Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello and welcome to the two piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have guest Celeste Warren joining us. Celeste is a diversity and inclusion consultant, leader, speaker and published author with nearly 40 years of experience in major global corporations. She helps individuals and organizations understand true equity, providing aha moments and debunking myths. She's here to talk to us today about the truth about equity, how it's good for leadership, good for management, and good for business. I Erica,
Erica D'Eramo 0:45
Hello, Celeste, thanks so much for being on the podcast. It's great to have you here.
Celeste Warren 0:49
Well, thank you for the invitation. Erica, I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo 0:53
Yeah, I'm really excited for this conversation, because there's lots swirling in in the spheres that we operate in regarding equity, and I would love to debunk some myths and really get clear on what we're talking about when we talk about equity and how it's it's not just good for individuals and humans, but also good for business, good for the bottom line, and good for sustainability.
Celeste Warren 1:17
Very much so all of those things and more.
Erica D'Eramo 1:21
Yeah, so what's your story? Kind of who is, who is the Celeste we're talking to today, and what brought her about?
Celeste Warren 1:28
Well, the Celeste you're talking to today is a kid from a small steel mill town in western Pennsylvania. I was brought up by my parents. My dad was the first black teacher and principal in the in the region, and my mom was the CEO and COO and CFO of our household. And it was a it was a opportunity to see firsthand at the dinner table every night what diversity, equity and inclusion was all about. My dad would come home from from school, and my mom would say, hey, you know, honey, how was your day? And then he would proceed to tell us, you know, what some of his challenges were by being the first and then not just what his challenges were, but how he overcame them, what he did, what strategies he put in place. And so that was a big part of my growing up, and I got a first row seat of Equity and Diversity and Inclusion at its finest. I My first career was actually a reporter. I was actually a reporter. I went to the University of Kentucky on a volleyball scholarship and worked as a reporter for a few years and just wasn't making enough money. And I got tired of writing home and calling home my parents to say, Mom, can you help me with my rent? Or can you help me with this? Help me with pay bills? Because it was embarrassing. I'm supposed to have graduated and, you know, adulting and and having had to write home. So my older sister talked me into going back to school. She said, if you want to change careers, go back and get your Masters and then you can figure it out. You got. Got some time to figure it out. And so I went back to school and got introduced to the field of human resources, the vast disciplines within it, and started did an internship at General Foods back then in White Plains, New York, and got hired after I graduated and went back to New York and New Jersey area and started working there. Worked for them for about nine years, and then Merck came a calling, and I've been I was at Merck for 28 years, the last 10 years as the chief diversity and inclusion officer until I retired this past July, and now do consulting. I launched the book The truth About Equity and and I do speaking engagements as well.
Erica D'Eramo 3:53
So when I mean, I feel like this is a topic that's received a lot of attention and discussion lately, and a lot of people shifting their language. So I do really appreciate that we're not like, we're not using euphemisms or change, you know, like changing the language, but meaning the same thing. So what do you wish folks understood right now about the concepts of diversity, equity and inclusion strategies at this time like this, this moment in our cultural zeitgeist.
Celeste Warren 4:26
Yeah, I wanted to write this book because, you know, I'd done a lot of work in diversity, equity and inclusion, not not just in the time that I was the chief diversity inclusion officer, but before then as well. And so I wanted to use my platform to be able to debunk the myths about equity, what it truly is and what it isn't. And the the main point that I want to say is equity is not about preferential treatment of. One group over another. And the analogy that I use in the book is the Deloitte Illustration, where you see there's three illustrations. In the first illustration, all of the there's three individuals, and they're standing on one rock, and there's a fence in front of them. The person on the right can't see over the fence. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence, but they're all standing on one rock, and that's an example of equality, because you've given them all the same thing, but they still, some of them still, don't have access to see over the fence. And in the middle illustration, the person on the right has been given two more rocks. He has three rocks, and he can see over the fence. The person in the middle has two rocks now, and they can clearly see over the fence. The person in the left still has the one rock because they were always able to see over the fence. And what's happening this work around equity, the person who was standing on one rock in both the first and the second illustration, well, they're looking to their right. In my analogy, they're looking to their right, and they're saying, well, that person has three rocks and they have two, and I just have one. That's not fair. How is that equitable? And what they don't understand is that that sense is there, and in my analogy, that sense represents all of the isms, the longer term challenges that face, that we face in society and institutions and organizations that I call them the isms, racism, sexism, homophobia, the things that are done to persons with disabilities, all of that. And so what we have to do is not just put the acts of equity in place, put the rocks in place so everyone can see over the fence. But at the same time, we have to tear down the fence, and that takes a longer term strategy and harder work. And then we also have to go to that person that's standing on one rock and say, here's what what you need to understand that fence is there. Here's how it manifests itself to the people on the right in all of those different aspects and behaviors that happen, you know, marginalization and disrespect and and all of those things that happen in the ISM phase, and not only helping them to understand but also making sure that we get them to be active allies, so they get in the boat, grab an oar and help us to row up the river. That's the work that needs to be done, because in the third illustration, which is why equity benefits everyone. The rocks are gone, the fence is down, and everyone can see the beautiful mountains ahead, and even that person that was standing on one rock, once they realize that there is a fence there and that fence is torn down, they see how it inhibited them as well, and how they have a wider aperture, and they can see more of the mountains in front. So that's the analogy that I like to use in how equity isn't about preferential treatment. It's about equal access, and giving people access to opportunities and whatever their aspirations might be.
Erica D'Eramo 8:10
Yeah, I think that that, like, what's in it for me, piece is so interesting, and having the penny drop moment where people realize, I mean, I would love for all of us to be motivated from a sense of comradery and justice, and that we want our fellow humans to have the most joyful experience and impactful experience on this earth. And also, like, I recognize that there is a part of our human nature that says, like, Oh, if I give up something. If somebody else is going to get something, I have to give up something. And sometimes that giving up is even just the status of being the the only one that can see over the fence. And so I think that sometimes people don't even realize that their attachment is to the fence, because that gives a level of perceived status, and it blinds to the fact that they could be getting a much broader view of things if we could get rid of the fence. Like, who's benefiting from the fence? Is always the question, right? Somebody's benefiting from the fence, and it's probably not actually you. This is like a perception without necessarily a lot of reality, that you're benefiting from the fence. They might be truly benefiting from the fence, from, you know, pay and equity, or access to opportunities that other people don't have. But in many cases, there's a price to the fence that people don't perceive.
Celeste Warren 9:32
That's exactly it. Erica, absolutely and, you know, and it's a tight rope that we walk those in the diversity, equity, inclusion space, anyone. I call them diversity and inclusion ambassadors that embrace it. There's a tightrope that you walk. And I remember having this conversation when I was in the CDO role, because if you you try to discuss and have a dialog, a productive dialog. Around the issues, because the tightrope is, if you start to play the blame game, or you start to really question someone's beliefs, you're questioning what grandma or mom and dad or Auntie said at the dinner table, you know, and something that they grew up with, beliefs, ideals, perceptions, whatever, whatever it may be. And so you you can't cross that line of attacking them, but you need to be able to have a productive dialog to say, here's kind of what my perception is, or what the I believe is happening in either the workplace or in this or whatever institution you want to talk about, and having a dialog that is grounded in facts, grounded in data, but also grounded In truth, and helping them to understand it without attacking their belief system.
Erica D'Eramo 11:05
Yeah, I think it's, I'm not interested in coddling, right? There is a piece here around like, well, we can't be coddling. We need to bring some tough truths, and also I recognize the corrosive impact of shame, and shame is one of the quickest ways to shut down curiosity and openness, and it's not very especially when folks don't feel like there's something that they can look to to actively change, right? If it's just like, if they if we say a lot of like, not that, not that, not that, but we aren't saying, but yes, this, this, this and this, then people are sort of left with not a lot of clarity about what they should be doing, and then that ends up kind of manifesting this, I don't know, cognitive dissonance, I guess, around like, well, if I don't know what to do, I'm just going to shut down the entire I'm not going to believe in this concept, because it's easier for me than to sit in shame or guilt about not doing something if I don't know what to do. And I think I see it a lot right now in the world, even with people who are really motivated for change, if they don't know what to do, we see sort of like a shutdown. So what? So then what is most effective like in that line of inquiry? A little bit what? What do you see that does work for people?
Celeste Warren 12:21
Well, what I like to do is it, and I have people that come up to me and they'll say, you know, this, this diversity, equity and inclusion thing, it's not for me. It doesn't think about me. It's not advantaging me. It's exclusive to me. And I always lead with, you know, I don't think you're, you know, I don't, I don't sort of challenge them right off. I just say, Okay, well, what makes you think that I ask questions? Well, what makes you think that, you know, why do you feel that way? And you know, you ask the five whys Right? Like a like a five year old, and by the time you get to that fourth, even the third, sometimes why they don't really have an answer for it, and the only answer is because that's what I know, or that's what I've heard, or that's what I grew up with believing. And so what I like to do is basically start to say, you know, different things. I'll give you an example. I was talking to a colleague a few years back, and they were talking about this whole thing around looking at skills first, as opposed to hiring someone for the four year degree, like you have to have a four year degree. And you know, lot of talent strategies now, they basically look at not just you have to have a four year degree, but you all you have to have a four year degree is optional, but these are the skills, the experiences and the different capabilities that we want you to have where you'll be successful in the role. And there was a conversation I was having with a colleague who was saying, Well, you know, that's just basically diversity in action. And I said, Well, why would you say that? And they said, Well, you know, you're lowering the standard because you're not you're saying that you don't need a four year degree to get this job, and forever you needed a four year degree. And I said, Well, I said, you know, there's been a lot of analysis on the job and what really is required for someone to be successful in the job. And it's not necessarily a four year degree. It's about their experience that they have with the with doing the skills and the capabilities, how they're able to demonstrate it, and I said, and by the way, we there's a war for talent, and if we don't make sure that we can get all of the labor market, all of the people who have the skills and capabilities that we need, then we are cutting ourselves off from a very. Very valuable labor market. And and I said, Oh, and by the way, if you're thinking that it's a diversity, equity, inclusion thing, it's not, because in the United States alone, that labor market that has does not have a four year degree, that's about 60 plus percent white men, and all of a sudden he was like, oh, oh, okay, wow. And so, you know, it's being able to say, here's the benefit, here's what it's about, and, and, and, oh, let me talk to you a little bit about the data and what it's shown. And when I when I was able to have that conversation with them again, not pounding my hands on the desk or screaming at the person, but just, you know, we're two adults having a conversation, but being able to throw that in in the mix, he basically just changed his whole perception of This skills first meant talent strategy.
Erica D'Eramo 16:01
Yeah, I always, I It's the concept of meritocracy is always so interesting to me, because it's like, well, who is measuring what? Who is deciding what we're measuring on? And if I wanted to start hiring interns and saying, but they need to be able to, like, I don't know, rub their belly and pat their head at the same time in order to work with me, sure if I've, if I am overwhelmed with applications and I just need some arbitrary filter to narrow it down, cool, I can throw that filter on there. But ultimately, like, how does that impact the ability to do the role? And it's really kind of from an engineering perspective, like, you know, I joke like, you could take the gal out of engineering. You can never take the engineering out of the gal. I'm always thinking about the systems, and what is the outcome we're truly like, what's the problem we're truly solving for? And in so many of these cases, it boils down to like, well, I earned it. Well, I deserved it because I did x, y and z, and this other person didn't do X, Y and Z, and ironically, sometimes I take a bit of a harsher approach, and I'm like, Cool, gold star A plus A for effort, you did a good job. But ultimately, what the team needs to be successful is a diversity of strengths. And so ultimately, I'm not that interested in getting all of the a plus students that got the gold star and deserve it if that's going to tank the outcome of the team. Because I do need some like blindside awareness. I do need some different perspectives. I do need some healthy conflict in the team in order to get to the best outcome. So fairness is an interesting concept, especially when we're looking at outcomes, because this is not just about we're not in school anymore. It's not just about, like, did you get an A plus? Yes, good job you did. Now that doesn't mean you, like, deserve the role on the team just because you had the 4.0 or just because you went to the most elite college. And I think that kind of flips it on its head, because a lot of times people talk about like, Oh, this is all, you know, people feeling like they're entitled to things when they're not. I'm like, Well, that's the that's a real ironic, isn't it? Who's the one feeling entitled? But I don't know, what are your thoughts around fairness? Like, what's Yeah, I'm sure there's a concept that comes up a lot for you.
Celeste Warren 18:23
Yeah, it does. And i My father used to say a fair is a place you go to watch livestock and eat funnel cake.
Erica D'Eramo 18:34
Oh, I love funnel cake.
Celeste Warren 18:38
And what he meant by that, especially, you know, like I said, being the first black man in this in the space of education, in that area, fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, it's important, but it's fair and equitable. Because what's fair to one person may not be fair to another person, as you just talked about it, the person who is is an elitist thinks that, well, they should get everything regardless, and to them that's fair, but to another person, that isn't fair. And so what we like to say is we want to get to I'm fine with the meritocracy as long as everybody has the ability to have access to those opportunities, to the education, to the etc, that allows for the best person to get the job. Because intelligence isn't just isn't a factor of your public education, your formal education. There are a lot of intelligent people out there that did not have the financial means to be able to go to the Ivy League schools or this school or that school, but they are highly, highly intelligent, and so, you know, we have to make sure that we're able to understand and say, Okay, what are the obstacles and the barriers that are getting in the way for this person? To reach this place and be able to understand that, and be able to say, Okay, well, what programs, policies persist, the systems, etc, do we need to put in place so they can reach this ultimate outcome? And in the in an organizational space, it's more about, you know, as I say, that equity is about good leadership and good management and also good business, but from a management and leadership standpoint, if I have I'm a leader of an organization, and I need to make sure that I can get all of these people, because diversity is just differences, differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. And I need to be able to understand and leverage those differences to get them to a collective purpose. And that's usually the the outcomes, the business performance, the mission, the vision of that organization. And if you don't understand those differences in people, if you don't understand what's getting in the way of your team being able to function through those individual people, then you're not going to be an effective leader. You're not going to be able to drive your business. And that's why it's just so very, very critical and very important that you understand that people understand that. And I keep saying this over and over again, because people seem to say you're giving someone preferential treatment. No. Joe is Jane different from Sally is different from Andre is different from this person that person. You need to understand those differences if you're going to be an effective manager or leader. That's management 101.
Erica D'Eramo 21:39
Yes, yes, yes. It's like, yeah, I totally agree. I sometimes use a salad analogy of like, if I'm gardening and I'm not very good at gardening, I have a lot to learn about gardening. But if I'm planting a garden and I want a boring salad with just lettuce, okay, fine. That's easy. That's not a very tasty salad. I would say, if I want to add in tomatoes or cucumbers or whatever, and those plants are not thriving, well, then I need to look at what I'm doing. Am I giving it the right acid, the right? I don't know, nitrogen, the right shade, the right, you know, am I timing it right into in terms of what I'm doing? Because ultimately, I want the salad that is not just boring lettuce. And the other piece too is like, maybe one year there is a blight, and the lettuce just doesn't thrive. Well, at least I've got some cucumbers and tomatoes that might thrive, like having diversity biodiversity. Having diversity in our team has always been a source of resilience, and not having that diversity has always been a source of vulnerability, like going all the way back through how organisms even adapt and thrive. So we would never be like, well, those tomatoes don't deserve a place in our salad because they require too much sunshine, and how dare they Right? Like, we just wouldn't do that. We would be like, Okay, let's put the tomatoes in the sunshine. Let's put the lettuce in the shade, and let's make sure that those cucumbers have some pollinators around, because otherwise I'm going to be out there a little paintbrush pollinating every morning. So you know, like that's what we would do, we would take a more curious, observant framework to see what does the system need to thrive if we can detach ourselves and our identity and our, you know, like self biases, yes, right? Like, if I think tomatoes are the most amazing thing, and anything that's not a tomato because I'm a tomato is like less than, well, maybe I'm not going to be as concerned with the lettuce and the and the cucumbers thriving.
Celeste Warren 23:39
I love that analogy. Love that Erica. That's perfect. That's perfect.
Erica D'Eramo 23:46
Yeah, I still haven't managed to get a good beefsteak tomato to thrive. So if anybody has ideas out there, let me know I can do the little guys, but
Celeste Warren 23:53
I don't want one to talk to. I am horrible. Horrible. My husband is excellent. The yard looks so beautiful in the summer and fall, but, yeah, if I touched it, it would be done.
Erica D'Eramo 24:05
You know, not to, like, beat a dead horse on this analogy. But I do think that for me, the big learning and I've always been achievement oriented, right? And so I think that that's maybe why I've resisted gardening, because what if I fail? What if my tomatoes fail? And I've had to reorient, just like my leadership skills reorient around like learning and adapting and saying, Ah, okay, that didn't work. Next time, what should I do? I can't talk to the plants to ask them, but we can talk to the humans in our organization and ask them what they need.
Celeste Warren 24:37
Absolutely, you know, there's a there's a study, and I can't remember which who did it, but there is a direct correlation to how frequently a manager meets one on one with his team members, and the level of productivity and the level of engagement and the trust. Forms with the team and the manager, and it's, you know, it's all about, just like I said, management, one on one, sitting there and talking with individuals. What do you need? You know, contracting with them, partnering with them, and saying, you know, what is it that you need? What's getting in the way from you being able to do your job, you know better from you being able to develop, from you being able to reach career aspirations that you want to reach. You know what is getting in the way? And let me help you to get those obstacles blown out of the way and get you whatever resources that you need.
Erica D'Eramo 25:36
Yeah, I think that there's this perception, at least in our society, that, like managers are supposed to have the answers. And so as a as a leadership coach, I so often encounter these challenges where people will say, I tried this, and I've tried this, and like, nothing seems to motivate these individuals. They're just lazy. Blah, blah, blah. Like, lazy is a tricky word. I don't know that I I even believe it exists. Maybe lacking motivation, might be one, one line of inquiry, but when I turn it back, though, and we come to the idea that maybe you're not supposed to know what these individuals need, and you have to ask them, because they are different than you. They have different needs. That seems to be as soon as people come to it, they're like, oh, shoot, yeah, I could just ask them, but it like, doesn't always occur. That we could just ask individuals and just, you know, if they're not performing to what we would expect, or we're not getting the outcomes that we would expect, the problem is not necessarily them. Yeah, a lot of times we default to, like, I've tried everything and nothing's working. Well, did you? Did you ask them what might work? And then it's like, oh, shoot, I could just ask them, right? They're humans. They can talk to us. It's not Lu it's not a tomato plant. And that, I don't know if that is like, seen as weakness or vulnerability, but I do wish folks could could detach from that idea that they have to have all the answers, and if they if the system isn't responding the way they would expect, then the system is broken. And maybe try to embrace, like you said, like touching base with people asking the open ended questions without judgment about, like, what would work.
Celeste Warren 27:17
Absolutely, you know, you know, you you've heard the whole thing around the pyramid and organizational structure. The leaders are only supposed to be know so much anyway, and they're supposed to be depending on the employees within the organization to understand and know what they're doing. And their role is to guide. You know, lead, here's the vision, and then, you know, from an operational standpoint, everybody knows how to do their job. It's just they need someone that's going to lead and provide a vision and to where they need to be. And, you know, a lot of leaders, they just don't understand that. You know, it's funny, you know, same thing that you said during the time of 2020, there was such around the time of murder of George Floyd in the in the the pandemic. And it's like, oh, you know, how am I going to lead? How I'm going to manage people? I'm not even seeing them on a day to day basis. And it's like, well, this is a global company. You weren't seeing people face to face, except for the guys and the gals that were around your office, your rest of your team, if your team is global, you weren't seeing them face to face anyway, every day. So how is this going to be changing how your management style? It really did shine a light on the inequities of people's management styles from a proximity standpoint, proximity bias, you know, and you know, being able to be they had to work really, really hard to demonstrate inclusive leadership, you know, from the standpoint of the virtual meetings and making sure that they're giving everyone an opportunity to to speak up, or if they don't feel comfortable speaking up, put your points in the chat and and, you know, reading the chat And talking about different points and acknowledging people's inputs. It was just the it just really shined a light on it. And then, from the standpoint of people during the May timeframe and the murder of George Floyd, they were like, Oh, I don't want to say anything. It was like this paralysis of leadership because they were like, afraid to say the wrong thing, and it's like, no, your silence is deafening. You just reach out, maybe text or talk to people, one on one. How are you feeling? You know, I don't have all of the answers, and freely admit that I don't have humility. You know, I'm here if you want to talk, I know how to listen, and I'm going to listen to you, and we can have a conversation and a dialog. Please feel free to reach out. But you know, that's all that that's needed sometimes, you know, but it was, it was an interesting time, and like I said, those folks that were naturally good leaders. Empathetic listeners, high IQ and EQ. They did a great job, but others, it shined a light on their challenges and areas for development as leaders. And it was really an interesting time.
Erica D'Eramo 30:17
This is where I get to, like, what are we measuring? Because I really feel there. I still hear it with all the return to office stuff, like, we I need people nearby. Otherwise, how do I know what they're working on? Well, if you don't know what the performance of your team needs to be, if you don't know the impact that your team is having without seeing butts in seats, like, if that's the closest analog you have to productivity, productivity of what is it just busyness? Is it just presence, or are you actually like, producing and doing things? And if that's the case, what does the proximity give you? What does time in the office give you, if it truly is giving you lots of like, touch points and ability to support people better? Great. I could see the argument for that. But if it's just like, the closest analog I have to the performance management of my team is time in desk seats, then I would say that that's a leadership gap. And that's like, maybe not being clear on what the impact is of your team on the broader organization, but I don't know that we're measuring that. And I'm about to, like, maybe I'm about to open a can of worms here, but there's a big conversation around I'm going to use a firefighting as a framework, like, how we evaluate firefighters, and a lot of times the evaluation is like, can you carry this super heavy dummy up a ladder, right? Like, can you do these very strength based activities and endurance based activity. I think that that all that might be very, very important for being able to be a good firefighter. Some of the things we're not necessarily measuring, though, is, How flexible are you? How can you coax a small child out of a enclosed space? How? How well can you perceive unspoken fears from like, somebody who's paralyzed by fear, like some of these other elements that probably are impactful to the ability to do the job, but we are fixated on this very narrow set, and maybe say the military. Right now, there's conversation about, like, the highest male standard. Okay, well, how about marksmanship? How about the ability to regulate your nervous system and control your blood pressure and control your heart rate under stress. Like some of these things are actually quite typically female strengths, but maybe we're not measuring for them when we say, you know, meritocracy. So I'm on a little bit of a tangent, but let me get your thoughts. What are? What's your...
Celeste Warren 32:37
No, I absolutely, absolutely think you're true. It's, you know, I used to say, oh, decades ago, that a lot of leaders and managers manage to this distribution curve, and they manage the top of the distribution curve, where, you know, 40 to 60, maybe 70% of the people are, and they forget about those people that are on the fringes. Now, fast forward 2025, years, 30 years, the people that were on the fringes. Now, from a demographic standpoint, they're up there in the top, you know, getting to that top of that circle. And you know, it's how do you understand them? So from a business standpoint, yeah, understanding your customer, understanding the customer base, understanding what it is that is getting in the way from them being able to enjoy the product or the service that you provide. And if you don't understand that as part of your basic foundational marketing strategy and sales strategy and how you go to market, you are missing out on huge, huge revenues, and so not understanding that, and thinking that, Oh well, you know, I'm still going to be managing to this, top of this distribution curve, which I'm assuming, because of my bias, is white Male, 40 to 60 years old, and you know in today's demographics globally, if you're a global organization, you have to understand and segment your customer base, and that means understanding them across all of the identities, across all the different dimensions of diversity that exist In people around the globe and and really study that. And that's basic that. Now that's basic 101, marketing 101, they used to call it, decades ago, multicultural marketing. And now it's just basic marketing. It you know that it's, it's, you can't succeed as an organization if you don't understand that,
Erica D'Eramo 34:42
I there have been, like, so many commercials, you know, where the afterwards, the debrief is like, oh, you know that there was, like, not a black woman in the room when they decided to move forward with that. I'm like, there might have been, but she might not have had a powerful, you know, like her voice might not have been elevated to the point that it needed to be in that conversation. Conversation. But yeah, some of these, again, it's to speak to not that, like resilience of diversity and the vulnerability of not having that, because you have more blind spots, you have more Achilles heels then. So I just briefly, I just want to touch on it, because I think it's been coming up a lot in my circles, in the coaching circles, and the consultant circles, certainly in the HR circles, um, what are your thoughts on the whole Sherm thing and and some of the decisions that they've made and pivoted in terms of equity? In particular.
Celeste Warren 35:38
I I, frankly, personally, I'm very disappointed. I really, really am. It's an HR organization, one of the largest HR organizations, that is about understanding the people, practices and strategies in organizations, and that means being able to make sure that you're reaching all of the people from an inclusion standpoint, and that means that you have to put acts of equity in place. And you know, the the reasoning back, I guess it was now it's going on a couple years now maybe of, hey, we're just not going to focus on equity, or we're taking that out, because it's just not working. And I can't remember what the excuse was...
Erica D'Eramo 36:22
Like, divisive. I think...
Celeste Warren 36:23
yeah, divisive...that doesn't it. That's like saying, Oh, well, we're not going to use this word because we're not going to use the word eating because it's divisive. But we all still know we have to do it in order to thrive. It's just the logic does this doesn't compute with me. And then, you know, I just feel that as an organization that is responsible for helping human resources, professionals and leaders develop strategies in organizations, that that's just a disservice I really, really do.
Erica D'Eramo 37:00
Yeah, yeah, I chose not to. I mean, for what it's worth, I chose not. I actually personally chose not to renew my SHRM membership, because it felt to me that if we're not going to be real in talking about this, then I can't really rely on the organization to be a thought leader in this space. So that was my own personal decision, and I put a lot into that, you know, I was a SHRM SCP certification so that, you know, even the exam itself, I think, like so many hours, but that was, to me, I need people to be talking about, like the reality of it, and not paper papering over or avoiding the challenging conversation. If we have a misunderstanding about what the term equity means, then we need to be having conversations like you and I are having. We need to be like, actually getting clear about what do we mean, rather than avoiding it and leaving it as like a landmine to uncover.
Celeste Warren 37:53
Yeah, it's just, you know, and you know, this year, last year, it didn't start with the current administration. It is actually saw this pendulum shifting probably as early as late 2021 going into 2022 and then we saw the Roe v Wade overturned and the the decision with Harvard and UNC and around the criteria used for administration of students. And we just started to see this starting to happen in this anti dei rhetoric, and it just reached this crescendo and just slapped us in the face this year. And so, you know, a lot of corporations, they're, they're, you know, thinking, and how do I approach this? What do I do? How do I do this? And pulling back and and some are pulling back, some are depleting in entirety, and others are just reshaping, kind of the nomenclature of what they're doing. But if you look at any of the studies, McKinsey, any of them, the CEOs, know that, as I was saying earlier, it's good for business. It's imperative for business. They have to understand their customers. They have to understand their the labor market. They have to understand all these different things that come with the differences that you see in people and and shareholders. Understand it too, because they're voting down a lot of these, yeah, these proposals. So, you know, there, there is still hope. I believe that wholeheartedly, and I think that you know this too shall pass, but we have to hold fast and steadfast. We have to put the truth out there as it exists and and help people to understand and open up the dialog in a productive way.
Erica D'Eramo 39:48
Yeah, those shareholders are not voting for simply like this isn't this? Is not just a sympathy vote or anything like that. They have, they've invested in these. Companies for a financial return. Like, I hate to boil it down to that, but they fundamentally see the financial benefit and the impact benefit of their, you know, their wealth, their wealth building by adhering to these policies. And so, yeah, I do think that ultimately it's a both and right. It's like these are, this is both the right and ethical thing to do and also the financially incentivized and wise thing to do. So absolutely. What would you say before we kind of close up for today or close out the conversation for today? What would you say? The key takeaway is that you would like listeners to walk away with, if there's one thing.
Celeste Warren 40:42
I would say, if there's one thing I'd like for the listeners to walk away with is helping them to understand that equity is not a dirty word. It is something that's needed for people to be effective managers, effective leaders, and being able to build trust in their organizations with the people that they manage and lead, and it's also good business sense so they can understand customers and be able to meet their needs as well.
Erica D'Eramo 41:11
Awesome. And for folks who loved this sampler that they got on the podcast and want to learn more, read more, where can they find you and your work?
Celeste Warren 41:22
They can go to my website, www.crwdiversity.com that's CRdiversity.com and I'm also on Instagram. It's CRWdiversity. And I am also going to be, soon to be launching a YouTube channel as well. So
Erica D'Eramo 41:45
Exciting,
Celeste Warren 41:46
Yeah, yeah. And LinkedIn, of course, under Celeste Warren, she/her. So there are lots of different ways, and you can get the book on Amazon. It's available, and also in bookstores around the globe as well.
Celeste Warren 42:01
Excellent. So we'll be linking to that in the show notes and on our website, and for anyone listening who would like to review the summary of today's episode, you can find that on the website along with those links. And we'll put a link to the book as well. We typically link to bookshop.org just so folks can support their local bookshops if they want to do that, but we will, yeah, we'll definitely make sure folks know where to find you. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your insights and just having a really good conversation.
Celeste Warren 42:31
Well, thank you, Erica for the invitation. I really, really enjoyed it.
Erica D'Eramo 42:36
Awesome. We look forward to seeing our listeners next episode.

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Equity Is Not a Dirty Word: A Conversation with Celeste Warren

In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo speaks with Celeste Warren, a veteran diversity and inclusion consultant with nearly 40 years of experience, about the real meaning of equity — and why it’s not the preferential treatment so many make it out to be. From her upbringing in a small Pennsylvania steel town to her tenure as Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at Merck, Celeste’s perspective cuts through the noise around DEI and brings the conversation back to what effective leadership really looks like.

From Steel Mills to Corporate Boardrooms: Celeste’s Journey

Celeste grew up in western Pennsylvania, where her father broke barriers as the first Black teacher and principal in the region. Her mother managed the household finances, modeling the quiet leadership and practical equity that shaped Celeste’s worldview.

After beginning her career as a reporter, Celeste transitioned into human resources and eventually joined Merck, where she spent 28 years driving systemic change and inclusive leadership development. Her story illustrates how deeply personal experiences can fuel a lifelong commitment to equity in action — not as a buzzword, but as a practice.

Understanding Equity — and What It’s Not

As Erica notes in the conversation, few topics in leadership spark as much confusion as equity. Many still equate it with favoritism or lowering standards. Celeste pushes back firmly on that misconception.

“Equity isn’t about giving some people more,” she explains. “It’s about removing the barriers that prevent everyone from having a fair shot.”

Using the well-known Deloitte illustration comparing equality and equity, Celeste emphasizes that identical treatment doesn’t yield equal outcomes when people start from different places. True equity requires dismantling the “isms” — racism, sexism, and other systemic barriers — that keep individuals from accessing opportunities in the first place.

The Human Resistance to Change

Erica and Celeste explore a tough truth: progress toward equity often feels threatening to those who have benefited from the status quo. People may interpret change as loss — of privilege, power, or comfort — even when the goal is fairness.

Celeste argues that the way forward lies in productive, fact-based dialogue, not shame or defensiveness. Shame shuts people down; data and empathy open doors. She shares how shifting one company’s hiring strategy from degree-based to skills-based criteria transformed both perception and access — a practical example of equity improving outcomes for everyone.

Redefining Fairness and Meritocracy

What does it mean to be “fair”? Celeste laughs as she recalls her father’s saying:

“Fair is a place you go to watch livestock and eat funnel cake.”

Fairness, she points out, is subjective. What feels fair to one person may look like advantage to another. Erica builds on this idea with a gardening analogy: diverse gardens — like diverse teams — are more resilient, adaptive, and healthy. In leadership, “fair” shouldn’t mean treating everyone identically, but rather giving each person what they need to thrive.

Equity as a Core Leadership Skill

Managing diverse teams isn’t about being nice — it’s about being effective. Celeste reminds leaders that equity is good management. Understanding your team members’ unique challenges and creating systems that allow them to contribute fully isn’t charity; it’s strategy.

Erica notes that in coaching, a simple but powerful question often reveals what’s missing: “What do you need to succeed?” When leaders ask — and act — on that question, they start to dismantle proximity bias and other subtle forms of inequity that undermine team performance.

The Business Case for Equity

Beyond ethics, Celeste underscores the economic argument: companies that prioritize equity outperform those that don’t. Removing barriers to inclusion expands the labor pool, improves customer understanding, and drives innovation.

As Erica puts it, “If we only measure success by who’s in the office, we miss the contributions that actually make the business work.” Celeste agrees — inclusion isn’t just a feel-good initiative; it’s operational excellence.

When Leadership Gets Hard

The conversation turns to recent years — the pandemic, social unrest, and shifting workplace norms. Both Erica and Celeste acknowledge how these moments tested leaders’ empathy and adaptability. The best leaders didn’t retreat; they listened, learned, and led with authenticity.

Empathetic leadership, Celeste argues, doesn’t mean weakness. It means seeing your people as whole humans and recognizing that systemic events affect individual performance. Good leaders know how to navigate that reality, not ignore it.

When Institutions Fall Short

The two discuss SHRM’s recent decision to step back from equity and inclusion — a move both view as regressive. Celeste expresses disappointment, noting that de-emphasizing equity signals a misunderstanding of what effective management requires. Erica echoes that sentiment, sharing that she chose not to renew her SHRM membership as a result.

For both, the message is clear: ignoring systemic barriers doesn’t make them go away. It simply makes organizations less equipped to lead.

Key Takeaways: Why Equity Still Matters

As the conversation closes, Celeste leaves listeners with a simple truth:

“Equity is not a dirty word. It’s what makes leaders effective, organizations successful, and workplaces human.”

It’s a reminder that the work of equity isn’t about politics or preferences — it’s about performance, purpose, and people.

To learn more about Celeste Warren’s work, visit her website, follow her on LinkedIn, or check out her book, “The Truth About Equity.” And for more conversations on leadership, inclusion, and human potential, explore past episodes of the Two Piers Podcast.

Full transcript for this episode