginning of the quarter, beginning of the year, you know, you want to make sure that they're involved in the feedback loop, that they they themselves are, you know, kind of dictating the process as well. That's what we did. We would do this in education, and, you know, we would make an initial observation and just kind of say, Okay, well, what do you think happened? How did, how do you think things? And then, then that's when you're like, Yeah, I agree with you there. Maybe, maybe we can work on just pick two, or, you know two things that you would like to improve upon, and I'm going to look at those things, but I'm also going to give you some some some pieces that could be useful in building up to those areas that you highlighted. And I think inviting that because, you know, we're so often, you know, our employees, when they receive feedback, they never ask any questions, they just receive it, and it's kind of like, okay, well, that's the final word. That's all, you know, that's all we're, you know, that's all, it's all that is going to happen from this meeting. I got my annual I'm pretty much done, you know, yeah, hired, and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter now, yeah, and I filed in, you know, in the back of your mind, and then I'll just wait for, you know, the next you know person, you know, manager, or, you know, if managers change, or you know, I'll just wait for the next you know, evaluation. But you know, don't do that to yourself. You're missing out on a huge, huge opportunity when you don't ask questions and you don't
Erica D'Eramo 31:47
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 31:47
And you're stuck, you know, you're stuck in your emotions, you know, fear, the hurt, the shame,
Erica D'Eramo 31:54
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 31:55
Again, acknowledge, you know, acknowledge that you do need to work. Everybody has, has some work to do, and nobody, no employee, is going to show up, perfect, you know, perfectly executing every single item, you know, in the on the organizational objective list. It's just not going to happen.
Erica D'Eramo 32:15
And if you are, you're probably that's kind of boring, then you've topped out. Right? Like, knowing that that's it. You topped out. I so that's such a great point, because, on the one hand, yes, hopefully the manager, the leader, is the one asking for, like, check, you know, checking accuracy. You can say, here's what I've perceived. Where are my blind spots? What are you What was your perception of this? Where might I be wrong on this? Like, help me, you know, help me understand. So asking for that challenge, like, inviting the challenge. What's your perspective about the root cause of this? Like, if, if my observation is accurate, what are your thoughts on? Like, what's getting in the way? But even if that's not happening from the leader's perspective, just like we mentioned, there, there are skills that you can have in eliciting the feedback and sort of supplementing what might be missing from the manager and being really good at receiving feedback. So that's an excellent segue. And we and you can ask, or we can ask when we get feedback, we can ask without being judgmental or like without sounding defensive. If we think it's inaccurate, we can always say, Ah, I'm so glad you raised that that was not on my radar. Can you help me understand so that I can contextualize it? Can you help me understand where you've witnessed that and how you're measuring it, so when I adapt and adjust, I do it with that in mind, right? Like that can help me apply. And if the leader's like, I can't actually think of any instances right now, well, bingo. You just help the leader understand their own bias or their own like perception cap works, so yeah, so being eliciting the feedback, at being the one to ask, ask the questions, ask for so what? What are some best practices that you've seen that for people who are receiving feedback, if they are staying curious and they're asking questions, what are some of the best things you've seen?
Dr. Luévanos 34:25
Yeah, yeah. When I was thinking about it, I was thinking about metrics. You know, so often when we receive feedback, we don't ask about the metrics used to measure success. And you know, if you just sit there and you just are taking it all in, and you allow the emotions to get the best of you, then you've lost out on that big opportunity of asking, Okay, but what are, what are you measuring me by? Like, what for this position? What are the metrics being used? And where do you, you know, is there? A spectrum is there, you know, some kind of line or, you know, number that you're looking for, so that you can actually know how to set up your goals, you know, for the quarter, for the year, because that's, that's how you know you're going to achieve them. So again, what are the metrics? What's the time frame for improvement? I mean, it just like where, you know, when will there be a check in on progress? I mean, so often we leaders leave it off. I mean, they just, kind of, they kind of say, well, you know, I didn't think about that, yeah. I mean, I didn't know that I was gonna I didn't think about checking on progress. I just thought, you know, I just, I knew I'll have to get this annual review done. So, I mean, you're the first person that it's asked me. You know that you know about a progress check? Yeah, honestly, sometimes leaders are just disconnected a little too much, and as leaders, we do need to check in on the progress of those individual employees, to see their progress, and also, just again, as a receiver of feedback, think about when you want to check in. Don't wait for them to just be visited on you make a calendar. Make sure you're asking your supervisor Hey, when you know, when can I, when can we have a conversation about my progress? I mean, that will floor your leader. And if you're out there and you're looking for a promotion, trust me, that right there, as an you know, as an employee, and as a former, you know, as a leader, I guess in an organization you'll you want that from your employees. You want someone who is keeping you accountable to what you said you've committed to, essentially, and that's developing your employees. Because when you develop your employees, you're partnering with them, and that's a partnership in the organization that can flourish and improve that organization's performance overall,
Erica D'Eramo 37:03
Yeah, I think that, um, that part around, like, how are we measuring this? How will we know can be such a powerful conversation, and this is where, if you're, if you are in coaching, this becomes, like, part and parcel of every coaching conversation, right? Like, how will we know for the coaching engagement if we've reached our getting really, really clear on problem definition, getting clear on what makes it important? Like, all of these things make you better at eliciting better feedback and end at giving better feedback and setting better goals. But that part of we can. We can manage upwards when we get vague feedback, you know, I will we just, we need you to be like a brighter presence in the office. Okay, how will we know? How are we measuring that? And again, sometimes we don't ask that. In order to truly get the answer, we ask that because if the answer is, oh, actually, it's just my total perception of how I'm feeling that day, that awareness for the leader can help. Can help focus this, refocus the conversation on things that are actionable, that are impactful. I do, I think, though, that it's we are all humans, right? And sometimes, even if the feedback, regardless of whether the feedback is accurate or not, it can be very vulnerable to receive feedback. It can elicit a lot of emotions, and emotions that we might even feel shame about feeling because whatever, why do I even care what this person thinks about me? I hear that a lot from clients like, why am I so upset about this? I don't even care what they think about me. But I do think that it can be helpful to remember that we probably care. Because ultimately, this is important for some for some valid core reason, right? Either we want to be seen as professional. It's part of our identity. We want to be a good colleague. You know, all of these elements we associate ourselves with, being an achiever and an A student and gold star and all of those things. So it's okay to feel some emotions. We can acknowledge them, say thanks emotions for signaling to me that this is important and and then be present and curious.
Dr. Luévanos 39:31
Yeah, and, you know, and go through it in your head. I mean, I often try to visualize what's going to happen in a feedback session before I go into, you know, the office or have a sit down with with an employee or colleague. You know, it just depends. And you know, remember, you know, visualizing how that person may respond and and also, you know, one thing that you made me think about, you know. Is, you know, consider, consider that that background of that employee, I mean it, you know, like, I guess what's so near and dear to my heart is, you know, when, when people are transitioning into the workforce that have been out, out of the for such a long time, you know, like, and I think about, you know, like, stay at home moms, you know, that have been outside of the workforce for any period of time, and they're transitioning in, you know, just remember, you know, employee background. That's why I always emphasize relationships. I mean, you know, it's, it's so essential just to know one employee and to give the kind of feedback that really touches on those nodes, you know, of growth in a way that connects with them and gives them some kind of autonomy for that, for that growth to happen, you know, inviting them in to that, you know, into The space of making a plan you know for themselves to grow. You know if you're in an industry now, again, not all industries are created the same, and I completely acknowledge that. But when you can, if you are in a situation or within an organization or an industry that can accommodate that, do it? Remember, we're remember. You know, really, who is going to push you in terms of performance? It's your it's your employee base, those that you supervise, your colleagues. You want to create an organization that is generative of that performance that you're looking for?
Erica D'Eramo 41:39
Yeah, I think that's why it's so important that we handle it well on both sides of it, that the manager handles giving the feedback well, and that those of us receiving the feedback, even if we don't agree with it, even if it's delivered in a disrespectful way. I'm not saying to lie down and take it. There are ways to handle it, but making sure that we don't close the door to getting the feedback in the future is probably going to be the most beneficial for us, because as soon as it goes underground, or it gets triangulated, or we, you know, people are like, Oh, last time it was just, you know, that conversation was so stressful with that employee, I just don't want to do it again. So they're less likely to come early and often with the constructive feedback, and then we just lose sight of it. We lose the data, and whether the data is accurate or not, it's still valuable to us, we still then understand at least that's how we're being perceived, that's going to impact us in positive or negative ways. So keeping that door open, retaining access to the information is almost always going to serve you better than not. That does mean, though, that we have to have a filter for what we do with it. Then just because we get the feedback doesn't mean we need to adapt to it immediately. Sometimes we say, Huh, well, isn't that interesting that they think that or they see that? Okay, now, what like?
Dr. Luévanos 43:03
Yeah, yeah. You know, a couple of things or something to remember. I really like this, 54321, technique. You know, if you start feeling yourself when you're receiving feedback, take it. Take a second. Ask if you need, if you need to, you know, if you need to take a breather or go take a bathroom break to just absorb and process and follow up with some some questions. Do that, okay? I mean, yeah, you're doing yourself a huge service. Because sometimes, you know, there are just certain emotions, and we are all working on our you know that emotional spectrum, you know, anger, frustration, you know it just those things. Just sometimes our work, because we get so passionate with what we're doing, they trigger us. If someone says you're not doing such a great job, and depending on who that person is that's delivering and how they deliver, but give yourself, you know, give yourself some grace. Take a breather, take a bathroom break. Don't feel Don't, don't, don't be afraid to ask for those things as you're receiving the feedback, and then come back, you know, more level headed and ready to engage with some questions so that you can better understand that. And you know, on the other end, for leaders, allow that space for them to process this stuff, because, you know, this is some of, some of the stuff that you have to offer, it could be really heavy for your employees. I mean, again, the ideal situation is that they don't your employees don't bring, you know, they're outside into the organization. You know that what their outside stresses are, but that inevitably happens and they're bringing stuff with them.
Erica D'Eramo 44:40
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 44:41
They just need a sec, let them process. It's, you know, it's okay. It's not going to ruin, you know, the day it may, it probably will even help that interaction go even better.
Erica D'Eramo 44:53
Yeah, building those, building those good interactions, putting it's like each one is a vote for a more positive. Of trusting relationship. But for folks who don't know the 54321, technique, let's see. It's five things you see, right? So this is just, this is for emotional management, and it can be good in any high stakes conversation. It can be great before you take the stage for a TED talk, if that's something you're going to do or presenting, you know, to the C suite, or whatever that is. So it just brings you back into your body and helps to regulate that nervous system. So it's, it's just noticing in your environment, five things that you see, four things that you can touch, three things that you can hear, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste. And then, you know, book ended by a breath on each side. And that sounds like a lot, but you can do it pretty quickly. You can do it in like, a few seconds once you become Yeah, used to that practice, so, yeah, good, good, good, catch.
Dr. Luévanos 45:53
And I don't advise smelling salts.
Erica D'Eramo 45:56
No. I mean, sometimes the one thing you can smell is not pleasant. I mean, it's okay, it's not about it's not about pleasantness, it's about being grounded in your body. But yeah, I think ultimately, if we just remember all information is useful information, even when it's not accurate, then we can work towards accuracy and understanding what what would be more accurate.
Erica D'Eramo 46:22
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos 46:25
I think we covered a quite a bit of ground. What do you think?
Erica D'Eramo 46:28
I think we I do think we covered quite a bit. And for those folks who are listening and thinking that they want to get better at providing feedback, or maybe just notice that, like giving feedback takes it out of them. They're exhausted. They're definitely not looking forward to the end of your feedback conversations that are probably starting to happen right around now, feel free to reach out, Anthony or myself. We would love to have a chat, and even if it's just not in the context of coaching, just to chat, we can, I'm sure, we can help reframe that and get you back on track for giving feedback, and vice versa, right? If you're receiving feedback and it's not good feedback, we can help you.
Dr. Luévanos 47:16
And guys, if you don't have Erica as your coach, you're missing out.
Erica D'Eramo 47:20
Oh, I do think we're in tis the season. This is a very common conversation in a lot of my in a lot of my coaching conversations right now, and for better or worse, right now, the two piers coaching roster is pretty, pretty full. So yeah, if you, if you want to schedule a conversation, I would say, get on the calendar sooner. If there's any spots left, I don't even, I don't even know, actually, I think I might start coaching at 7am but anyways, Anthony is always a pleasure to have such a great thought partner. Thank you so much for having us chat.
Dr. Luévanos 48:03
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Erica D'Eramo 48:05
And for folks who are listening. If you want the the summary of this episode, you can head on over to the Two Piers podcast. Two Piers website, where you can find the player, or you can read through a little summary of this episode. So thanks for joining us and we will see you next episode.
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The Power of Feedback: Why It’s a Discipline, Not a Drive-By with Dr. Anthony Luévanos
In this week’s episode of the Two Piers Podcast, we continue our series on giving and receiving feedback with Dr. Anthony Luévanos, exploring why feedback is one of the most underleveraged tools for organizational growth, and one of the most emotionally loaded.
We dig into what gets in the way of meaningful feedback, why discomfort is not a valid excuse for withholding it, and how both leaders and employees can build healthier, more intentional habits around feedback, not as a one-off performance event, but as a core leadership skill.
Feedback as Culture, Not Performance Management
Too often, feedback is treated like a dental visit, avoided until something is on fire. Dr. Luévanos shares examples from education, corporate, and public sectors where mandates or culture force feedback to exist, but rarely ensure that it is helpful.
We talk about the inconsistency most employees experience, where quality varies by manager, timing is unpredictable, and intent is not always clear. When done well, feedback is not corrective, it is directional. It helps people understand not just where they are, but where the organization is asking them to grow.
The Responsibility of the Leader
One of the biggest misconceptions we challenge in this episode is that feedback is something leaders only give downward.
We emphasize that strong leaders give feedback to peers, to partners, and even to their managers. It is not about authority, it is about shared responsibility for collective growth.
And withholding feedback because it might be uncomfortable is not kindness. It is disrespect. It treats the other person as fragile or incapable of growth.
Best Practices for Giving Feedback
We explore simple but essential practices, including:
Name what you are seeing without dancing around it
Stay rooted in humility and curiosity, because feedback is not indictment
Adapt to the individual, including their preferences, past experiences, and processing needs
Treat it as a treasure map, not a performance review, because feedback is a map to future potential, not a verdict on past imperfection
We also talk about the power of asking for feedback proactively, modeling what receiving with openness actually looks like.
Receiving Feedback When You Did Not Ask For It
Receiving feedback requires as much discipline as giving it. Dr. Luévanos reframes it not as judgment, but as data, an indicator of where expectations may or may not be aligned.
We discuss the importance of asking about the metrics or lens your performance is being evaluated through, clarifying expectations early instead of reacting late, and understanding that all feedback, even when imperfect, is information.
Navigating the Emotional Side
We explore how emotional reactivity can derail even well-intended feedback and share grounding techniques like the 54321 method to regulate in real time.
Leaders, in particular, have a responsibility to create safety for processing, not demanding instant defensiveness or agreement. Sometimes the most respectful response in the moment is simply, thank you, I would like to sit with this and follow up.
Final Thought
At its best, feedback is not about correction, it is about direction. It is an act of respect, an act of trust, and a powerful accelerator of growth when practiced with consistency, humility, and care.