The Stress Effect

Since 1992, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. Chronic stress has been shown to negatively impact health in a multitude of ways, and enduring high levels of stress can decrease performance at both an individual and organizational level. Research also indicates that stress can impact historically marginalized communities in more extreme ways. In this podcast episode, we explore ways to recognize and address stress in both yourself and your team, and the importance of understanding how it manifests uniquely for each of us.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:07

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. Today we'll be discussing stress. So we'll explore stress from a personal and physiological standpoint, but also from an organizational standpoint. We'll discuss ways to recognize stress and ways to address it both for yourself and for your team. Thanks for joining us for this next episode of Season 3 of the Two Piers podcast.

For the past 30 years, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. It's a time in which we can raise awareness about the health impacts of stress, and how it affects both ourselves and those around us. So I wanted to start this podcast out with a personal anecdote back from 2016. So at that time, I had just wrapped up a really high stress, high stakes job working offshore, rotating internationally kind of working on a boat. And I just started a sabbatical, I had just started this company Two Piers, I'd also just gotten married, we just had like a little ceremony with friends and family up in Massachusetts kind of signed the paperwork out in a park with a town clerk, you know, nothing exorbitant. But I was also combining households at the time, now that I wasn't working offshore, we decided to renovate my house while we lived in my partner's house. I also decided to apply for some grad schools to start my MBA and explore grad school programs. Meanwhile, I was in parallel organizing the big wedding celebration that we would be holding in Houston, where, you know, our friends would travel from around the country, and it would kind of be the big party. So, I was doing all this while self managing ADHD and thinking to myself, like, oh, this is the low stress part of my life. This is the part where I've left the high stress work environment behind and now I can just focus on some personal things for a little bit. Then, all of a sudden, I started seeing these symptoms of what looked like an allergic reaction, almost like I'd eaten something that I was allergic to. And we could not figure out the source. I talked to doctors, and we tried eliminating pretty much everything from my diet. They put me on some oral steroids, and yet I was still seeing these like big red blotches that would just come out of nowhere and it persisted. I tried antihistamines, I tried Benadryl, which is an antihistamine, but you know, these all have side effects. So the steroids can make you like a little edgy or cranky, they can cause like increased appetite, decreased metabolism, the Benadryl makes you sleepy and groggy. Just a whole cocktail of things that someone who is about to have to get in a little white dress does not, does not want to deal with. And I just felt increasingly helpless and frustrated. And then we like had no answers. So it just happened to be that in those days leading up to the wedding, I offhandedly mentioned to my OBGYN during my annual appointment that I was having these like, allergy symptoms, and we couldn't figure out what it was. I'd like gone to hypoallergenic everything. And I was essentially eating just like bowls of rice at that point. She laughed and was like, "Well, it's the stress silly." And I thought like, I'm not stressed.

There's no stress, like, what I'm not even like doing anything I'm, I'm, I'm not working offshore anymore. So this is like the low stress period. And she kind of like rattled off all the things that I was doing, these major life changes that I was tackling all at once. And I realized, like, oh, right, I am stressed. It's just a different type of stress. I was so just caught up in the sheer number of things I had to get done and just entirely focused on powering through that I really hadn't even considered the magnitude of what I was trying to accomplish. And it just didn't fit in my paradigm either of what I thought stress looked like. So instead of being in an environment where people could die if I made a mistake, or we were always on edge, and the hours were really long, and there were sleep deprivation, it was a different type of stress, but stress that I had gotten used to, in a way. And now I told myself, you know, I'm just like, I'm arranging Airbnb reservations for family members, and travel plans and catering reservations and this is easier stuff. But it wasn't, it wasn't easier stuff, there were lots of interpersonal interactions going on, there was a lot to juggle, there were a lot of disparate work streams happening with pretty high stakes. So, yeah, I finally realized what the source of this reaction was, and it was my own body kind of saying, like, timeout, stop, that's enough, you're not going to acknowledge the stress unless we do something that's unavoidably recognizable here, was like putting up a warning flare to say, like, cut it out, this isn't sustainable. And it did right before the big wedding event in an unavoidable way. So, it was clear, once it was clear what the source of the stress was, or what the source of the this reaction was, I was able to take measures to kind of intervene, and I was able to sort of delegate a lot of stuff and let go of some of the perfectionism around it, and just sit my butt down and do some meditation, which really, really helped. And so in those photos from that day, I managed to get into that little cream colored Diane Von Furstenberg dress after all, and there's no big red blotches in any other photos. But, I still look back on that and think, how unaware I was of my own stress levels, and whenever I start to feel stress kind of reaching those unsustainable levels in my life, I remember like there's a potential allergic reaction around the corner that might kick in, that I'll then have to deal with in parallel, when my body just says, nope.

So what's the point of this story? What's the learning that I want our listeners to take away? Well, there are a couple, one big piece of it is the connection between mind and body, they are in fact, one in the same. So our brain's primary function is actually to maintain what's called allostasis. And you might not have heard that word before. So that's the process in which a state of internal physiological equilibrium is maintained by an organism in response to actual or perceived environmental and psychological stressors. So Lisa Feldman Barrett explains this in actually both of her books that I've read, she might have more than two books, but the two that I've read are, How Emotions Are Made, which goes very much in depth around how our brains function and the connection between emotions and physiology. And then her other book, Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain, which is a very engaging and easily approachable book, so I highly recommend it. So she explains that the brain's primary function is not actually thinking, even though that's what we normally think of when we think of the brain. The brain's primary function is to keep you alive. So all of the signals that are transmitted, all of the chemicals that are released, the physiological changes that we then interpret as emotions, for example, my stomach feels queasy, and my blood pressure has gone up and I'm starting to sweat, therefore, this is stress. Those are the result of our brain trying to predict and prepare for whatever will keep us alive. And it does so by budgeting and then deploying the resources that we have. So the energy that we have from eating food, or the water that we have available, the hormones that we have available, but sometimes the perceived threats that we're physically prepared to tackle in that state of elevated stress, that like acute stress, are not the actual deadly threats that we think they are.

Instead, we end up with this chronic enduring stress, which ironically, does not help keep us alive. In fact, it shortens our lifespans. So stress is tied to myriad health conditions that can negatively impact not just our quality of life, but also the length of our life. So in that episode from 2016 that I just discussed, I had a case of acute stress that was layered on top of chronic stress and that manifested into a visible physical reaction. However much of the impact to our bodies and health are just not so easily recognized. But that doesn't mean they're not occurring and enduring. So according to the APA or the American Psychological Association, chronic stress can affect both our physical and psychological well being by causing a variety of problems including anxiety, insomnia, muscle pain, high blood pressure, and a weakened immune system, which you know, during a pandemic is certainly not what we want. So chronic stress, we know is tied to heart disease and even those that do not have heart disease can suffer a heart attack due to an acute bout of stress. So as we approached April this year, and I was thinking about all these amplifying stressors that play layering on top of each other, the incredible amount of stress that most people are managing just day to day already, plus we had a war kicking off in Europe, we had these terrible stories of pain and destruction and talk of nuclear war at play, COVID cases going up and down, surging, but certainly regulations are changing with mass mandates, and people are returning to the office and managing that in a new world of hybrid work or fully returned to work. And oh, April is tax season. So you know, that annual low stress time for everyone where they're getting all their stuff done. And you know, maybe you got your taxes done in January, but I don't know how many people were battling up to the last minute to get taxes done in April. So I'm sure it's just a coincidence that April was chosen as stress Awareness Month, but I certainly saw lots of seasonal stress. And the days are getting longer, which everyone tends to think of as a good thing. And I do think it's a good thing, I think seasonal affective disorder tends to hit people in the winter, when the days are short, we have a lack of sunlight, a lack of vitamin D. But as those days get longer, and our energy increases, sometimes that can lead to higher stress, it can actually lead to increased irritability for some folks and longer days and less sleep. So that light change in the positive direction, we should also be keeping an eye on.

So what can we do? I think we certainly can't change individually, we can't change outcomes of international diplomacy or stop a global pandemic. But one of the most important things we can do is to recognize the stress itself. So that was the other key element from my story from 2016 was this ability to recognize our own kind of tells or identify our own signals from ourselves or our bodies that we are under huge amounts of stress. So we all have different ways that stress will manifest and it could be behavior like biting your nails, or eating sugary foods, or it could be exhibited through poor sleep. Maybe when you're experiencing high stress, you end up doom scrolling on social media for extended periods of time.

So we can learn a lot about our current state by just stopping to take a quick inventory of our behaviors of our rhythms and the sensations and experiences that we're having within our bodies. That's something that we call interoception. So a key to this activity of like taking that inventory is at least, to the best of your ability, trying to leave behind the stories about how stressed you should be right now. So just like in my story, where I felt like, I should not be stressed right now, because I'm not doing the normal things that I would think would stress me out. These are fun things to be doing. You know, picking out tile for the kitchen renovation should be a fun activity. I had my own biases and stories around what stress should look like and that got in the way of me being able to recognize what was happening with myself. Even more recently, a few weeks ago, I realized that I was crying intermittently from things that normally wouldn't cause such a reaction. And that's pretty unusual for me. And then it dawned on me that I was managing a massive amount of stress, coming up on the end of one cue, lots of due dates and deadlines and a lot of different responsibilities in different parts of my life that we're all just kind of landing at the same time. In a moment, I remember thinking, but I don't have anything to be stressed about. And just saying the words out loud, like, I think I've reached my full capacity and I'm approaching burnout was hugely impactful for me.

So being able to stop taking inventory, and just recognize what is versus what should be, can be really helpful in at least understanding where we're at on that scale of stress. And when we've moved from sort of peak operating for intermittent stress into the enduring chronic stress that is now reducing our quality of life and reducing our quality of work and having negative impacts. So while you know coming to that realization is not a cure in and of itself, it is the key to be able to make a change. So that's the key empowering information to be able to then make changes in your life and not just continue with the status quo. So you can start to monitor for when those sorts of, I'll call it a tell, those tells arise, even just when your pace quickens or you can feel your blood pressure increase, and I mentioned interoception. So that's when we are aware of the feelings within our body, and a lot of times yoga practitioners will discuss interoception, but it's being able to understand the small changes in your own physiology that normally you're not even thinking about. Once you can pick up on that, then you can make those adjustments and adjustments can take a wide range of forms. So it might be physical, you might notice that you're feeling elevated stress and you wanna go get some fresh air or go take a walk, maybe play fetch with your puppy, that's a great stress reliever. Or you know, play with your cat. Pets are huge stress relievers, when they're not stressed inducers at three o'clock in the morning. But you can also make environmental changes. So you can increase how much full spectrum light that you have in your workspace, you can put your noise cancelling headphones in and add some uplifting music, if you work better with music. Music and rhythm can be huge stress reducers. Maybe dancing is the way that you can reduce stress. It can also be psychological, we can reframe our situations and maybe understand the true likelihood of negative outcomes. So that threat that we're perceiving that's causing that fight or flight mechanism to kick in, what's the real likelihood that something bad will happen? And what does that really look like? That can take some of the weight out of it. Or perhaps, we stopped trying to control an outcome that isn't ours to control so that you know, there's mechanisms in the reframing that we can use. That's something that we do a lot in coaching is we can reframe things and understand what the true root source of the stressor is, and then how we want to understand it going forward.

But we can also make some big changes. If chronic stress is something that has been a battle for months or years, then it could be that you can say no to big projects, you know, no new projects, I'm already at capacity or no to people. And surrounding yourself with people who understand that and are okay with that can really improve our quality of life. And sometimes it's at a point where we understand that it's time to leave a job or a relationship that's no longer serving us and is the source of our chronic stress. And I recognize that's not always possible. That requires resources, privilege, etc. But a first step is even recognizing where the source of our chronic stress is coming from and what the impact is to our longer term lifespan and quality of life. So another thing to keep in mind, as we look at how we react and respond to stress is that our stress patterns can really be shaped by our past experiences, especially when those include trauma. So in their book What Happened to You?, Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey, do a great job of exploring stress patterns and stress response. I listened to that book on Audible and I thought it was wonderful to hear the discussion back and forth. They provide a PDF that has diagrams to walk through it, but I also think the paperback could be another great resource. So they discussed how individuals who have experienced unpredictable, extreme and or prolonged stress, particularly in their developmental years, may also experience sensitized stress responses. So that means that they're fight, flight or freeze reaction is just triggered more quickly. So if we think of like a curve, it looks more like a logarithmic curve that rises fast and then plateaus versus a linear curve, that's like a straight line in a upward direction. So this type of response, one point was the body's way of keeping that individual safe in the face of unpredictable danger. But it's not so easily turned off when it starts kicking in prematurely or causes a stress response that's no longer appropriate or helpful for us. So we see similar impacts with PTSD. And Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, actually explores this extensively in his book, The Body Keeps the Score. And I mentioned this because it can be really helpful to work with a trained certified therapist to address any past trauma that is negatively impacting how we experience and process stress in our day to day lives. That's not for everybody, not everyone is experiencing those sensitized stress responses due to trauma. But if you are, then definitely there is work to be done that a therapist can help with.

So we've talked about this from a personal perspective, but how about from an organizational perspective. Staying tuned into the stress levels of your team and your employees is critical, but we have to remember that each of us will exhibit and manage stress in our own unique way. So, if you as a team manager are an extrovert, and you think that the way for the group to blow off steam after a big deliverable is to have an off site or like a Zoom happy hour, you'll just need to be mindful that any introverts on your team are probably under increased stress due to that activity, and it's adding about a massive stressor instead of alleviating stress. Similarly, for the extroverts on the team, if they've been working from home extensively for enduring periods of time, that could be leading to feelings of isolation, and thus increased stress. So many times the narratives and myths we have around the value of the grind or toughing it out or putting in the elbow grease, they can actually do a disservice to us in recognizing and addressing stress. And yet, we know that chronic stress levels lead to decreased productivity, difficulty concentrating, increased interpersonal conflict and tension. And then, oversights and mistakes. So while we might mythologize and kind of hold up the grind and putting in the long hours as being somehow like, emblematic of a good worker, it can cloud our vision with recognizing stress and performance on the team. So allowing the stress to then continue to the point of burnout just results in more like days away from work cases, more medical leave higher turnover. And none of that is good for the bottom line. None of that is good for team cohesiveness or for furthering the mission of your organization.

And we also know that members of marginalized and underrepresented groups may not just experience additional higher levels of chronic and acute stress, but they also might have less leeway in addressing that stress in the workplace or showing vulnerability because they're facing biases and stereotypes that will limit the ways in which they feel they can talk about that stress or voice those concerns or be vulnerable. So getting to know each member of your team as an individual and establishing psychological safety and understanding how they cope with and manage stress are all critical leadership skills and frankly responsibilities of any leader. That doesn't mean that we need to entirely change the way the team works for each and every individual but, being able to treat everyone in the way that they will operate best will inherently be better for the team.

So if you are looking for support in dealing with a stressful work environment, or if you want to learn more about establishing healthy work practices in your team, you can get in touch with us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can schedule a free consultation and we'll talk about how we can help you. Our coaches and consultants are here to help you on an individual level and on an organizational level to help you thrive. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Two Piers Podcast.

Selecting the Right Coach

In our first episode of Season 3, we're joined by fellow Two Piers coach Dr. Anthony Luevanos. In this episode, we explore how to go about selecting a coach - what to look for, what matters, and what might matter less than you'd think! We answer some of the common questions we encounter and share our own insights and lived experiences. This is also a great opportunity to get to know Anthony a bit better and understand his coaching style and who he works with as clients.

Transcription Below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, season three. We'll be kicking off this season today with an exploration of what to look for in a coach. So we get this question a lot and figured it was worth a discussion. In order to help kind of explore this, we have a special guest joining us today. So, fellow coach Anthony Luévanos who also coaches with Two Piers Consulting.

Welcome, Anthony.

Anthony Luévanos 0:45

Thank you. I appreciate it. It's good to be here. So glad I get to join you on the season three podcast this so much fun.

Erica D'Eramo 0:55

Yeah, I always love having good guests on it really makes podcasting a whole lot of fun. So, Anthony and I have kind of talked about this in the past about what we like in a coach, what we see as valuable in a coach, but with the amount of times that we've fielded this question, we thought, you know, why not have a discussion? He and I might have kind of different points of view on this. So yeah, Anthony, what are your thoughts just to kind of kick off?

Anthony Luévanos 1:28

Sure. Well, I think one of the very first things that you always think about is whether or not to do the research, or whether or not to do, just get one under your belt. So, there are definitely those two different ways and maybe even more, but you could do the all the research you want on a particular coach and then get to that coaching experience, and then realize, oh gosh, this isn't working, or never have done the research, get one under your belt and realize that this is the one you just don't want to stick with the rest of your life. So there's nothing like getting that experience in there firsthand to establish that coaching relationship. But also, you could do a hybrid and do a little bit of research and get one under your belt, and then move on from there.

Erica D'Eramo 2:25

Yeah, I think a lot of coaches offer kind of either a free consultation or get to know me session in advance. So that would definitely be something that I would recommend taking them up on that offer. I know at Two Piers, we offer a free 45 minute consultation first. That really is for people to get a feel for our vibe, our style for us to explain what they should expect out of coaching and how we coach and for them to make a decision at that point, if it sounds like a match or if it doesn't sound like a match. That happens on both sides too. So, I certainly want a client to use that time to decide if they feel like I'm a good match for them as a coach. And similarly, if I sense that, you know, I'm not the right coach for that client, I'll let them know. It might be, you know, that actually, Anthony might be a better match for them as a coach based on style or background. So...

Anthony Luévanos 3:30

And you know, sometimes you just run into these coaches that are just amazing. I mean, they can switch from coaching style to coaching style and they are great adapters at whatever you throw at them. So, that's why I say you can do the research or all the research you want, but getting that first under your belt and getting familiar with the coaching process and the experience is, I think, essential for all clients. You may run into that coach in that rare occasion that can adapt to you and adapt to what you need, and really have a great positive experience and get some really great stuff. So don't sell a coat short if you've done all your research and you're thinking well, this particular coach may not really fit my style, who I am, my personality but I would say cut the coach a little bit of slack, experience the coaching firsthand and see how it goes. Sometimes there's the off chance that you can go on a blog or read a profile on one of these coaching certification agencies or associations and kind of get a little bit of background. But that experience really doesn't do justice to what that coach can bring. Let's be honest, all coaches on their profiles, depending on how often they check those profiles and then how often they update their description online. Coaches change over time and some coaches, they constantly are in that space of learning and evolving as coaches. So just remember that when you're shopping around for a coach.

Erica D'Eramo 5:45

Yeah, I completely agree, I think there's no, there's no guarantee from doing any of the background research that it's going to be a match as far as style goes. Just like for those of us that have experienced the online dating world, you could find a perfect profile that looks like it's going to be an exact match. But, there's something about chemistry that really makes a big difference. I don't think I know of too many coach, I don't think I know of any coaches that don't have something in place to kind of accommodate for a mismatch in chemistry. So, I would certainly recommend if you don't get a complimentary session or kind of a get to know you session, if you're going straight into a paid coaching engagement, make sure that the coaching agreement has something in there to accommodate for if it's not a match. If you get through that first session, do they have a refund policy? Will they allow you to cancel the engagement. You don't need to have something go wrong in a coaching session for it to just not feel like a match, because it's very, it's very unique and very personal. So yeah, I agree, getting one under your belt is kind of critical to making sure that it's the right coach for you.

Anthony Luévanos 7:16

Oh, for sure.

Erica D'Eramo 7:17

What are some other...Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Anthony Luévanos 7:19

No, I was just thinking, you know, you don't want to get into a coyote ugly situation and you're just trying to chew your arm out of that bear trap, you're like out of the bear trap, like, oh, my gosh, I just committed six sessions or bought six sessions with this person. So yeah, that's a good point, Erica. But yeah, like you were asking some other aspects is, you know, what do you want to get out of the coaching experience? Yeah, what do you envision for your experience? Some of the things that you can think about, or do you want to set goals for yourself? Are you looking for a partner in a visioning process? Do you want to challenge yourself in some aspect of life? Are you trying to solve a problem, think through a situation? Even as basic as overcoming intergroup conflict and trying to get some ideas and having that coach just help you dig deeper, to get just a different perspective on life experiences and how to think through these things. So, those are those are important points when you start considering what coach or a type of coach you want to work with so that you can have an opportunity really to move throughout these different situations. I mentioned before, a coach can really, great coaches can really adapt to different scenarios and they can really help you move through these spaces. So often, you're in a situation and there are lots of coaches and some coaches specialize with particular clients that have a particular outcome, or they're thinking about something that they want to get done through the coaching experience. So just remember that when you're reading a profile and when you're interacting with somebody, make sure that that is a good fit for the expected outcomes that you have.

Erica D'Eramo 9:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that, especially as coaching is becoming more well understood and people are understanding that, you know, coaches partner with their clients, we're seeing a bit less of this, but oftentimes, there's just a really basic misunderstanding of what coaching provides and people are expecting that they'll meet a coach and get a lot of advice. Sometimes that's what they want and sometimes we know advice can not be as helpful as we expect it to be. So that's another thing to get clear with your coach on at the beginning, what is it that you're looking for? Because I know that if I made a client or potential client who says like, I just want you to give me career advice, I'll usually take that opportunity to take a pause and understand what are you hoping to seek by getting my advice? Because in a coaching context, we generally don't give advice, right? That's one of the things that people are often surprised about that we tend to avoid giving advice because we deeply believe that our clients know best, their own situation and know best what is right for the and so we help them uncover that. But being clear about what your outcomes are and what your goals are, will be really helpful in that coach understanding A if they're a right fit for you, and B, what that engagement might look like, what the arc of the engagement might look like and how they can be helping you to measure milestones, measure progress against that. So yeah, those are definitely important as you're starting on your coach discovery adventure.

Anthony Luévanos 11:27

For sure and I keep thinking about this, there's an image in my head that I keep going back to every time I have a coaching session and that image is the difference between someone with a flash, between following someone with the flashlight, the coach, being the one with the flashlight, and kind of leading and lighting the way versus the coach being behind the client and kind of lighting the way for the client wherever the client wants to go.

Erica D'Eramo 12:00

Yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 12:00

So, you know, it's a subtle difference but it's very important in terms of how you treat the how you treat the client or coachee, how you treat them and how the experience for the client goes. Because as a coach, you always want to be that person that says, where do you want to go with this conversation? What do we want? What do you want to accomplish at the end of this, so that the client can have some autonomy on or over where they'd like to take the conversation and how to move through X, Y, and Z?

Erica D'Eramo 12:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of brings us on to topics of like, style and structure, actually. So, we've touched on style a little bit in chemistry, but I think coaching style to me is a really, maybe one of the most important factors for me when I'm seeking coaches, because, believe it or not, like most coaches have a coach, I think it's really good as a coach for me to also have a coach because I get to sit in the client's seat quite a bit, it keeps my skills honed, it keeps me empathetic towards my clients. So yeah, what I look for in a coach is really style above all else. That blends a bit into structure, how do they like to structure things, but I think what works for me won't necessarily work for other people and vice versa. So there's no right or wrong style, necessarily. I guess there are some styles that don't really adhere to what the ICF would consider coaching. But it's not a bad thing if you meet a coach and their style doesn't match yours, their style will match someone else's needs. So, just to be real with that, because I think so often in this world, we're taught to adapt to the hierarchy, adapt to the people that we're working with. In this case, I don't know that that's quite as important. It's important for the coach to be able to adapt, but for the client to be able to adapt to a coach's style is less important, actually, I think finding a style that works naturally is the most important. There's a lot of styles out there and some of the coaching databases like ICF will often ask how do you describe your style as a coach? And if they're looking to match people, they'll say, what style of coaching do you prefer? So what do we mean by style, I guess. So, Anthony, what do you think of when I talk about coaching style?

Anthony Luévanos 15:05

Well, I mean, honestly, just think of your attitude and your approach, kind of meeting the client where they are and just kind of getting a general feeling for how hard to press in, when to pull back, going at the pace of the client. That's important whenever you're thinking about, okay, well, this client seems the need to be challenged, they need a more direct approach. When you're coaching it does seem that coaches often find themselves moving from one place to another, depending on the particular topic or maybe even the general clients disposition. And so, attitude is really important when you're coaching a client. So when you're selecting a coach, understanding, you kind of have at the outset to have an understanding of what that coaches style is, whether they're more direct and firm or just non direct and gentle, unstructured versus structured. So oftentimes, we always hear coaches say that they have just a solid set of questions and those are the questions that they ask. I mean, that works, for some situations, but an unstructured approach is just as effective with clients.

For me, yeah, I would definitely advise clients or potential clients to look for those little things in terms of style. Because depending on what you need, whether you need some motivation or you need some inspiration, or you need someone that just practical, you need someone to guide you through that again, that process of thinking through a more practical situation, then, yeah, definitely. I would say, look at that coaches client comments, perhaps the coach has some quotes that clients have given them to kind of get a sense of what that coach is like. While one client may say one thing about this particular coach's style, another client might experience the same coach in a different way. And again, that will definitely show you, give you a deeper understanding of how that coach can adapt to different clients.

Erica D'Eramo 17:57

I think that's one of the other reasons it's important to like you said, get one under your belt, because while you might meet a coach, and like getting to know you meeting, and they might say that they have a quite gentle style, you'll really just be able to tell in the session itself. We're all a bit subjective about our styles. So even for me, understanding my style sometimes comes through seeing client testimonials, where they'll say things like, very supportive or created a very open safe space for me. And I think like, oh, that's great. Okay. I'm glad that that's how my style is coming. But it's easier to see it from the outside than the inside, necessarily. But yeah, I think, you mentioned supportive versus challenging, some clients really like to be challenged. They like that tension that directness, and other clients, especially if they're getting a lot of that challenge from their current work environment, they need something a bit warmer and more supportive and understanding like where you're at right now, how you like to be challenged, how you like to be held accountable. Whether you want your coach to do more of the same of what you're used to or whether you want them to provide like a breath of fresh air and maybe a different style than what you're used to encountering at work or in your life, understanding that can be really, really helpful.

You mentioned structured versus unstructured and I think that there will usually be some level of cadence, some level of arc to the conversation in a client session or in a coaching session, but how structured that is and how much it varies from one session to another is quite dependent on the coach I think. So, for clients who really want to, they want to just land in the day and talk about whatever is top of mind that day and just kind of fly by the seat of our pants like stream of consciousness. I'm cool with that, if that's what they need in the moment, and if that's what works for them. But I know some coaches will really work to make sure that they stick to a structure. So if you're someone who likes that, who likes to structure who needs that, it's to kind of be brought back to home base and stick to it. Knowing that is really good because if you're not like that and you want to just sort of do stream of consciousness and the coach is bringing you back consistently, that kind of friction can really be challenging in a coach client relationship, I think.

Anthony Luévanos 20:52

Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I enjoy structure just as much as you know, I guess the next person. But I also like where more of the Tai Chi of coaching experience, you know, you go with the flow, and you do again, you reach that arc, and you come to a conclusion eventually. But it's important to know, again, I go back to what I said before, what are your expected outcomes? What do you want out of this coaching experience and that in hand, or that in mind, shop for a coach, if you want to do the research shop for a coach, but, definitely just get one on your belt. And I'm telling you, it's better if you don't overthink it and just get one in, because then you'll know, okay, well, that didn't go so great or maybe I just, I wasn't sure really what I wanted to get out of this experience, but at least you got one or you know what to expect in that coaching space. So, just get one under your belt, that's all I have to say.

Erica D'Eramo 22:09

Yeah, and I don't think you need many coaching sessions to understand if the coach is the right coach. You'll know the first coaching session, whether you have chemistry and whether their level of structure works for you. So you know, it really is like one session, you'll have a good feeling of whether it's a match. I do think over time I've probably moved towards more structure with my clients because I find that it's tended to lead to better outcomes for them. But it really is dependent on the goal. So kind of to circle back to what you said about what do you want to get out of the coaching, if my client really just needs a space to unpack, to understand their own thought process, to feel heard, to verbalize things that they hadn't verbalized before, that might look less structured. If they want to come out of the session with a prioritized list of five things to do, then that session might have more structure and we'll have a halfway checkpoint and we'll revisit, are we still on track? I do that in all my sessions anyways, but, I think that the type of goal will lend itself to more or less structure. So yeah, so probably finding a coach that can be flexible within that is is going to be important.

Anthony Luévanos 23:49

I wanted to ask you how important is background?

Erica D'Eramo 23:55

Well, I would say that background, like a coaches background as in what their career path was, or them having shared lived experiences with us, it certainly plays a role in that. I think it can allow us to become comfortable more quickly, it can help to increase psychological safety if we feel like that person has a similar journey or similar challenges to what we've experienced. I would say that it can be a bit of a red herring sometimes as well. So if we feel like we need a coach who has lived that same experience to us, that could really narrow our field quite a bit, especially if they're very unique experiences. Like me, for me, having worked overseas, worked on offshore facilities, if I had been looking for a coach who had had exactly that experience, I might have been looking for a long time. The reality is that while I certainly would feel like that person knew what I was talking about, if I use some of the jargon or the lingo, I have had coaches who have none of those shared experiences that have coached me extremely well. So often, we unnecessarily kind of limit that scope of potential coach, if we're looking for that. That's my thought on background.

Anthony Luévanos 25:40

Yeah, no, that's a good point, it really is a good point, because, I go at it from two different, I guess, ends and similarly to you, I mean, background matters to me, dependent upon my outcomes, my expected outcomes. If I need to think through a situation, I might lean towards someone more with some similar experiences, maybe not the same. But I don't totally kick out and someone that doesn't have the same background only because, again, it depends on what I'd like out of the coaching session. I tend to think that sometimes get taking yourself out of the element, out of that space, where, okay, this person is in the field of, you know, marketing and they have so much experience there. But I'm in science and while that may come into play at some point, I don't totally think that a coach with a different background than the client is going to get less quality from that particular coach. They may actually help that client to think through some issues in a different way.

Erica D'Eramo 27:16

Exactly. Yeah, I think the similar background piece is very much a double edged sword to me. So sure it can help to accelerate that psychological safety piece, you're using the same language, often, you're kind of used to thinking of things, you can make references, and know that that person will understand it. Yet, it can be really challenging when your coaches had, as a coach, maybe speaking as a coach, it can be really challenging when your client has had a lot of the same experiences that you've had to not get in the box with them, like we say, in coaching, right? To not try to fix the problem. There can sometimes be a higher risk of a client deferring to the coach and asking for advice. Because there is that potential differential of seniority or differential of experience in that field. So we end up kind of being pulled towards that consultant mindset instead of the coach mindset, just because it's very easy to say, well, what did you do, if that person's lived it? I find that as I'm doing coaching for longer, I'm getting more used to that, and it's okay if somebody says, well, what did you do? And I understand how to answer that question without giving them advice. But I do think that it can, yeah, I can have its upsides and its downsides. Because if you want to consultant then that person and if that person is going to act as a consultant in that moment, then it should be really clear, right? I'm taking my coach hat off, now. I'm gonna put my consultant hat on. That starts to muddy the waters a little.

Anthony Luévanos 29:11

Yeah and I want to go back to what you had said earlier. I mean, providing that safe space, sometimes this is an essential piece of how you want to experience your coaching session. There's so often times where clients can come to us with some with some traumatic experiences, and the only way that they feel safe sharing or thinking through this situation is by having someone with some similar experiences and being able to identify in a coach is professional. Erica, I mean, I know that when they would come to that place of hey, what did you do? Well, let's get what you want out of this experience. And good coaches adapt to that situation, they'll know, okay, wait, hold on, I'm not here to really provide mentoring or go into a consulting role here during this coaching session. But, sometimes you need someone that you that you feel safe with, and safe with sharing, because there's some commonalities there in terms of experiences on the job and personal experiences. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, is that a legitimate thing to think about when you're shopping around for a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 30:56

Yeah, I think. I think it's kind of like I'm an experienced client now as well, too, in a way, right? We've sat in the clients seat so much that if I encounter a coach who is like... I'm not going to ask a coach for advice, right? So in that regard, I don't end up encountering that. But I do think I've encountered coaches very early. In fact, I had kind of a negative experience when I first looked for a coach just because I couldn't find anyone that seemed to specialize in my area of what I was looking for, which was support for sort of first level leaders, for women working offshore. Again, very niche, very narrow, but I just found like an executive coach. So, I just remember, describe, and the person was a really good coach, and I enjoyed working with them. And also, when I explained kind of like, what life was like working offshore, just like normal life, that was not something they'd encountered before. And I remember them sort of saying, like, well, that just sounds like you should probably quit and find something else. And I thought, like, oh, you just don't get it. I mean, as a coach, they probably shouldn't have said that. But that part was like, right, okay, I probably need to find somebody who's at least not going to be like, whoa, that's so foreign to me that I think you should change careers. So, so yeah. That's my feelings on background, it can be helpful to have like a framework to understand that you share with your client to understand what their career looks like, and what their lived experiences are. I sometimes love getting fresh perspective from somebody who has never been there as long as it's maybe delivered in the right way.

Anthony Luévanos 33:13

Yeah, and you bring up a good point, you know, kind of our next point is experience level. How important is experience level?

Erica D'Eramo 33:22

So yeah, I think that for experience level, I've met some really just life changing coaches that are at the beginning of their coaching journey that I'm really glad to have had an opportunity to work with and be coached by. So I don't think that experience level is necessarily a must have, I think you can find a good match. Often, coaches who are at the beginning of their journey might be more accessible in terms of their availability, in terms of their fee structure, even. Oftentimes with more experience comes the ability to charge higher rates. I mean we should all be compensated for the value in the experience that we bring. So I don't have any issue with that. I think it's an art and a science. I've seen that some coaches that have more experience under their belt, while it's not a guarantee that they'll have fine tuned that in fact, sometimes they kind of fall back on like... I've met coaches who have so much experience but maybe have never gone through ICF accredited training or certification to sort of fall back on their experiences. Like, well I don't need to do any more learning, I've already done it. I have 20 years under my belt. I mean, I find that those haven't been a match for me. So that's something to keep an eye out for. But certainly, like my mentor coach has a great deal of experience and she, her coaching is an art form, like, she's an artist, and she is very inspired in what she does and inspiring and what she does. She really has it tuned in, and that she has that gut instinct at this point. So, so yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 35:25

I was just gonna mention for our viewers or listeners, ICF is the International Coaching Federation. It's a certifying body for professional coaches. So, you can have different levels of certification, ACC, PCC and MCC. But yeah, that's a really good point, more experience doesn't guarantee a great coaching session, less experience may provide you with the fresh perspective. It's sometimes, again, a good thing to get a good session in with someone that doesn't have quite as much experience, not spend a pretty penny. But yeah, be sure that you're aware of the cost involved in hiring someone that looks like they have lots of experience and will cost you a lot of money.

Erica D'Eramo 36:25

Yeah, again, I think like having a first session, you'll know. And that's why it's good to understand your coaching agreement and understand, if you are signing on with a very experienced coach who has many hours and high profile clients under their belt, but it's not a match, what does that look like in terms of being able to cancelling engagement? Or get a refund? Or what is the commitment there? So, so yeah, I'm kind of a complicated, complicated one. So, the other thing we get asked about a lot is niche. What kind of coach are you? I often get asked are you at a life coach? Are you a career coach? What kind of coach are you? So I mean, what are your thoughts on niche?

Anthony Luévanos 37:20

Me, I would say that I'm a universal guide. Yeah, that goes into anywhere from starting up a new venture in life, to learning how to deal with the situation and being flexible in that space is really important to me as a coach, but then also as someone looking for a coach, I would say, finding someone that has diverse experience, or a variety of experience, would be a great thing to consider when you're shopping around for a coach, because you just never know, again, life happens during any one of the coaches that you run into, and they may carry with them a great variety of perspective. My niche again is anywhere from executive level leaders to a parent just trying to think through a situation. I hold them both at the same level of esteem. I think maybe, I may not be thinking through this as much as I should, but I may not be a good coach for someone that is maybe a astronaut. You never know, I mean, but, depending on the topic, depending on the situation, depending on the expected outcomes. I mean, I could be, it just really depends, but, niches is kind of one of those things where, as you mentioned earlier, how important is background? While it might play some a role in the coaching session, it's not the thing that should that usually drives clients towards particular coaches, or that coaches typically think, well, I only specialize in these types of clients. A good coach is adaptable. But, some coaches take clients that have particular needs and that's okay.

Erica D'Eramo 40:13

Yeah, I think for me it's interesting, because I think there's a lot of pressure on coaches to choose a niche, and to "niche down". But that's more about having a message that is accessible and palatable to clients. In my opinion.

Anthony Luévanos 40:34

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 40:35

Because we don't know how, if you just say I'm a coach, okay, what kind of coach and what do you coach, right? Because we have various definitions of coaches in this world. I'm not a soccer coach, or a football coach. But I don't like differentiating between being a life coach or career coach, I mean, because I find that those two are never really separable. If somebody wants to work on their career goals with me, their life will become a part of that conversation and vice versa. So I think that the framing is often for clients, that being said, career transition coaches who specialize in a certain period of time, they might have a network that is helpful for you, they might have skills in reviewing your resume and updating it, they might have these other elements of almost consulting that they can thread into their practice. A health coach probably would also have certain elements of that, so they might have tools that they use to help their clients achieve their goals. So I can see those types of niches being important, but oftentimes, the coach will be whatever type of coach you need on that day. So even if they're a career coach, show up and you just say, my cat died today, they're not going to be like, well, let's talk about your career anyways, right? You're going to need to process what's going on in your life at that moment. So with that? Yeah. Thank you for helping to explore some of these elements of how to find, select, keep a coach. I know that it's been a journey for me to understand what my preferences are, and in what I like and value from my coaches, so I thought this would be a good one for us to talk about.

Anthony Luévanos 42:44

Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, I honestly, I just, I keep thinking, you know, being kind of the the adapter, like the coaching ninja, so to speak. I think that term is played out, but the Navy Seal of coaching, if you will. But, yeah, it's important to consider all these aspects that we just talked about today, because they do play a major part. Once you get a coach, it's a way to get to where you want to go a lot faster.

Erica D'Eramo 43:19

Yeah, I agree. I think, for me, having a coach in my life has been really important in achieving my goals. It's been transformational for me and I really want to offer that to my clients as well. I do offer that to my clients. So certainly, I look forward to working with more clients that feel like I'm a good match for them. That's always important to me that my client feels like I'm a good match for them and that I help them achieve those goals. Yeah. So for Two Piers Consulting, we appreciate you joining us for this podcast episode. If you want to learn more about our services or keep up with us on social media, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can book a get to know you session or a free consultation with either Anthony or myself if you feel like we might be a match for you for coaching. You can also follow us on the social media channels. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Two Piers Consult. So we look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Thanks

International Menopause Awareness Day

In this episode, we're joined by Sarah Utley of Momentm, a fellow coach and DEI professional who discusses the impacts and implications of menopause from both a personal perspective, as well as a workplace and societal point of view. By 2025, projections estimate that 1 billion people will be experiencing menopause and yet understanding and awareness are still lacking. While menopause will be a part of life for nearly half the population, many employers do not take into account ways in which they can support their employees and create an inclusive environment that retains talent at the peak of their careers. We discuss this and more in our episode! To learn more about Sarah's offerings in the realm of DEI and coaching, visit her site at www.momentmpeople.com.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:08

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. We are joining you with a bonus episode in between seasons two and three. So we ended last season with an episode around hybrid work and returning to the workplace with Ruth Cooper-Dickson from Champs Consulting. It's a great episode, we recommend you check it out. So this bonus episode came about because Monday, October 18th is International Menopause Awareness Day, which ties into our efforts in creating diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. We were discussing this topic with Sarah Utley, a fellow coach and DEI professional, who's agreed to join us from across the pond to share her personal story. She'll also give us some background about why this topic is so important, some of the societal context around it, and what companies, organizations and individuals can do to help raise their awareness around the topic of menopause. As well as, understand how they can better support those in their lives and in their workplaces when looking at this issue. About half the population will experience menopause in their life and that includes cis women, trans men and some non binary folks as well. Lastly, before we get started, you may notice the audio quality on my end isn't its usual quality. And here at Two Piers, we're striving to combat perfectionism. So, we appreciate you sticking with us through this Airpods episode.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Utley 1:53

Hello, Erica. Thank you so much. Really, really happy to be here and talk about something that's incredibly impactful and personal for me and important for us to start talking about more broadly within society and within organizations. So, I've spent my my career in in human resources and I'm a qualified coach, and I'm looking into pivoting my business more into coaching. I'm passionate about supporting organizations to develop a coaching culture and coaching capabilities, as well as, working with individuals to help them maximize their potential. I am one of those younger women who experienced perimenopause in my 30s, which is less common. I've had both physical and mental health impacts as a result of menopause. I'm still experiencing that, I'm 46 now. Exhaustion for me has been the main physical impact along with sometimes lack of concentration. But the main thing really, for me has been feeling mentally disconnected, and often feeling tense and anxious and nervous, for no explained reason, kind of came out of nowhere. I didn't really link the two until I went to see a specialist about erratic periods. Then she asked me generally well, how are you feeling? What else is going on in your life? I kind of vomited out this whole, "I just feel awful. I just feel tired. I'm feeling nervous and anxious. I go into meetings and I'm just not myself anymore. I feel dislocated." She said, "Well, you know, you're probably going through the menopause." I was so surprised because I was 34. I didn't think at that age that I would be experiencing perimenopause. But, the more research I've done, the more I realized that that is not as uncommon as I thought it was originally. Fluctuation in your hormones can be so disruptive to your sense of well being. You've got these hormone receptors in your brain and they start to dip and that impacts the production of all those great feel good hormones like serotonin and dopamine. That can increase the symptoms of anxiety. Then you've got that stress hormone cortisol, which is highest in the morning and that helps. Estrogen actually helps control the spike in that, so when you lose estrogen, you just get this peak of cortisol and nothing really to counteract that. So, it's been really helpful for me to understand the chemicals in your brain more, and you take for granted a lot of the things in life that you experience until you start losing something. And so, it's almost like this, my loss of estrogen, slowly throughout my life, is becoming more and more impactful. But luckily, I have a lot of support around me. I'm on HRT, which is quite controversial still. But for people experiencing menopause under 50, it can be a really good thing to be doing for a lot of health reasons. So that's straight into my story and the impact of menopause on me.

Erica D'Eramo 5:44

Yeah, thank you for sharing that personal story. And thank you for sharing it with me outside of the context of this podcast, too. I guess for the sake of our listeners, this discussion came about because you and I share that passion for coaching in the workplace, creating a coaching culture in the workplace. And also, we share the passion for creating representative workforces that are both diverse, inclusive, and equitable. So, this topic, you know, in relation to those efforts really fit in well, and I appreciate you raising it with me and giving us an opportunity on the awareness day to raise awareness about it. So, in your words, how would you describe why this topic is so important? You know, what are some of the implications of it?

Sarah Utley 6:40

Well, as I just described, estrogen plays a massive role in women's health and well being. For women, personally, estrogen contributes to calcium in bones. With the loss of estrogen, you therefore have more risk of osteoporosis and brittle bone disease. Estrogen helps maintain cholesterol, which I found really surprising. I've experienced an increase in my cholesterol despite eating healthily and being fit. That is because my estrogen is just at such a low ebb now. Therefore, the loss of estrogen impacts coronary heart disease, and makes you more at risk of that. It also keeps, estrogen helps keep your bladder healthy, which again, I didn't know about. So a lot of women can experience bladder problems when they go through the menopause, that frequent need to urinate, which you kind of think, my goodness, why is this happening to me, and then you put two and two together, and it kind of all makes sense. For industry and society, I can only talk about what's happening in the UK. But there's roughly about 72% of women who are in employment, and four and a half million are aged between 50 and 64 and that is the fastest growing economically active group. That happens to be the age group of the people that are most likely to experience menopause. Many of these women are at the height of their careers. Shockingly, one in four women report considering leaving their jobs due to the impact of menopause symptoms. You know, that's really shocking when you hear that. I think there are some statistics to suggest that in the UK, 14 million workdays are lost a year as a result of the menopause. So it has huge consequences for organizations and society: retention of talent, productivity and performance, employee well being and in the UK, you know, sick pay, as well. So huge societal, and organizational impacts and individual impacts.

Erica D'Eramo 8:58

Yeah, I think you gave me a statistic that by 2025, approximately, 1 billion people are estimated to be experiencing menopause. While a lot of the framing of this is kind of around women and women's issues, we recognize too, that this is affecting trans men. This is affecting non-binary people, it's affecting partners of people experiencing menopause. So, while it's often framed as a women's issue, it's really throughout our society and across you know, the gender spectrum. This affects humans and relationships and workplaces. I think this age bracket is really, really interesting because that is sort of where many of us are at our peak experience, our peak knowledge, our peak wisdom that we can be contributing so much to the workplace and so much sure our colleagues. One of the that things you and I discussed was how, oftentimes, when we talk about these issues, when we talk about pregnancy, any sort of reproductive health, when we talk about taking time away from the workplace, or any sort of accommodations that can help retain this talent. Sometimes we're met with the eye roll of like, uh, more concessions for women, like women takes so much effort. This is why we shouldn't have women in the workplace, this is why we should just write them off on like a multitrack. Anyone whose initial reaction is to think like, "Oh, this is so much effort," I would say that the challenges for everyone morph and change throughout their career, regardless of gender. It is a real wasted opportunity to not try to retain that peak talent. These individuals that you have invested so much in, whose challenges are just shifting and morphing, right? We have challenges early stage career, we have challenges mid stage career, and by the end when we feel like we've got it all figured out, and we're sort of coasting, well, the challenges change, right? So, that's typical. That is, again, that affects men and women. So, for people experiencing menopause, that's like a different challenge for them. It feels like there's so much opportunity there to better support people that are going through these challenges so that we can continue to have access to their brilliance, to their ideas, to the cohesiveness that they add to our teams.

Sarah Utley 11:47

I totally agree, Erica. It is so simple to just think of this as an older women problem. But it's not. There are so many young women and just think how disruptive it is, if you're in your 30s, to be experiencing something so profound on your fertility, you might not have thought about having children and going through early menopause takes away that opportunity or makes it harder. The psychological or mental impact of that must be quite profound. So, it's not just women over the age of 50, we are talking about young women. We're also talking about men who have transitioned, as you mentioned, and women who've had cancer treatments such as chemotherapy can trigger menopause through the treatment they have. Anyone living with a woman, whether that's in a lesbian or heterosexual relationship will vicariously experience the menopause almost a double whammy. So, you know, and anybody who manages women in the workplace, is going to experience menopause. So it's societal, we should all have an interest in this. I'm passionate about changing the narrative, making this more accessible, normalizing this, so that we all feel confident to talk and tell our stories. Because, I have been profoundly changed by my experience of menopause for the better. Because, I have experienced levels of anxiety. That has taught me a lot about myself and I've reached out for help and support and learned a lot about myself, that have shaped my journey now. Part of the passion for coaching is to give back. I know the power of coaching and what it can do for individuals. So, I'd like other people to experience what I've experienced too, to help them.

Erica D'Eramo 13:56

Yeah, I think a very interesting, I guess, anecdotal observation that I had was that I have heard about the increased need for awareness and discussion of menopause in the workplace and that, so far, has been from men who have a partner or a loved one who is experiencing menopause and have said to me, you know, you work in diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a topic that is grossly under covered, under represented and not discussed enough. It really affects people who are experiencing it and might be blindsided by it, like it might not coincide with our work plans with whatever plans that they had. So it's been men that have raised it to me, which just, is a little reminder that perhaps when it comes to issues that typically affect women or that disproportionately affect women, they can often have this taboo, right? Because we're discouraged from showing vulnerability or showing these weaknesses that perhaps can get used against us and we don't want to be seen as requiring more effort or more investment. So, it's fascinating to me. My hypothesis is that that is why it's been mostly men who have raised this to me, because they did not feel that same anxiety about being seen, as you know, more difficult. So yeah, I haven't had women raising this to me about, you know, in the context of work, just men. So, keep raising it to the to the folks out there who have the privilege and the space to raise awareness, even if you're not directly experiencing this or directly affected. If somehow you're in a bubble that does not interact with any women, then still raise it, right? Because it does affect society. Often your voices can be taken very seriously if you're not seen as having a vested interest. I will say that, the allies and advocates are very important. Also, those are individuals who often disproportionately sit in higher ranks of management. So we need to have men as a part of this conversation. It can't just be seen as a women's issue.

Sarah Utley 16:29

That goes for the whole spectrum of inclusiveness. Whether we're talking about gender, ethnicity, disability, neurodiversity, menopause is equally important and requires a shift in mindset, a narrative and ally ship. I don't want to exclude men from any of that conversation. You know, my husband lives with me, he experiences me and my menopause every day. Actually, his insights could be incredibly impactful for an organization looking at what they do to raise awareness, how they create that conversation, how they build programs that support women, and have men as allies for those programs. It won't work unless we're all singing off the same hymn sheet, unless we fundamentally believe in that inclusive culture.

Erica D'Eramo 17:39

Yeah, I totally agree. So, we discussed some of the personal elements and some of the organizational elements a little bit, we touched on that. But, what do you think are some ways are that organizations can better support their talent and continue to retain that talent when they are experiencing menopause?

Sarah Utley 18:10

I like to reframe that to what can organizations do to create that inclusive culture and where women can bring their whole selves to work. You've touched on a lot of stuff already, but, raising awareness and building engagement events around days such as World Menopause Day. Investing in employee resource groups, where women can come together in a safe, psychologically safe, space to talk about things that are important to them and raise awareness within their teams, within the broader organization about menopause, and have men and leaders sponsor and advocate for those groups. Sharing personal stories is also a great way to raise awareness. Organizations can also better support talent experiencing the challenges of menopause by training managers, so that they have the skills to foster that inclusive culture. For me, those skills are listening, that underrated skill of listening, that we all take for granted. But, not everybody is very good at listening. But giving your time to sit down and genuinely invest in listening to another person can, in itself, be of such great value. Having empathy, showing your own vulnerability as a man or a line manager, giving and receiving feedback and dealing with difficult conversations. I think those are all the ways that we can support having better quality conversations about menopause and other inclusive topics. I am enormously passionate about coaching culture and coaching capabilities and what that can bring to an inclusive environment as well. Some organizations are writing specific menopause policies, others are ensuring that their flexible working policies are inclusive to enable women experiencing menopause to be able to take time off at short notice. The online fashion store ASOS will be allowing women to work flexibly, as well as take time off at short notice while going through the menopause. It's been in the press recently and it's one of several new policies they're introducing aimed at supporting employees who are going through health related life events. There's a number of other organizations in the UK, HSBC UK, First Direct and M&S Bank, who've recently announced as first employers in the UK to be awarded an accreditation called menopause friendly accreditation. That accreditation basically recognizes inclusive employers who build awareness and understanding around menopause and take well being of their colleagues really seriously. So there's lots of stuff that organizations can be doing to create conversations around menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 21:37

Yeah, I think your comment about being an attentive listener in any position of authority or power is really tied a lot to our coaching culture that we are hoping to instill in organizations. I guess, for those who are not very familiar with coaching, or a coaching culture, that listening means not jumping to conclusions about what best serves the person you're speaking to. So really kind of just checking yourself. I could see people who are very well intentioned, sort of assuming that they know what will help individuals and jumping to those conclusions. That's kind of got like a bit of a paternalistic, kind of bent to it, right? So we just want to ask individuals, what do you need? What would help you fully show up and fully be present, what could give you that environment? Ask them because everyone is different. So while we can create these more inclusive policies, certainly like flexible working, we've seen from the pandemic that this can be more effective than what many managers or leaders had previously assumed. Again, that's kind of the paternalism coming in, but, we've seen that it can work, right? We've seen that some people need a mixture of that and so being open minded about what can work in your workplace can really help these conversations blossom. I guess I would add that as a manager, if you understand what it is that your team is delivering, what the end goal is, what the mission is, then it really helps to have that mindset as you have these conversations about any sort of accommodations or any sort of changes to policy because presenteeism is no longer as important if you understand what you're measuring. If you understand what your team is delivering and why they're there. So, it really opens up all sorts of opportunities when you just know what it is that your team needs to deliver. The rest of it is noise, right?

Sarah Utley 24:08

Totally right. I love the way you picked up on listening. I ran a leadership development program last week and I practiced Nancy Klein's Time to Think and it went down a treat. People really nervous that the whole thought of not speaking for five minutes and just listening and getting them to focus on what's happening in their head. And you don't realize when you've sat there, truly trying to listen, what's happening in your head, the cueing of questions and how judgmental we can be and how we are compelled to give advice and offer solutions. That for me has been a major mind shift through my coach training. For my entire career, I've been paid to give advice and provide solutions and coaching really offers you and invites you to step back, and truly believe that the person in front of you has the answers to their own questions, and having that mindset will be really helpful at all levels of an organization. For my managers to pause, give really good space for a woman who is possibly struggling to talk about something that can be very personal, very impactful and could be feeling really embarrassed but raising this topic. So yeah, listening skill.

Erica D'Eramo 25:42

Yeah, and we're highlighting it here in this discussion around menopause awareness a and I just keep thinking about how it really is so applicable to any marginalized community who shows up with vulnerability and communicates what it is that they need in an environment where they have perhaps been discouraged from showing vulnerability or from meeting too much or asking too much, because they always have an eye on that value proposition, right? Like, how am I being measured? And so, I guess, anything we're discussing here really is so applicable across just the spectrum of disability awareness, neurodiversity, fertility issues, gender issues, gender transition, all of these things that occur in the workplace. I guess are conversation around active listening, open mindedness, coaching culture, checking our biases, it all applies, right?

Sarah Utley 26:51

Sure does.

Erica D'Eramo 26:52

So Sarah, as a coach, how do you support clients that are facing this kind of shifting landscape of challenges in their careers and in their lives as they are perhaps approaching menopause?

Sarah Utley 27:06

You mentioned that women experience many career transitions and menopause is just one of those. Women experience early career challenges. If they have children returning from maternity leave, their first leadership role, menopause is a another career and life transition. I coach from a place of what can you do to live alongside the menopause more easily? Because it can't go away. For some women, they may not experience any menopause symptoms. For others, this could last for 20 years of your life, the most productive period of your life. And therefore, I coach from a place of what can we do to help you live alongside this more easily. And coaching is an opportunity for women to talk about the lived experiences of menopause, and work on things that are important to them in dealing with the challenges that that brings. That could be around well being and resilience, being more assertive, and being able to talk about menopause with their own manager, or even with the husband, having more self belief and confidence. That can all fluctuate a result of changing hormone levels. So it's working on what's important to them in a one to one context, or as part of group coaching, or team coaching, where you can create safe spaces for people to talk about things that are important to them, get to know each other, build that trust and increase team performance as well.

Erica D'Eramo 28:51

Yeah, I think having, well, obviously, having a coach can be so valuable. In so many different elements of life, it just seems really well suited for this as well, because of a lot of what we've already spoken about, right? That coaching is about sort of that self discovery that it has so much agency about it that the client gets to lead the way and choose the path that's right for them. So in a society and a world where we're constantly being told how to conform, how to make ourselves smaller or more flexible to conform into these workplaces or these cultures organizations. Coaching can really kind of help strip some of that back and show individuals what it is that they want. While a lot of my clients come to me initially thinking that I want to be happier in my job, we can sometimes pull away the in my job part and just focus on I want to be happier and sometimes it's turns out that I want to be happier in my current job is not feasible. And we can explore what other options look like if the workplace will continue to be inflexible or toxic, or not conducive to thriving. So yeah, coaching really just goes straight to what is the end goal? What is it that you want to achieve, and if that's happiness, if that's better mental health, living alongside menopause in a way that's sustainable, I think coaching is such a great, great support mechanism for that.

Sarah Utley 30:37

I agree. For me personally, I felt very dislocated, both from my own sense of self, and at times my own mental well being and that dislocation has been very unnerving. I've lost a sense of identity. So I've worked with my own coach on who is Sarah, who is my authentic self and being really bold about this is me, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what it means to people around me and how you get the best out of me. Coach has enabled me to be braver about saying this and being proud of it. If I can help other women and organizations and people impacted by menopause more broadly, to feel the same way, then, I've done my job.

Erica D'Eramo 31:46

Yeah, I think it's a really inspiring focus area for your coaching practice. So, what resources are currently available, whether that's for companies or for individuals?

Sarah Utley 31:59

There are lots of resources, more so now than what there have been let's say decade ago, but you've got to go and find them still. I can only talk, again, about the UK. Interestingly, Parliament are debating support for people experiencing menopause next week. So I'm really keen to see what comes out of the debate in Parliament and whether they change any of the laws, Employment Law within the UK. Currently, menopause itself is not recognized in law. It's not a disability. But you know, some of the the impacts of the menopause such a stress and anxiety is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. So I'll be very keen to see what comes out of that, because that could give a really clear steer for organizations on what they actually need to do to provide the framework and compliance in this area. Reaching out to your doctor if you are experiencing physical or mental impacts of menopause. There's lots of societies online and who signpost to support services as well. Your HR team within an organization will always be there to help and provide support, and a sound board and a lot of companies offer employee assistance programs as well. I think coaching, obviously, we've found the job impact coaching a lot. That's always available as well.

Erica D'Eramo 33:37

Yeah, all great resources. For those in the US, there's also if you go to menopause.org, that's the North American menopause society, which is focused on advocacy and awareness as well. I guess it's good to know that in the US it is not current, menopause is not currently considered under Disability Employment Law. So under the ADA in the US, it does not require, what that means is that it does not require accommodations from the workplace by law. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do to provide accommodations for the benefit of your own business and organization. But yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think we discussed that, my perception on this is that the conversation is more advanced in the UK than perhaps it is in the US. So, it's great that you reached out and we can raise awareness for our audience on the podcast, which we've got audience members kind of around the world. So, just to close out would you have any... I know we tend to avoid advice right? Something that you and I probably share that we avoid advising people because we'll never know their personal circumstances, everyone is so uniquely different. We fundamentally believe that everyone has their own right answers that we try to help them find. That being said, for this audience, are there any insights or kind of general advice that you would share with people that are perhaps struggling with this change in their life right now, or even for those who have loved ones that might be struggling with this?

Sarah Utley 35:36

What I say here, you're not alone. There will be someone you know who's experiencing multiples, and be brave and seek help. I think those are the two things, talking is a great healer. Whether that's through coaching or counseling, with your friends, or your partner. Be bold, be brave, find somebody to talk to, whether that's HR at work, or some woman within your life. But you're not alone. There'll be lots of other people who are experiencing this as well.

Erica D'Eramo 36:15

And how about for in the workplace, with managers or for leaders? Do you have any kind of closing comments?

Sarah Utley 36:24

For leaders, I would say, put this on the leadership agenda and talk about it. Start talking to women about it. Start listening to women and how this affects them and start normalizing it. Conversation, it all comes down to having conversations, not being afraid to have those conversations.

Erica D'Eramo 36:51

Yeah, if we look at retention numbers and we talk about retention numbers, and companies are looking at why can't we meet X and Y metrics, and why our pulse survey results so poor. Go that next level and start asking the questions and finding out what's really going on with people. Some of this might be hidden under there and just not been discussed because of past stigma around discussing health issues or issues that create the perception of vulnerability, even if it's not really vulnerability. So yeah, I think that's great talking about it, opening up the discussion, and doing away with that stigmatization.

Sarah Utley 37:48

I've heard of employers who refuse to make changes to uniforms, so that women that come forward and say, I'm going through the menopause, this uniform doesn't allow me to breathe, and therefore when I get hot flashes it's really uncomfortable. I've heard there are some employers that hadn't been willing to change their uniforms to make accommodations for that. And yet, I take real heart that there are some other organizations such as, I believe, Marks & Spencers who have just said, you can order as many different types of uniforms to suit your needs. That's just showing an awareness that not everybody wants to wear the same clothes. People go through different stages of their life and need different things from something as simple as a uniform. That can be transformative to how a woman feels about working for that employer. It can change Net Promoter scores, simple adjustments. You don't need to wear your heart on your sleeve and go all out. Incremental, small changes based on listening to what women really want, will make all the difference to lift experiences of women and colleagues random.

Erica D'Eramo 39:11

Yeah, I agree. And again, while this conversation is centered women, we also want to be inclusive to have what we mentioned trans men, non binary individuals, this affects a variety of different people. But we can say that more than 50% of the population, slightly more than 50% of the population, will at some point in some way, likely experience menopause. So, that is a massive number of people. With that, I just want to thank you and ask how people can get in touch with you if they wanted to work with you or gain your insights either through consulting for organizations or coaching?

Sarah Utley 40:07

I run a business called Momentum People. You can get in touch with me through my website or my email address, which I will leave with you, Erica. I would really welcome people reaching out to find out more about the menopause and how I can help them on their journey to live along-side menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 40:30

Great, thank you so much, Sarah. So we'll have Sarah's contact info in the podcast notes. We would invite you to follow us on our social media platforms to kind of learn more about these topics, stay engaged in the conversation. Two Piers is on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. You can always visit our website if you want to reach out and that's www.twopiersconsulting.com. We look forward to seeing you at our next podcast episode which will likely be in season three in 2022. Thanks, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

So What Exactly Is Coaching Anyway?

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

In this week's episode we sit down with return guest Alisa Tijerina who switches it up and asks us all of her questions about coaching: what it is, who it's meant for, how to find a coach, and more. If you've ever wondered what exactly coaching entails and whether it's right for you, this is your episode!

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, Season Two. Today we're going to switch it up a little, we have a return guest, our first return guest, Alisa Tijerina, who joined us at the beginning of the pandemic, is back to join us again. And today we're going to change roles a bit. So instead of me asking the questions, Alisa has a bunch of questions for me about coaching, and what coaching is and involves. And so we thought we should just record this conversation and make it available for our podcast listeners, because we get a lot of questions about what is coaching.

Erica D'Eramo 0:54

So welcome, Alisa.

Alisa Tijerina 0:57

Thank you, Erica. I'm glad to be back.

Erica D'Eramo 0:59

Yeah, it's good to have you here. So what are some of your questions?

Alisa Tijerina 1:04

So I know you're a coach, tell me what, what is a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 1:07

Yeah, I mean, we get this question all the time. A coach can mean a lot of different things. In this context, we're not talking about a sports coach, because that's somebody who kind of gives people directions and, and kind of tells people what to do. And that's actually the opposite of the type of coaching that we're talking about. So what we're talking about is what the International Coaching Federation defines as partnering with clients, so a coach partners with their client, in a thought provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential. So coaching, as defined by ICF, often unlocks previously untapped sources of imagination, productivity, and leadership. So it's really about two peers, there's not a hierarchy in coaching, two peers coming together. And the coach can shine a light for the client. I really liked an analogy presented to me by one of my instructors, that, you know, the coach walks alongside the client and just shines a flashlight to help the client decide where they want to go and what their decisions are. But it's very much client driven and client led, and the coach is there to help facilitate.

Alisa Tijerina 2:24

Very cool. Okay, so what is not coaching?

Erica D'Eramo 2:28

Yeah, there are a lot of things that look like coaching that are not actually coaching. So sometimes what we do in coaching can look a lot like therapy, because there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of introspection, but it's not therapy. So therapy looks backwards, right, therapy is looking at previous events and experiences and, and it is in the context of working with a professional therapist who is certified. And, and sometimes in a clinical setting. So therapy is more, you know, backwards looking to address current issues. Whereas coaching is very much forward, focused, looking at your goals and what you need to do to be able to achieve those goals. The other thing that coaching is not that it often gets confused with is it's not mentoring, because again, mentoring has a hierarchy to it like a mentor is usually a more experienced person, a mentor will give advice, coaches really kind of try to stay away from giving advice, because then it's coming from the coach. And the coach is essentially telling the client, I know better than you. And we don't want that in coaching. There's a great TED talk that addresses this by someone in the coaching worlds called Michael Bungay Stanier. And his TED Talk is called The Advice Monster. So I highly recommend looking at The Advice Monster, you'll probably never view advice the same way again. And then coaching is not consulting. So again, consulting is kind of giving solutions and being the expert. And a lot of times when people think that they're looking for a coach, what they're actually looking for is someone to tell them what the answers are. So if that's what you're looking for, you should probably find a mentor or a consultant. But if what you want is to discover the answers, and have someone help guide you through that, through kind of a developed process, then a coach is a great place to start.

Alisa Tijerina 4:30

Wow, thanks. I didn't realize there were that many different options. So tell me about coaches. What, what is, what kind of coaches are there and what kind of coach are you?

Erica D'Eramo 4:44

There's really a massive spectrum of types of coaches. We hear a lot about life coaches. We certainly hear a lot about you know, sports coaches, which we said are kind of excluded from this conversation. But there are fitness coaches who again will pair you know, partner with a client to reach their goals. And there are people who work in very specific niches. So stuff like transition, transitioning into different careers, transitioning from perhaps taking a career break to going back into the workforce, transitioning into a different life change. So maybe having kids and trying to balance work in life, or even transitioning geographically. So one coach that I know specializes in people repatriating after expat assignments or international assignments. So there can be very specific niches. My niche that I am focused on is kind of twofold. I like to work with clients who are in really challenging work environments, specifically, people who are kind of one of the only, and then name your demographic. So one of the only women, one of the only people of color, so people who are kind of facing pretty challenging environments. And then the other piece of my, you know, client pool is people who are working to change that. So people working in a diversity, equity and inclusion space to try to, you know, make change, sustainable change in their organizations. So those are those are the two areas that I'm focused on.

Alisa Tijerina 6:21

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. So another question. What, so do you have to get certifications like what what makes you a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 6:30

There are plenty of coaches out there who don't go through any sort of certification. And, and there are pros and cons, sometimes it's very specific, and they don't need that. And a lot of times that type of coach may be providing a mixture of coaching and consulting, or coaching and mentoring. I think that there is some value in finding coaches that do have a certification for a couple different reasons. So in order to get a certification through a body, like the international coaching Federation, or ICF, you have to go through a really rigorous curriculum. The curriculum I did was 70 hours of class time. And there are really standard competencies that they make sure that you fully understand and embed. And not only that, you have to do a lot of back and forth coaching, so you get to be the client quite a bit. So you're both growing, because you're getting lots of coaching, you're receiving lots of coaching, but you also understand then what it's like to be sitting in that client seat, and you can really empathize with the client experience. There's also some compe... competency thresholds, so you have to be able to record and submit a transcript that is assessed by the governing body and sit through a knowledge assessment test. So you know, there are some there's some thresholds to me as far as competency goes, and accumulation of you know, a certain set number of hours. But I think one of the most important things about working with someone who certifies through a governing body is just that they have to sign up to a code of ethics. So they're held accountable to a code of ethics, and there is recourse if there's a breach of that code of ethics. So that's one thing that I think is really valuable.

Alisa Tijerina 8:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I, when I think about coaching in the business context, it makes me I feel like it's got a little bit of a negative connotation. Is, you know, like, somebody has a problem, and then they need a coach like, so. Can you, you know, tell me your thoughts on that?

Erica D'Eramo 8:38

Yeah, it's been seen as sort of like a remedial solution in the past that, you know, somebody is kind of ready to get kicked out the door, they've had complaints filed or they've had performance issues, and sort of as a last resort we'll hire a coach for them. That's becoming a thing of the past. I think coaching was not really intended for that necessarily, and, and it presents all sorts of problems when when you have a client who perhaps doesn't necessarily have the backing and support of their organization. Coaching really does best when you have someone who has a high potential, has a high commitment, wants to do the work, knows that they want to grow and has goals. So when it's goal oriented, and positively focused on achieving those goals, rather than rectifying kind of negative things. So if I am going to work with a client, I do an intake to make sure that we're in the right headspace to be able to have an effective relationship and that should you know, that's pretty typical.

Alisa Tijerina 9:46

Yeah, yeah. I guess it is a lot of work for the for the client to and I guess the pair. Okay, so now say I'm ready to sign up to get a coach. What should I expect?

Erica D'Eramo 10:03

So, coaching engagements can take a lot of different forms. But generally they'll follow a framework that involves you know, that intake, understanding each other, and setting goals and then setting kind of a pathway to get to those goals and doing lots of check ins. So that that's kind of a typical coaching engagement, and it will usually last over several months. That's not to say that there can't be one on... one off coaching sessions. I've certainly been the client in plenty of one off coaching sessions, and I've, I've done plenty of one off coaching sessions. But when there can be an arc to the coaching engagement, it can be really powerful, because you can see, you know, over the span of weeks and months, how well the progress is being made. And you can redirect. So a lot of times what you think you want to focus on with your coach will evolve, and you realize, oh, that wasn't, that might have been the presenting issue. But that's not the real issue. So it can look different. And if you work with a company, if if you want to find a coach and you go through your company to find a coach, and the company sponsors that a lot of times there will be like a 360 involved, that speaks to some of your stakeholders, some of your peers, direct reports, your manager, etc. so that you get a full picture of what the perceptions are, for your strengths and weaknesses. And that will usually have, you know, a close out 360 as well to see what kind of progress you've made and potentially updates with the employer. So so it can look a little different if it's a corporate coaching, engagement, or if it's an individual private coaching engagement.

Alisa Tijerina 11:48

So I actually got assigned a coach through work, everybody did on my entire team, and they were doing it through the whole company. And my experience with that. I mean, the person was nice, but we were on way different time zones. They were in Europe, I was in America, we had three conversations, I didn't feel like I got anything out of it.

Erica D'Eramo 12:09

Yeah.

Alisa Tijerina 12:09

It just felt like a waste, it felt like a waste of money, personally. And that was maybe two to three years ago. And then just this year, I got put into a different type of role that's outside of my kinda what my past expertise had has been in, and I've asked for a coach. And it's just like, so hearing you say this, it I was I was not in a space where I felt like I needed a coach and it wasn't... and that experience just was wasn't really helpful. And now I'm in a space where I feel like I want it and I'm pulling it...

Erica D'Eramo 12:48

And probably struggling to get...

Alisa Tijerina 12:50

...and struggling to get one! Yeah. And struggling to get one. So how do I get one?

Erica D'Eramo 12:54

Yeah, I mean, these are all good questions.

Alisa Tijerina 12:56

Where do you find them?

Erica D'Eramo 12:57

Um, first, I just want to go back and explore the previous experience you had with coaching, though, which I think is not atypical. And one of the most important things that you establish in coaching upfront in a relationship is trust, and safety. And so if you guys are dialing in from very different time zones, and perhaps just like it's a bit rushed, or you don't have that, you know, trust and safety built in, it can feel transactional, and you don't develop that like real deep seated trust, where you can be super vulnerable, be super authentic with that person. So things like, you know, I would never tell somebody to do a coaching session when they're hungry, you know, those base needs to be met and needs have to be met, it takes a lot out of you to be on the client side and the coaching side. So you really want to be like rested and fed when you can be. So yeah, that I'm sorry, you had a negative experience. I think we're trying to kind of change the perception there. How you can find a coach, though, is, is a great question. Um, a lot of times, companies will say, you know, we don't need to hire an external coach just find, find the coaching internally. There is some expert in the company that can help you. And I understand that that's like well intended advice. And also, it's probably a bit misguided.

Alisa Tijerina 14:23

That is exactly what I'm being told now.

Erica D'Eramo 14:26

Yeah. I'm not surprised. Um, I think that you run into all sorts of interesting complications when that person is within your organization because it puts in questions, sometimes the trust and the objectivity because perhaps they are within your reporting line. That's never something you really want to have. I think leaders should certainly develop coaching habits and coaching mentality. I think that that's kind of an element of being a great leader and your clients should not be your direct reports because there's a absolute conflict of interest there. So it introduces potential conflicts of interest. And also that person has not been trained in how to handle coaching, and how to progress, you know, a client. So I would push back on that. And I think if you want to find a coach, and your organization doesn't have an avenue for you to pursue that you can find one on your own. There are plenty of resources out there to find coaches, there are plenty of niches, like we discussed to meet exactly the needs that you're looking for.

Alisa Tijerina 15:36

Well, so Erica, you've known me for a long time, you know that I'm pretty cautious, cost conscious? How much do coaches cost?

Erica D'Eramo 15:45

Another great question. It really can kind of span a very broad spectrum. So in corporate engagements, and with executive coaches, you know, like the CEOs of some of the, you know, Fortune 10 companies have coaches. And the sky is going to be the limit for what those engagements cost. But that's really representative of the value they're bringing, both to the leader and to the organization. If you're on a very tight budget, coaching is not inaccessible, we would not, especially for Two Piers, that's one of our, that's one of kind of our guiding principles is that we want these resources to be accessible. So there are plenty of coaches out there that are pursuing their certification, they are very skilled coaches, they've gone through all the curriculum, all the mentor coaching, the practice, etc. And they need to accumulate some coaching hours to pursue their various levels of certification. So sometimes people will offer significantly reduced rates, and you're still getting great coaching. And sometimes they'll offer pro bono rates as well, or like a barter for for coaching. Generally, for an engagement, I would say, if it's spanning a few months, it can be anywhere from several $100 to several $1,000 for an individual client. And it really just depends on what the niche is, and, and kind of how much experience that coach has.

Alisa Tijerina 17:21

Okay, so just thinking about my coaching experience, I, I had I enjoyed talking to the person, I felt like we got along, but how do you know if that coach is right for you?

Erica D'Eramo 17:36

Yeah. There are a lot of kind of elements that you should be checking, when you first talk to a potential coach. A lot of coaches will offer sort of a free consultation just to see, is this a good match. And coaches have very different styles. And, you know, when you listen to different coaching sessions, as part of the training, sometimes you think like, Whoa, that's, that's quite abrasive, but it maybe works really well for that client, and they like it. And in other cases, it's, you think, oh, that's really just so gentle and kind of passive. And but again, if that works for the client, that's great. So it's really wonderful that there's so many different styles out there. What I would say, though, is don't take it for granted that if you find an experienced coach who's really well regarded that their style will be the right one for you. And if their style's not the right one for you, that's okay, too. So I'd say you know, meet with them, see what their style is, you can ask them, what's your style of coaching? And how do you hold people accountable? And if they're quite firm, and that's not what you want, then, you know, maybe tell them that that's not your style. And with your previous experiences of just having nice conversations, that tells me that, you know, you potentially weren't doing check ins to assess how you were progressing against the goals. So a lot of coaching involves, you know, how are we doing against our goals? Do we need to reevaluate? Are these goals still the right goals? Is this working for you? So, yeah, that's an important element.

Alisa Tijerina 19:06

So why did you pursue coaching?

Erica D'Eramo 19:09

Yeah, I pursued coaching because I really wanted to help people. And through the first few years of Two Piers, I offered coaching and I would have engagements with clients that I would, you know, provide them support, they would have issues that they were facing, and they would ask me for advice. And I thought that that was coaching. And I wanted to become better at that. So I pursued my certification through Coach Rice through Rice University. And what I discovered through that program was that what I was doing was probably more like mentoring and consulting, and not really the client driven coaching that can be so transformative. So we were certainly fixing problems and we were certainly and kind of addressing them and finding solutions. But it wasn't the type of coaching that we learn through through certification. And now that I've done that, and learned what coaching is and how transformative it can be, and been in the client seat so much through that process, I'm just even more committed to the practice of coaching. I'm such a believer in it. And I think I can really help people to enact the change that they're trying to enact through coaching.

Alisa Tijerina 20:31

Wow, Erica, this has been really helpful. Thank you for sharing and answering all my questions. I really appreciate it.

Erica D'Eramo 20:37

Yeah, these are great questions. I mean, you have these questions, and other people have these questions. And I certainly get asked a lot like, so what what exactly is coaching? And what type of coach are you, and fundamentally, like coaching, like we said, it's partnering with a client to achieve their goals. And the coach I am is the is, you know, the coach that my client needs in the moment. And, you know, the types of people who could benefit from coaching are pretty much everyone. So if you're looking for a coach, I recommend reaching out to us, Two Piers. And if we're not the right people for you, we can certainly try to hook you up with other really talented coaches. And the ICF website. So that's a great resource to find certified coaches and learn a bit more about their style and what their specialties are. So it's a great resource. Yeah. So thanks for joining us today Alisa and asking me all these great questions.

Alisa Tijerina 21:33

Thank you for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 21:34

And for anyone listening that wants to know more about Two Piers Consulting, we have plenty of information on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And you can find us on the social media platforms at Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you're enjoying the podcast and finding value in it, then please give us a rating and give us a review and we'll talk to you next time.

Productivity and ADHD

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. Today's episode is all about distraction, productivity, and those of us working in the times of the coronavirus pandemic, and also with ADHD. Today, we have a guest joining us, Miranda Moore. She's a freelance writer and a journalist. And she's going to join us to discuss her shared experiences around ADHD, neurodiversity, and productivity.

Erica D'Eramo 0:48

So hi, Miranda, thanks for joining us.

Miranda Moore 0:51

Hi, Erica, thank you so much for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:53

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Miranda Moore 0:56

Um, well, as you said, I'm a freelance writer and journalist. I'm currently living in South Florida in Palm Beach County with my fiance and our two cats. Um, prior to freelancing, I was a staff investigative reporter with a local newspaper down here. And then before becoming a journalist, I actually worked as a paralegal in federal prosecution and human rights prosecutions. And then before that, I was in the Peace Corps. So I've done a few things and lived a few places. And yeah, happy to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 1:28

Cool, that's quite a diversity of experience. And I think some of that will come into play as we talk about what works for us. And you and I have, you know, different type of work environments and different type of work schedules, and yet probably a lot of shared experiences around how we handle our workload productivity and doing that with ADHD. So I think my my first question for you is for you, specifically, how does ADHD manifest. Like, what does it look like? Particularly around productivity?

Miranda Moore 2:03

Yeah, um, so for me, my ADHD, it's sort of been like, I sort of bounce between these two extremes of periods of high productivity, to periods of low productivity. And so it tends to be very cyclical. How often that cycle lasts, or how often it repeats sort of just depends on whatever external circumstances I'm facing, whether it's like deadlines, or pressures, just dealing with stuff at home, or the rest of my workload or whatever. I've my biggest challenge has always been executive function tasks. So specifically working ahead on things and being able to plan ahead and sort of execute things in a reasonable way, I tend to wait till the very last minute, I'm a chronic procrastinator, for sure, and so I'm usually okay with prioritizing where I can prioritize pretty well, but it's just like, you know, putting pen to paper and actually getting stuff done. And actually doing the things that I've prioritized is what I struggle most with. And so, sometimes, like, for my bosses, it's been sort of confusing, because for big stuff, if I'm kind of like, Yeah, I know, this is a thing I have to do. But I'm not necessarily like, bought into it in a big way. It can be a struggle for them, because they're just like, okay, but you're just not doing anything versus when I'm really interested in something, that's the only thing I can do. And so that hyperfocus makes it look like I'm very engaged and passionate, or whatever. But, you know, I think a lot of bosses just didn't understand that that's just like a lack of balance in my brain, sort of where I go between these two extremes. And so the way I usually got stuff done that I didn't particularly want to do was just waiting till the last minute and then rushing to get it all done in this sort of like flurry of activity.

Erica D'Eramo 4:03

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 4:03

Yeah. And so it was easy to fudge when you're like, in an academic setting, like when you're in school, or whatever, like, I don't think a teacher really, you know, I think, Well, I think the the kind of product that you're producing, doesn't really make a difference, if at least for me, if I did it spread out through several weeks, or if I did it at the last minute, it would kind of look the same. But when you're in a work setting, like you can't fudge that anymore. Like it's just you can tell when it's just you haven't put in the work continuously. And so that's where I've struggled a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 4:35

Yeah, there's also the element of having to be seated in front of people being kind of watched while you need to be productive, or at least need to be pretending to be productive. And I know for me sitting in desk jobs, that was a lot of the struggle, in that I needed the pressure in order to be able to focus that I needed a short amount of time not to drag things out, and not to get distracted. So that pressure was really helpful for me. But then it also meant this dread of having to kind of fill that time up until pressure point...

Miranda Moore 5:10

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 5:11

...of and appear to be busy when I knew that this wasn't going to be my best work because I wasn't super engaged, or if you know enthusiastic about it, I wasn't hyper focused. And I wasn't in crunch time yet. And I, I always thought it was interesting that I would describe myself and you know, even my mother would describe me as working really well under pressure, and that I thrive under pressure. And I'm realizing now that was really just my ADHD manifesting even in childhood, you know, pulling all nighters in middle school or high school to get stuff done. And it was because I sort of needed that pressure to focus.

Miranda Moore 5:50

Yeah, same. Same with me, and that with me, that sort of all or nothing, like I'm either working nonstop, or I'm not working at all, it just leads to this, like, burnout to me. So for me, it's like, it's not necessarily that I'm doing nothing, it's just like, I almost need recovery time, a little bit. And so it's been a struggle for me to, to approach work in a more balanced way, where you're not just like kind of in just a panic state all the time just to get stuff done.

Erica D'Eramo 6:23

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 6:23

Yeah. And another way that like ADHD really manifests for me is with my sleep cycle, like, I know that the ADHD and sleep cycle is, you know, that sort of, a lot of people struggle with both of those things. And for, like, delayed sleep phase can be a common symptom of ADHD. And that's, that is the case for me. And so kind of my natural work hours are like much later in the day, like, if it were up to me, rather than working like a nine to five, I would work like two to 10. Like that would be my preference. And so but every job I've ever had sort of forced me into this nine to five or eight to five kind of schedule. And but if my brain just doesn't shut down, in order to get to sleep in time, or if my brain just can't start working until much later than, like, several hours after I'm at work, it's just I have several hours at work where I'm not productive, either because I'm sleep deprived, or, because like, my brain is just not kicking off until much later in the day. And so, you know, but then, if I am working, like, you know, my brain finally does start working later in the day, I start, I get started on something, and I don't want to stop by five o'clock or whatever. And so because it's only like three or four hours of productive time, by the time everybody's going home. So a lot of times, I would just sit through and keep working almost like a kind of penance or whatever, it's because I didn't feel like I was getting enough done earlier in the day. And so yeah, a lot of times I would put in 12 hour days, it's not like it would be 12 hours of solid work, but it would be 12 hours of physically being there. Just to be able to get everything done that other folks, I feel like were getting done in in eight hours. But it just took me a lot longer just to get my brain to catch up with the daily schedule.

Erica D'Eramo 8:15

Yeah. I, I feel like there have been multiple studies now conducted on how society views, morning people versus evening people and how hard wired our brains are actually for when we are most productive. And so you can kind of force us into being morning people. If we're not, but we just that'll never, that's sort of hardwired into our chemistry in some ways. For for some people, I think there's it's obviously a distribution. But typically, at least in Western society, that morning, that morning Lark, you know, the early bird gets the worm, there's all these. There's all this kind of morality around, getting up early and being productive early and showing up in the office early. Even if you leave, you know, even if you leave at three o'clock in the afternoon, if you got in early, then that sort of is an indicator that you're one of the productive people. And I was the same way in that I would get in early but it would take me a long time to ramp up my productivity. I would get in early if I was forced to but not kind of of my own volition. But then I would usually hit my stride right as everyone else was packing up in the office. And I would then stay way past dinnertime sometimes till like eight o'clock you're the only person in the office but you're really kind of finally getting that meatier part done or I would even just take the work home and do it at home. So it looked like I was putting in long hours but it was really just around my peak hitting much later in the day for me. And that wasn't always an option. You know, a lot of the a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast actually are working in industries that have no flexibility around your sleep schedule. So either, you know, 12 hour shifts from 6am to 6pm. Or sometimes people are working, you know, weird, wonky shifts like noon to midnight. And I think that that can be really challenging, especially pre ADHD diagnosis, you know, if people have this have this sort of tendency in the background and haven't acknowledged it, then it just shows up as like sleeping through your alarm, or being really groggy and beating yourself up about it.

Miranda Moore 10:42

Yeah, I felt like a lot of, you know, insecurity around, like, you know, if I get to work late, just because I couldn't get myself up or, you know, whatever, I just wasn't getting enough sleep. And eventually, that would catch up with me and lead to kind of prolonged periods of like, maybe I was physically there, but I just mentally wasn't there. And so yeah, it was a lot of years of beating myself up and criticizing myself. And you know, other people can do this, why can't I? You know, and it really wasn't until I got my ADHD diagnosis. And I realized that was a part of it, that a lot of the light bulbs went off for me. And so my approach since then, since finding out has been sort of, you know, let's not like I have the flexibility, thankfully, to just not, you know, I was able to create my own work schedule, and able to do those things that sort of lean into my brain chemistry more than work against it. I, you know, I'm lucky that I no longer have to work a set schedule, if I decide not to, you know, rather than trying to artificially force myself into a schedule that just does not work with my brain, that being able to just appreciate it and go with it, and kind of let my brain do the like, lead the way a little bit in terms of when I work and how long I work. And...

Erica D'Eramo 12:08

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 12:09

That's that's helped me just mentally just in terms of my emotional health as well.

Erica D'Eramo 12:13

Yeah, I mean, when I finally had someone recommend to me, the book Delivered From Distraction. And I, they said, you know, you should probably read this, some of the things that you're talking to me about some of the things you've been struggling with, you might actually have ADHD, and I thought, No, I, that doesn't, I was never hyperactive, never had the H. That doesn't, probably doesn't sound like me. I went through engineering school, I made through engineering school. And, and then I read the book. And I, I think, you know, I've talked to you about this, that I literally started crying because I realized that all of this emotional energy I'd put into beating myself up for years for decades, through my childhood, my formative years, because I couldn't get up early because I couldn't stay focused, because I was super forgetful. All these little moral digs that I would give myself, were actually a part of this very complex human brain that that came with the bright sides as well that I would were some of my favorite parts about myself that I would never want to give up. And that just that realization of, you don't like this piece about yourself. And yet, it's tied to this other piece of you that you absolutely love about yourself, would you want to give them both up if you could, and I realized, like, no, I absolutely wouldn't. And it kind of just allowed me to put down this weight of judgment that I kept having against myself, and then just start acting logically, like, like you said, leaning into it in that not not fighting those natural tendencies and just creating the structure around them in my life, that would allow me to be most effective. So part of that wasn't feasible at the time I was working when I had that realization, I was working one of those kind of 6am to 6pm jobs offshore 28 day hitches and really struggling. I mean, that's why it pushed me to the point of finally saying, like, Okay, I need some help Let me read this book. But at that point, I decided I am going to set it as a goal to set my own hours one day, and that's how, you know, that's how I started working towards starting my own business and, and having a bit more say over how I spend my time when I spend it where I spend it where I put my energy.

Miranda Moore 14:48

Yeah, I I didn't necessarily set out to decide that, you know, I just want to pick my own hours and I want to, you know, set my own kind of work patterns and things. I fell into it because I was actually I mean, if I don't know, if anyone listening like pays attention to, like the news media industry, in the newspaper industry specifically, it's in kind of a volatile place in terms of its own kind of ability to exist at all. And so at the very start of the pandemic, not because of the pandemic, but just at the beginning of it, I my job was eliminated, it was because of a corporate merger didn't have anything to do with the pandemic is just, it was just weird timing. And so my job was eliminated. And then I went from, like, you know, being at the office 12 hours a day to all of a sudden, like I, you know, have no structure whatsoever. And I always responded, I always found that I needed external structure, just because of my inability to stay organized, kind of and stay on top of my, I needed those external pressures for the dopamine to like, like, motivate me to get anything done. But without that, I really had to do a lot of soul searching. And that was actually when I got my diagnosis was a couple months after I was laid off. And I was, you know, kind of looking at different treatment options. I had suspected for years, but sort of got like, went to get the official diagnosis. And that sort of in between time after I got laid off, and I was just taking time to figure out what I wanted, you know, and even is this an industry, the news industry that I even want to be a part of, because it chews people up and spits them out and kind of ruthlessly and I feel like that's, there's a lot of talk right now in the journalism industry at large about burnout. And a lot of it's because, you know, people have been reporting on the pandemic, and they've been reporting from home and they're, you know, there's a lot of trauma and, you know, there's so many hours they're putting in, but burnout was a problem before. And it's, it's especially difficult when you're neurodivergent. Because I feel like so many of these challenges that journalists are talking about, like, if it's hell for neurotypical people, what do you think it is for people who operate on a burnout cycle, like their brains just do that, you know? And so, that's one reason like I wanted to come on this podcast was just to, you know, so we could get out there, like, for other journalists, who may also be struggling with this, even beyond the normal burnout cycle that's sort of expected isn't and encouraged, as a part of the news industry, not that that's healthy, but you know, it is what it is. Um, and so I wanted to at least have the, you know, put the awareness out there that, like, there are other journalists who, you know, have ADHD and all of the challenges you may be facing are not, you, and it's both of this industry, but it's also just, I don't know, for those of us who are prone to burnout cycles anyway, this industry is just particularly harsh. And so I found that freelancing, where I can create my own hours, and I have the freedom to take breaks if I need to, I don't need to, like get approval, because my staff job, I had 15 days period, that was sick leave and personal leave, that was all I got for an entire year. And I read a study that like, I think it was based in Australia, but still, I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable, where it's like people with ADHD tend to take I thought it was like 17 more days off per year than their neurotypical counterparts. And I'm like, well, that's my entire leave allowance. That's vacations. It's sick leave, that's everything that I was allowed. And so but this is, you know, this is practice and it's allowed. And I think that a lot of my being able to decouple like, productivity expectations, in like, a capitalist sense, like in sort of a cutthroat, sort of, you know, you have to meet these impossible expectations, or you're not going to have a job anymore, kind of this way of thinking, like decoupling myself from that has been, like, as beneficial as an ADHD diagnosis, honestly. So in terms of, of being able to recreate balance my life again.

Erica D'Eramo 19:19

Yeah, I mean, especially in America I feel like we have a very interesting relationship with sort of that grind culture. And it's not it's not just America, it shows up in there are quite a few countries that celebrate and cultures that celebrate sort of that burnout, that grind.

Miranda Moore 19:41

It's almost like a moral thing, like, it's a symbol of, of, like piety, or like morality or something that you've worked yourself to the bone and I'm like, but for what, like, newspaper reporters are, like, terribly paid like, it's, you know, I mean, I was one of the highest paid people in my newsroom, my editor said, but I was still like making less than what like a public school teacher would make. You know, and it's just like the the wages are so suppressed for for journalists. And yet, you're still expected to kill yourself every day and like, experience trauma and internalize that, and they only give you like 15 days off a year. And then it's just like, so it's impossible. My brain was so overloaded the entire time, I worked in a staff job, and I just don't think now that I'm freelancing, and I'm able to kind of create my own schedule and hours. And, you know, it's, I don't think I I'm not sure I could ever go back to a staff job, honestly.

Erica D'Eramo 20:37

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:37

And I'm very lucky that I have the privilege to be able to do that. And it is, you know, I need to admit the privilege, I feel like because...

Miranda Moore 20:45

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:46

...yeah, like, not everyone works in an industry where they can do that. And not everyone has the freedom and I'm like, I have a partner who makes enough to support both of us. And so that's if I didn't have that, I'd probably be still be looking for a staff job and, and kind of still living that burnout cycle, just to make ends meet, but I'm very lucky that, that I have the privilege to be able to create my own work schedule. So.

Erica D'Eramo 21:13

Yeah, my privilege absolutely has allowed me to go out and do what I'm passionate about, regardless of whether it is financially stable or not. So the combination of having worked in an in an industry that paid very well, for many years, and having a partner who's fully employed has enabled me to kind of do this thing that I'm really passionate about, and also allows me to choose my own hours. So one element that I found, as I transitioned into kind of defining my own work hours, my own objectives was that I tend to my one of my biggest challenges right now is just that I tend to want to do everything at once. And I have so many different ideas that pop in my head. And I am so inspired about different things. And there's just this very non linear connection between it all and it's kind of putting, taking all that and forcing it into some sort of hopper or routine and putting structure around it so that I'm not just kind of overwhelmed by all the things I'm trying to do at once. That's been that's been a growth, especially with the pandemic. And, you know, we moved, I uprooted us and took out all of the structure and all of the supports that I had in my life. And we were staying in a hotel room for several months. And I kind of had this moment in February, where it all just became a bit too much. And that was the inspiration for why I wanted to record this podcast episode and have you on, because at that point, it was like I was just trying to do way too much. And it was kind of all hitting this bottleneck of how much I could execute. And I had to have a bit of an intervention with myself so that I could at least be effective.

Miranda Moore 23:21

Yeah, it was tough like because once I was laid off, and then I sort of did a lot of soul searching and decided that you know, I wanted to freelance I didn't want to go back to a staff job. We had to move because environment is really a big trigger for my distractibility, like a newsrooms are very open work environments. And so there's always like, there's always breaking news, there's always, you know, some big story happening and a lot of people running around. And so it was tough to be productive in the office. But then when I was at home like we, we because we relocated down here from my job, and then my fiance at that time transitioned to fully remote work back then when we moved. And so we got our apartment where it's it was, he had his office where he could close the door, but then everything else was shared living space. And then when I was all of a sudden working from home, it was impossible. I had like the two cats are climbing all over me and like whatever he was coming in and out and it was just and for me environment is just, I have to have, I have to be able to close the door. Like if I'm really going to be productive. Like, even in the newsroom, I would find a huddle room, like we have these little meeting rooms. Every time it was available, I would be in there. Because I just I needed to shut the door and I had no door to shut. And so we just decided that like if I'm going to do this as a freelancer, we needed a bigger place. And so we had to find a place where you know, and again, it's another thing of privilege where I just, you know, I'm lucky that I'm able to do that not everybody can but uh you know and so we found a place where I thankfully can close the door and I've found I'm able to do a lot more and produce more work and contribute more to the, you know, to the household and everything. And it's just it's, yeah, so it's been worth it. It's but it's a trade off, you know, like, yes, my productivity is increased, but it's also like, at a cost.

Erica D'Eramo 25:18

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 25:18

You know. For me, it's worth it because I love what I do.

Erica D'Eramo 25:21

Yeah. Yeah, at the time we changing environment, you know, we were trying to move into a house. So there was no immediate like relief, aside from going and sitting in my car. There was no, like, immediate relief. But what I did do that was helpful was I sort of reimplemented some of the processes and systems that I, I used, really, when I back when I worked offshore, and I didn't have any flexibility, there was just way too much to do. And there was no, like, you couldn't just go home for the evening and clear your head. There, you had to take a helicopter to get back to shore. So I just created these sort of ways of prioritizing and del... and rationing out my time. That took the buffet element out of it. So you mentioned executive function, like for me this start looking at that to do list and kind of just skimming and saying, Oh, this is the shiny, sparkly thing, that's the thing I'm going to pick to work on. That is not the most efficient way to get things done. And you end up well, at least for me, I end up doing all the things that I enjoy, and none of the things that are kind of more difficult or longer. So I put, you know, typical engineering way I put a spreadsheet together and I had like a little algorithm and I would rank things based on how important they were and how much effort they would take. And that way, it was more of like a set course meal. So when I showed up in the morning, these were the top five things that I needed to do. And I there was no thought into like, oh, what looks prettiest, to me, what looks most exciting it was this is test number one, because that has the most points. And then at the end of the day, I you know, it gamified it so that I would be rewarded with those points. So if I did an activity that took me like three hours, which is kind of nauseating, even to think about sitting and doing something for three hours straight, that I'm not into, then I'd at least get some little like meaningless reward out of it. And that was really helpful. And so I found myself in February, kind of dusting off those spreadsheets and putting them back to use just to take some of the noise out of it for me.

Miranda Moore 27:36

Yeah, one thing that I've I've always really liked lists, and I find that if I try to gamify something, it becomes a perfectionism thing, like I then have to like achieve. Yeah, I've tried that before. I have tried that before. But then it becomes a perfectionism thing, and then I have to get perfect. And if I don't, I'm like, Well, I'm just failing altogether like my perfectionism I can't gamify stuff. And then also, if there's like a big barrier to like, okay, like, if I'm going to organize my thoughts, but then that whole process sort of takes it out of me. And all of like the energy and focus I had to ration then went into just preparing to do the work rather than doing the work, like and so if it's a kind of a big load up front, like that's a non starter for me, personally. So just what I usually do is I try to preempt my focus by doing stuff like so the end of the week, like I actually started this when I was a paralegal at at the Justice Department in Washington, it would be every Friday before I went home, I would put together a list of everything I knew I had to do the next week, and then at the end of every day, I would reassess and be like okay, well what got done, what didn't get done, what got thrown on my plate that wasn't there before that I now have to incorporate and then just at the end of the day, I would reassess for the next day and so I found that when I could go in and get started um already knowing what I had to do. That was a lot easier that that's what helped me more than anything because like I tried to and I researched like all these really like you know fancy ways of like how you be you know, understand and prioritize and encourage like motivate yourself in all of this and I just found that I got so hyper focused on that process that it took all the wind out of my sails for focusing on the actual work so and also if it's like something where there's a big barrier like I don't know I try this because I a lot of another thing too with my ADHD is my kind of just every day life adulting stuff suffers sometimes like when I get so into work, like I find it challenging to like, you know, eat well, or make sure I'm making time to like, for activity and that kind of thing. And those kind of daily things that do impact your productivity, but maybe not in like an immediate, sort of immediate reward kind of way. And so, but I found that if I like, buy into systems or whatever, like I tried, you know, like meal planning, and like all of that, if I do anything super rigid, and I, because there's always something that's going to get in the way, it doesn't matter if you have ADHD or not, life is always gonna get in the way, and you're never going to be able to keep it up perfectly. But I find the second that I falter a little bit, I'm like, throw the whole thing away, I can't do it anymore. And so just when I sort of just keeping it really simple in terms of like developing the list before I have to do the list, helps me and then also just not putting so much into the beforehand also helps me too, just because otherwise I feel like I'm setting myself up to fail a little bit. I don't know.

Erica D'Eramo 31:04

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I really want didn't want to just do this episode on my own, because there is no single way that ADHD manifests. And while we have some similar stories, or experiences or tools or revelations, in some ways, it's going to be really different. I mean, I'm not gonna say I didn't spend like many hours fine tuning that algorithm. But I really do enjoy that. And so that was like my little treat that I got to give myself. Um, but yeah, I I, what you were describing about the the to do list, I found that bullet journals were really helpful for me, and like, not the fancy stuff. But just like literally no book that just helps me. And I'm not always really good about. I mean, I don't know when the last time is that I numbered my pages. Actually. I haven't updated my index recently. But it's there for me to do it if I want to. And so yeah, what are I mean, what are some of the tools that you have found?

Miranda Moore 32:10

Um, when I found bullet journaling, it was like a revelation was very helpful. And then I wasn't, I believe, I don't want to like to say something like false, I haven't confirmed it. But like, I heard that the person who developed it also has ADHD, and that's why he developed it. And so I was like, well, this makes sense, because it works for an ADHD brain. But then, like, you know, I started getting into it. And I started, like, you know, I made the mistake of looking at Pinterest to look at, like, oh what are some fun ways you can like bullet journal and make it effective. And it was like immediate imposter syndrome, like immediate, like, I am not that creative. I'm not that talented, I can never make something like that work for me, whatever. And then I'm just like, well, what am I like, you know, just ignore that. And I had to remind myself to put on the blinders. And like, just think about, you know, you're literally just doing this to organize your stuff to do. And so, when I am able to kind of compartmentalize that, then I found the bullet journal works really, really well for me.

Erica D'Eramo 33:10

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 33:10

One thing that like when I was in grad school, because in between being a paralegal and becoming a journalist, I went back to J school. And just like, grad school is just so like, it is sensory overload. So it's like really difficult for your ADHD. But at the same time, everything is so contained, and compartmentalized that, like, it works well with my ADHD. So I both hated and loved grad school at the same time. But the only thing I found that worked, Target sold these like huge, like, calendars, these desk planners. And there was like a specific format that they had. And I loved that and I haven't found it since but like that planner just fit, it happened to overlap with like, when I was in grad school was perfect. It was like the days of the week on one side. It was just a big open square, and I could put whatever I wanted to in there. And then just like a blank notebook sheet on the other where it could put like kind of all of the lists and expand on like the things I would write in the day square and like whatever. And that was the like, I love that format. I haven't been able to find it since.

Erica D'Eramo 34:13

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 34:14

So I've replicated that just in bullet journals.

Erica D'Eramo 34:17

Yeah. I, I don't you I mean, I have seen kind of the bullet journals that are used sort of as, I don't know, like vision boards, sort of, and sketching and all that and I, similarly to you, I just kind of, it's a great way for me to just get down whatever I need to get down out of my brain without worrying too much about like, is it going in the right spot. It's fine, flip a page, put a title and start writing and it's okay. And it can pass that and it's flexible.

Miranda Moore 34:53

I keep asking myself I'm like who're you trying to impress with this bullet journal like you just need to get stuff done. You don't need to to impress anyone else, no one's looking at it, no one's judging it in an art competition like it's again, the perfectionism thing and the all or nothing thing that that kind of gets the best of me with my ADHD is is you know, I just in my brain have the subconscious, like I have to do it all or absolutely nothing. And that's kind of how I started with the bullet journal. But then eventually, when I just kind of took it back to like the bare minimum it was it was able to work for me.

Erica D'Eramo 35:25

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot in what you just said around perfectionism. And it's interesting, I don't know, if you look at ADHD, and gender, to what extent that perfectionism is sort of shows up a lot with women, maybe more so than men. But I just know that a lot of the women that I know that also deal with ADHD also are perfectionists, and it ties into procrastination, it ties into negative self talk. And so compassion seems to be one thing I'm really trying to focus on, like self compassion, being kind to myself, like that growth mindset of what's, what's the point here, like, there's, there's value in failing, there's value in growth. So yeah, I'm trying to focus on self compassion. And that's like, my, that's the thing I try to focus on, when I get hyper fixated on either perfectionism or, or the spiral of, you know, I've made a mistake, or I've messed something up and just moving on. Yeah, not not expending too much energy on it.

Miranda Moore 36:40

I went. So I was only diagnosed with ADHD within the last year. But I have spent like a lot of years trying to get various forms of psychiatric treatment for, you know, anxiety and depression or whatever. And so I did a lot of I did several years of just cognitive behavioral therapy with a therapist, and at the time, it was for anxiety, and then they kind of transitioned into depression. But I've found that since I've had like, the ADHD diagnosis, and I'm able to identify the habits that I was very critical of myself for, now knowing that they're part of ADHD, I'm actually able to I'm much better now that I'm a few years out of that therapy. I'm much better now about applying those lessons whenever I find myself struggling with something that I could attribute to the ADHD, like, whether it's procrastination, or I'm running late, or I just that's executive functioning, I just forget, or it's like poor working memory or whatever, I have found that I'm much more forgiving, and but it literally took knowing the diagnosis and knowing the reason for me to be able to put those into practice, because I don't know if I subconsciously knew that the diagnosis wasn't complete, or what but it was. Yeah. And so all those years of therapy are finally paying off after, you know, but but it literally took that label for me to understand not that I not that I use ADHD as an excuse, but it is an explanation.

Erica D'Eramo 38:12

Right. I, I totally agree with that. Like I really, that really resonates with me, because let's see, I was probably mid 30s, I guess mid to, yeah mid 30s. And for me, it just it took the it took like the good bad element out of some of my behaviors, and just made it much more like a not like a machine. But for my engineer brain, actually, that kind of is how I was able to look at it, right. And I love to cook. So cooking in the kitchen. I just started to think of my brain like, hey, I've got this one knife that is really good for this one job. And I've got another knife that is really good for another type of job. And that's okay they're, I don't judge the knives like this knife is better than this knife. Like they do different things well, and they can do those other things. They just don't do them as well. And it just became how do I work around this and set things up so that I can be more effective. Having a key that or having a hook that I put my keys on the same key, the same hook every single day, every single time has become something you would think it's so little right but that those little things that you realize when you have ADHD that they can make your life so much better so that every time you're trying to get out the door, you're not frantically searching for your keys, having the same place for my passport every single time. And if it's not there, I start to freak out and panic because I just know how important that is. And other people are like you'll find it you'll find it and for me that structure has become really important and I don't know why it took three and a half decades to figure out that hook for my keys was as valuable in my life as it was.

Miranda Moore 40:04

My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, you know, she, it's just used to be like, because I was super messy as a kid. And so she would just say, like, you know, a place for everything and everything in its place and like I can hear her voice in my head every time I'm like, the house is a disaster. I just like I can't find anything like I just don't have the kind of cognitive real estate to dedicate to, to anything's location. That, yeah, I hear her voice in my head when, when I have those moments. But yeah, it's just simple things like that. That like, it sometimes takes, at least me, it also takes me a while to sometimes come to that conclusion. But like, the real estate it frees. So you're just not constantly like, it's just, it helps my creative process a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 40:51

Yeah, I had always characterize myself as a messy person. And I, that has really changed over the years in that mess will accumulate around me. But I've recognized that for me mess is a big hindrance for me getting stuff done, it just creates like a static in my brain, that that's not good. So I'm trying to think when I finally 20, it was around 2012, I think I hired a professional organizer to come help me unpack boxes. And I just thought like, this is looming, I'm by myself, I'm on my own, I need help. So I hired an organizer. And I'm going to give a shout out to The Clutter Fairy in Houston, because she understands a lot about neurodivergent folks, particularly ADHD, and how to how to work together. And it was some of the best investment I've ever made in my life was having an organizer come and help me create a place for everything. And every time I would get overwhelmed, or like, you know, going through boxes of high school memorabilia or whatever, and I'd get like hyper focus, there was somebody there to gently and compassionately kind of get me back on track and set intervals and do all those things like set manageable goals. And it really paid dividends just like continuously. And so if there's anyone who is thinking about it, definitely recommend looking into it. If you've got the funds to spend an organ... like a professional organizer, interview them make sure that it's a good match. But for me, um having somebody who understood how ADHD worked, and could help me build a build my environment to work with my brain it was just invaluable.

Miranda Moore 42:44

Yeah, I don't like I've always really enjoyed organizing, I've always been good at it. I just don't ever follow through. And so, but whenever it's just me, like, if I had like an office where I can close the door, it's just like, you know, I lived by myself or whatever, it wasn't a big deal, like, you know, but it was when, yeah, my fiance and I moved in together, and he, you know, all of a sudden, I had this other variable, and he had his own ways of doing things that, you know, we had a lot of talks about how, like, No, I just need to create these organizational systems. And then, you know, I'll be okay and like how crucial that was just to my well being. And now it's, it's funny, because, like, we just moved a few months ago into this place, and he, you know, I put in a lot of time just kind of organize everything, like, you know, to exactly where it should go. And then I'm terrible at following up, but he's really good about following up. But he was also like, this time around he was also, this is like the third place I think we've been in since we moved in together. And he's now figured out that like, he'll just kind of pay attention to where I put things and then if I forget, you know, or whatever he forgets and he'll just, he'll later go back and like kind of help maintain that and I don't have to ask him to do it. I'm just like, it's such like a like a lift off of like my shoulders or whatever. And yeah, but having a partner who sort of intuitively understands that has been like a godsend. We had to have like a couple of like very direct like, you know, when we were moving like okay, no, I need systems like for things to go in certain places. And that is romantic because before he was just like a bachelor I think you know, he had like a pretty minimal sort of setup. He is definitely like a minimalist, I'm not in any way I'm definitely kind of a maximalist.

Erica D'Eramo 44:32

Laughing because this sounds very similar to my husband and I.

Miranda Moore 44:36

And so but he's, he's been very adaptable at you know, kind of adapting to my, my, my need for organization and all of the stuff that has to be organized. He's been very adaptable and understanding and patient about falling into that, but yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 44:56

Yeah, it's interesting now that I'm thinking now that we're in the process of unpacking boxes in a new house that has like far less storage space to work with, I'm realizing too that my perfectionism is certainly coming into play that I need to have the perfect setup, especially when it comes to things like pantries and kitchen where I spent a lot of time. That is my pastime that I have is cooking. And so the idea of just like putting things on shelves, is I can't, I can't actually handle that it has to have a system to it. Because I know that I will be dependent on that system working going forward, like, I know that it's gotta make sense where the flour goes, and it can't be on the other side from what like the baking soda is. So that part, getting over that hump of like, it has to be the perfect system. That's where I'm at right now in my unpacking phase.

Miranda Moore 45:51

Part of me having my own office is not just for the writing, which is obviously really important. But it's also like, my hobbies are just very stuff oriented, like I sew I sew a lot of my own clothes. And so that just requires a lot of equipment and fabric and, you know, just materials and, and so it was I was sort of sharing space with my fiance's office, in the last place we lived in so it was like, you know, if I wanted to sit down and sew or whatever it absolutely could not be at the same time he was working. And you know, he teaches courses in addition to like, his day job, and so in those are online, and so there's definitely times when we, you know, needed the space at the same time, and it was just kind of frustrating to deal with at the time. But yeah, I'm also a big reader. And so I have a lot of books, and those just need a place to go. And they need to be organized in exactly the way that I want them to be organized and like fiance doesn't get it, he accepts it. You know, but but...

Erica D'Eramo 46:47

Yeah

Miranda Moore 46:48

I needed like the, I needed to take a lot of time and just develop this whole systems. But it's, it's, it's amazing what it's done for my just to clear my head to be able to make the space for the creative work that goes into into writing and reporting.

Erica D'Eramo 47:05

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, right? Because there's this idea that's easy to buy into that a lot of us are sloppy, or messy or lazy or disorganized. And yet, and yet, in a, in a way, it's kind of like an all or nothing, maybe that's, that's coming into play with some of that. Because if you look at certain elements of my life, they are just like hyper organized. And very, I, the lazy label was always interesting to me, because I've always felt lazy. And then at the same time, you know, I'm somebody who will work through the night on something, if it's important, needs to get done, will push through and do whatever it takes. So reconciling that kind of the, the light side, and the dark side has been, I don't know, complicated, probably a lifelong journey.

Miranda Moore 48:02

Yeah, I haven't figured out the answer either. Like, but but I get exactly what you're saying. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 48:07

Yeah. So you know, in terms of the pandemic, how is that you think affected any of this for you, you sort of talked about some of it with moving house, but a lot of that sounds like it wasn't directly related to the pandemic necessarily.

Miranda Moore 48:24

It was, well, it was just strange, because in my case, it was like, everything happened at the same time, but it wasn't necessarily caused by it. Like I know, like, just about every well a lot of people who were able to work from home then started working from home at the start of the pandemic, but it's like, I went from having a job to just having no job. And so it was weird, because I've always been very, like I've always needed that sort of, or not that I've always needed, I've always relied on the external pressure of, you know, work schedule, or bosses or whatever, to kind of organize my thoughts when I was unable to organize them myself. And without that, and being sort of left to my own devices, it was very much a struggle. I didn't know, like, if, if I wanted to remain in kind of the journalism news media industry, or if I wanted to try to transition to something else, because, you know, I just I put a lot of thought into that. And then I also was like, well, okay, I just love writing and I love journalism, and I love story craft and reporting and always learning something new. And so it's the one profession I've had that I've actually stuck with, because you know, I've done a few different things. It was always kind of looking for something that I didn't have and journalism is finally the one thing that it can change but also it is a process that I enjoy and can stick with long term. And, but the topic is always different. So it feeds that part of my brain that always needs something new. But I just the staff job just wasn't going to be healthy anymore in this environment that's really hostile to the journalist, the individual journalist, you know, the, I try to demarcate, there's like the industry and there's the practice. And so, the practice, the profession of journalism, I love with every ounce of my being, the industry is awful for people generally, for neurotypical people, it is especially awful for neurodivergent people and people with ADHD like me. And so my compromises was just like, well, how can I still do the profession without having to be a part of the industry, and you're never going to be fully, you know, away from the industry, but I just took the time to decide that, you know, freelancing was just the compromise, I was gonna have to make, just for my own mental health, and my emotional health, to be able to create an employment option that worked with my brain, and I, you know, I'm not saying I'm glad I was laid off, like, I'm still really bitter about it, but I, I, you know, at least I'm thankful for the opportunity to be able to reassess that, and I'm not sure I would have been, I'm not sure I would have gotten off the train on my own. And so the fact that I was forced off, yeah, but also like, so, you know, as a writer, and like a creative, like, I want to some, like, a lot of times when I want to work, and this is especially the just back to environment. This is especially the case, when we had our smaller place, and I didn't have my own dedicated space to work from, like, the before times, I would just like go to a coffee shop, like, you know, coffee shops are where a lot of writers meet each other, and like, other creatives meet each other. And, you know, and even in the little town we were living in before, there's a pretty big creative community, and you know, I'd be able to meet people like that, but all of that shut down. It just wasn't, you know, it wasn't safe anymore. And so for a lot of creatives and freelance creatives who rely on those informal spaces, you know, to collaborate and to meet each other and to get inspiration. You know, that's been taken away. And so we've had to find a lot of those online, which, you know, it isn't the same, but at least it's something and so yeah, so a lot of those spaces have moved online, and I've had to, to seek those out, which is also, you know, made it sort of easier to connect in a way because you can also, it's not just local writers, you can connect with people from all around the world. And, and so, yeah, just the environment and the network, and the way that they're intertwined has has changed a lot for writers. And other creatives.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

Yeah. That informal space is also important for anyone doing kind of consulting or for, you know, just entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, that shared workspace environment can be really valuable. And not having access to that has been challenging. For me, for sure, and I haven't really been able to replicate that online yet. There's certainly communities there's like, you know, message boards, and chats, and all sorts of stuff that you can get involved in. But for me, as an introvert, even I really used to enjoy just going to a coffee shop and sitting amongst people, not even necessarily talking, but it just gave me a chance to kind of be in my head, but not be super alone. And, and being out of the house in it in a coffee shop also made me focus. Because like, this is work time. And when I'm done, and I pay my bill, or I get my last cup of coffee, and I leave, then work is done. And it kind of demarcated that for me. And so that's been more challenging. When it's in your bedroom, or it's, you know, in your kitchen...

Miranda Moore 54:17

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 54:18

...that goes away. It bleeds together.

Miranda Moore 54:20

For me with like, again, it gets into the all or nothingness to like, you know, I need to be able to compartmentalize, I need to know when it's this or that, because my brain has a really hard time shutting that off. And yeah, when everyone went inside, and never, you know, didn't come out again for a very long time like that became challenging, just that need to compartmentalize and being unable to do so because of physical constraints.

Erica D'Eramo 54:48

Yeah. So what type of kind of structures or environments or support have you found most helpful? Well, we kind of discussed this a little bit so far, but...

Miranda Moore 55:01

Um, I will say though that like before, any kind of like, you know, sort of solution or whatever therapy or anything like that could be effective for me, I had to regulate my brain chemistry, like through medical interventions, I had to find a psychiatrist, I had to get on ADHD medication. For me, that was the thing that like, made the difference between struggling to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and like taking active steps towards like building a freelance career. Like, so for me, it was like, I had to get medical help, I had to find a psychiatrist. And I struggled a little bit at the beginning, because like, I landed on a psychiatrist, he said, he specializes in ADHD, and I thought that his diagnosis was very thorough. But his treatment was very inflexible, like, you know, and so like, the medications didn't work for me, he didn't seem very willing to, like adjust them. And so I just stopped calling his office and went through a few other, you know, kind of explored options and whatever and eventually stumbled upon, I don't know if it was like, the the algorithm found me like the the robots found me or whatever. But I found in my Instagram feed an advertisement for like a nationwide sort of telehealth provider for ADHD. I was like, eh, what do I got to lose, I can at least try them. And if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out and whatever. But I actually re... Actually, I saw that one of the nurse practitioners from the practice I was at before that I didn't like was affiliated with them. And so I actually made sure to reach out to them before I made the appointment. I was like, you know, I know that like this person works with you guys. I just don't want to work with that person I've already had an experience with them, it wasn't my favorite, I'd really rather have someone else. And they actually put me partnered me with, I think she's like a pretty senior kind of within the organization, nurse practitioner who has been brilliant, I adore her. And like, she really listens, and she takes into account sort of all of my individual quirks and, and needs and things. And so and we've, it's taken a few months, but I think we finally got on a regimen that has been working for me. And so but she was really flexible. And that was like the big thing is I wanted a provider who would listen in and adjust and change course if we needed to. And she's been that. So once I got my brain chemistry sort of evened out, then everything else, like I was able to, you know, get back into sort of being more proactive rather than responsive. Like I feel like in the past where I had a structure to rely on, I was very responsive to demands as they were placed on me. Whereas as a freelancer, I have to be very proactive. And so it sort of quieted my brain enough to where I'm able to do that.

Erica D'Eramo 57:54

Yeah. I mean, finding a provider that you trust, and is willing to work with you and, and be flexible seems really key.

Miranda Moore 58:04

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 58:05

Like really, really important. And, again, this is coming from privilege in some ways, not everyone has choices, or can shop around. But that's been my experience as well. That having someone who listens to me takes my, my concerns my observations seriously. There is just such a power differential between doctor and patient. There's an informa... information differential. And then also, we know that when women present symptoms, they're not taken seriously, they're not seen as being as objective. They're naturally seen as, like being more emotional, and all these all these complicating factors. So finding someone who takes you seriously, listens when you tell them that you seen a symptom, and that something's not working for you, seems really, really critical. I'm glad you found somebody that works well with.

Miranda Moore 59:02

Yeah, but again, it wasn't like necessarily the first try. And so it's very, like, when you find someone who like, okay, they believe you but they have like a very specific interpretation of what your challenges are and how you should treat them. And they seem inflexible on that. Like it's just it was, it was frustrating because you go back in your head and you're like, you doubt yourself, you know, you doubt yourself you doubt, you know, am I the person who's wrong when like, not necessarily it's just this person isn't a good fit. And, you know, it's I implicit there's also like a little bit of frustration there like you work really hard you research doctor if you find someone you know, maybe they work with your insurance or whatever. And then you just don't get along you, it doesn't work out and you're kind of back to square one and that's sort of intimidating and you know, disheartening and dismotivating and a lot of or demotivating in a lot of ways, and it's, you know, even there's, you know, you just have to keep going. It's unfortunate that, that it's so hard to find mental health care that like, you can be comfortable with, like, you know, it's it's frustrating. It's, there's so many challenges to doing that. But, um, but it's worth it in the end.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:23

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. So I, I've not actually found the ADHD medication to be helpful for me. I actually just like, didn't notice a difference. So I ended up not pursuing that route, which is another area where it can just be super different for each individual. For some people, I find. I've hear... some conversations I've had with people, they've, they've kind of recounted trying different medications and having side effects that were too much for them, or they, you know, didn't like the way they felt. And so they've learned to, to live without the medication. And for some people, it's been really effective and really useful. So it kind of just seems like it differs from person to person, there's no like, right or wrong, better way to handle it. So. So right around the time that I figured out that I probably had ADHD. Around that same time, while I was working offshore, I started implementing a meditation practice. And I don't think they're related. I don't think I, well, I don't think I think I actually probably started meditating before, I had my aha moment and went for a diagnosis, but it came about because of this, they both came about because of the same reason that I was in this like, really rigid environment where I didn't have any control over even my natural functions like sleeping, or when you eat or anything like that, or even what you eat. And so I started a mindfulness practice at the time, and I had started, I tried meditating for years, and really struggled a lot. And never thought it was something that was right for me. And in that moment, I didn't really have a choice, like I needed something. And so even a three minute meditation could just kind of like, bring me relief, bring my, you know, bring my blood pressure down in these in these tough times. And it would help me fall asleep, when I would say, need to take a 20 minute nap, that's all the time, I would have to take a 20 minute nap. And so I started listening to sleep meditations that would kind of knock me out and get my brain to stop the like cycling, the running the rambling. And that has ended up being such a valuable practice for me in life, mostly because it's taught me to listen and watch my own thoughts in a way that can indicate when I'm starting to go off track. So it's even just noticing my own distraction, like it's given me a tool to work on, or a muscle that I'm working on to even notice when I'm distracted, which is something I didn't have before or even notice when I'm hyper focused. So I don't know what studies have been done on ADHD and meditation. But for me, it's almost like the medication that I have available, that does seem to have more of an impact so much that when I hear the I listen to guided meditations, I'm not such a great meditator that I can just like sit in silence for 20 minutes. That sounds like torture to me. And I did do it through like my yoga teacher training, you know, we would have like 30 minute silent meditations every day. And so I know I'm, I'm able to it just doesn't sound enjoyable. But as soon as I kind of hear the sound of the guided meditation, it's like a physical reaction occurs in my body. And that's been that's been interesting. That's not to say if medication works for you, you should go get it and don't rely on just meditation. But that's one thing that I have found to be really effective for me.

Miranda Moore 1:04:09

Yeah. I and one thing that's interesting is like, you know, I don't fully like, I don't believe in like, the woowoo stuff, like, I believe that food is food and medicine is medicine, and you know, whatever. I don't necessarily believe that. Like, you know, all these people who suggest like, you know, do this in your diet, and you'll just feel so much... like, whatever. But I did know, at least being on medication made me clear my head enough to where I could do things like meal plan and whatever, and just kind of those quality of life, adult things that I've always struggled with. And so just like I've even noticed to just like, eating better, and I'm not talking about like being perfect, I'm not talking you know, whatever. I don't buy into diet culture. I'm not talking about like, I don't track what I eat, but it's literally just like planning meals ahead of time. So I'm not grabbing fast food, like literally something that simple like being on medication has cleared my head enough to where I can do that. And even that has helped also just like being able to, like, I don't know, and just like, even, like, take care of like things in like a balanced way has also made me feel better physically, like mentally it's helped clear my head as well.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:23

It's like those foundational enablers that kind of allow the other things to work more smoothly. Yeah, I feel like there are some fixes, there are some things that I change about my environment or about, you know, like tools that I put in place that fix a small thing, or make something in my life easier. But then there are those other things that just impact so many different aspects of my life. And are kind of multipliers of my well being.

Miranda Moore 1:05:53

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:55

I feel like nowadays, there's so much about ADHD on Twitter, on YouTube, TikTok all the kind of platforms. And probably a lot of advice, some advice is good, some is totally ungrounded. And I guess I should reiterate that us talking about our experiences today is just that, like it's this is not giving anybody, the intention is not to be giving any advice or, or any recommendations. Just to kind of humanize some of this some of this struggle and talk about some of the things that have worked and not worked for us. But I do feel like there's a lot out there. Is there anything that you found that doesn't work for you that you thought like, this was a no go.

Miranda Moore 1:06:43

Um, I know, like, I'm in a couple like ADHD support groups, on like Facebook and stuff like that. Where just like, people get together and talk about, like, what's worked for you who does this whatever. And a lot of the people who suggest like gamifying things, I know, it worked really well for you, like, I just, I can't like I, my perfectionism just gets the best of me, and it just ends up becoming more destructive than I think anything. It's more destructive than beneficial for me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07:15

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:07:16

Anything that is too, like frilly or detailed up front, that sort of like, requires my attention that I would have otherwise focused on, like my actual work. Um, you know, if it like, takes away from that, like, you know, bullet journaling, super complicated, like formats, or like, you know, designs or, you know, anything like that, like, I just, I can't, because it, it is both too intimidating for me to want to be a part of, and then like, if I do have the motivation to try, it just takes all of the focus that I would, because focus is finite, I feel like like, I can't just focus on like, you know, forever on anything. And so, if it takes all my focus to just plan the tasks, rather than actually implement the ta.. and like do it, then it's just a non starter for me. But yeah, I also just need things that like, allow for flexibility. That's why you know, my system really isn't more complicated than just like lists, I just do a lot of to do lists, and I do a lot of po... Like, and I have, I mean, I'm a writer, so I have like, I'm very picky about notebooks, but I have, them like all over my house. And so if I am like in the kitchen, and I remember something like I have a notebook there, I can just like or a pad of paper, something I can just grab and like, you know, write. And then if I need to stick Post-its all over, I can do that. And so it's just pretty rudimentary, like I, you know, I wish I had like a more, I was able to describe a more sophisticated system, but it's literally just, you know, the thing that's worked for me has been the thing that's been I've been able to maintain for years, which I have a lot of trouble with. Maintaining any kind of practice for years, is just at the end of the day, make a list of what I want to do the next day. And every week, I kind of make a list of the things I need to do the next week, and just that's literally nothing more complicated than that has ever worked for me. Like I have to keep it super simple.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:13

Yeah, I understand that. I'm trying to think if there's anything that I've tried that really hasn't worked, I mean, I know that there is. There's plenty of stuff that hasn't worked for me. Um...

Miranda Moore 1:09:24

It's also very ADHD thing to like, if this doesn't work, you just like push it out of your working memory and you just never remember it again.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:30

Discarded. Yeah, not there anymore. I think that one thing I'm working towards which I is of questionable value, but was necessary at the time as an intervention was time blocking. I was having this feeling at the end of each day that kind of my day had disappeared from me. I didn't know where my time went. I was working across like multiple things at once and just flitting from one thing to another and so I've started trying to time block where I put it in my ca... I've sort of said like, how many hours, proportionally, do I want to spend doing X, Y, or Z? In a week. And at least carving it out, so I can see what it look... like a week, like that looks like and then at least I know, if I'm not working on that thing, during this time, I'm detracting from it, you know, or I need to kind of place it somewhere else. I found that I'm not sticking to those time blocks very well. But it has given me a lot more visibility to where my time is going. And I actually started doing that. Once I found that I wasn't sticking to the time blocking, I started tracking my time using this app called Toggl.

Miranda Moore 1:10:43

I've heard of it.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:45

Yeah. And that has been absolutely fascinating. I, some days, I'm better than others about hitting the the like timer to track where my time is going. But what it's given me is a lot more. It's given me relief. When I look at what I did do during a day, just like that visibility of, okay, I didn't just squander this time. Like, even if I spent it surfing through Twitter or something or kind of going on a deep dive. At least I know where it went. And that has made me feel more in charge of my time. That more intentional I guess, even though it's backwards looking. And even the act of just hitting the Toggl timer or having it pop up and say like, do you want to record your time? Even that makes me think like, oh, what am I going to write in this box right now that I'm doing? Like, I'm just surfing the internet, or I'm like researching the history of Le Creuset, kind of like cookware, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing in that moment that has caught my attention, then I can write it down and just feel more in control. So that's been really helpful for me. But questionable success on the time blocking.

Miranda Moore 1:12:05

I tried Pomodoro method one time... reminded...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:09

Oh, yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:10

...which I don't know, if maybe it wasn't the, you know, the actual proper way to do it. I just I couldn't do it like, I found that like, when it was time for a break, I was like, No, I'm not ready for a break, I'm in the middle of this, I can't whatever. And so I would ignore it. And I just...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:24

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:24

...for me, it wasn't like, again, I don't know if it's like my all or nothing sort of thinking of my need to compartmentalize like, you know, I'm working or I'm not working, or I'm doing the you know, and I just like I didn't, you know, I just didn't, I don't know, I just cognitively couldn't get over the barrier of like, it's telling me I need to take a break, don't tell me what to do. Like, I don't want to take a break right now I'm in the middle. So I would just like ignore it. So it was just like, off the bat, like, first time I tried it, I was like, nope, and I just maybe, yeah, you may need to try it again, or something, but I'm just like, especially being medicated, like you, my mind doesn't wander as much anymore as it used to. And so that's like a big help. And I feel like the Pomodoro method works really well for people who have issues with their mind wandering. And for me, I don't know if it was just like, being a creative, where it's like, my issue is always sitting down to like, do it. It wasn't necessarily knowing what I had to do, or anything like that, it was just sitting down to do it. And so that's been ameliorated a lot by getting treatment. And so now that I can, like, I don't know, sometimes when I need to write, I just need to write for like, 10 hours straight, and just get it out. And then I'll like, not look at it for a week, and then I'll go back and, you know, look at it, or, like, I'll work on something else in the meantime, and then I'll go back to it or whatever, but I just need to, like, I don't like the division of time, you can and like I like the flexibility of if I want to just keep working through I'm gonna keep working through if I need a break, you know, I'll my body will tell me I'll need a break. And then I'll take it, but I just so those artificial kind of constraints where it's like, you work for this amount of time, and then you take a break for this amount of time, and then you sit back down again, like that just feels not productive for me. And the way that I work. Yeah, for somebody else it works great. Like, I have a friend who works great for like, she can't work without the Pomodoro method, you know, and so.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:25

I found it really helpful in grad school, when I would have to do when I would have to especially for reading, like when I had many chapters to read and to get through and I would put them into my like, text reader that would read it to me and I do best when I'm, this is something I figured out I guess in grad school, when I can read the words on a page and listen to them at the same time. That's really helpful even if it's just like computer voice reading it to me. So page readers have been helpful and upping the speed also helps me a lot because I can get through it more quickly. I don't have to have sustained attention for quite as long. But it forces me to like, listen more closely. So so doing that, but I would look and see like even at 2x speed or whatever, 350 words per minute, I'm still looking at like seven hours of reading today that I have to get through on a weekend. And so that Pomodoro method was helpful for me not because it was saying, like, take a break now, but because it was giving me permission for some breaks. Because otherwise I would hit maybe two hours, and I just be like, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And so it enabled me to kind of go for some long hauls, because it gave me permission to take a break. And I was like, okay, I know, I can get through 45 minutes, of really dry reading. I know I can, or whatever it is, like 20 minutes. So it gave me kind of more bite sized chunks. Otherwise, I would just put it off and have it looming, where I had to kind of pull an all nighter before before class, which is not good. So maybe in certain situations, it could, it could work for me, but but I agree once you're in flow, if you're doing something where you hit flow, like yeah, that's the last thing you want.

Miranda Moore 1:16:11

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:12

That precious flow state, like. Don't take it away from me.

Miranda Moore 1:16:16

Yeah

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:16

Yeah. Um, so I guess like, just to wrap do you have any last words of wisdom for anyone who I guess maybe thinks that they have ADHD or is struggling with this or even just people, even if they don't have ADHD, just attention spans are tough to come by these days. There's a lot out there distracting us.

Miranda Moore 1:16:40

Yeah, there is a lot. Um, and it's just and it's tough, because everything is so like, it's like our lives are in a pressure cooker right now. And I feel like we're kind of nearing the end, at least in the US of the we're not there yet. But we're really kind of inching closer to the end of the pandemic. So people are kind of getting extra antsy. So yeah, it's just tough. But I mean, my yeah, the only advice I can really give is just like, be gentle to yourself, like, be forgiving with yourself. Because like, we're all trying right now. And we're all human. And like, these demands that are put on us by like, whether it's work or you know school or whatever, like these are demands put on us by like, in like institutions that are not human, and they don't always account for humanity...

Erica D'Eramo 1:17:36

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:17:37

...in their requirements of us. And so, I mean, I don't know I just found a lot of freedom when I was able to decouple myself from these systems of, you know, capitalism and and whatever else that place some kind of moral value almost on productivity. Where it's like, if you just allow yourself the freedom to be human, I've found like, a lot has been lifted, emotionally, and my mental health was a lot better.

Erica D'Eramo 1:18:11

Yeah, I mean, for the end result too of being able to, like, produce these beautiful things, or these interesting things that at least, the contribution's not about just putting in the sweat, or the hours or some measure of number of words, or, you know, some, like arbitrary measure that we tie to our morality. It's really, to me the switch has been looking at what's most effective for what I want to get out of life, or what I want to put into life, and how can I be most effective in that, and that's when I realized, like, trying to tamp down the part of me that I associate with ADHD also tamps down the unique things that I bring, like that nonlinear way of thinking, my creativity. All the things that make me kind of are part of my identity and how I view myself that I can contribute to the world to move us towards a more just more equitable world. Like that's my goal. And so if I can be more effective by recognizing that, and being, like you said, being compassionate, why would I not do that? Right? That makes that makes no sense. Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming and chatting. And this is also probably a nonlinear conversation. Just, I hope, I hope this was helpful. And for anyone interested in more information about, you know, living and working with neurodiversity, there is so much out there right now, on the internet. There's so many different support groups, there's, there are so many books to read. So if you think you might be in this category definitely, you know, look into that and perhaps get a diagnosis it can be, it can be life changing. And if you're interested in what Two Piers is doing and Two Piers consulting and our efforts to make workplaces more representative, more equitable or diverse, then you can find information about us at twopiersconsulting.com, or on any of the social media platforms, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you liked this podcast, like our podcasts, then please leave us a review or rating and check back for our next episode. Thanks.

An Exploration of Yin Yoga

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we've invited a special guest to come talk to us about Yin yoga: some of the benefits, how we can incorporate it into our lives, and her perspective on the practice of Yin.

Erica D'Eramo 0:38

So joining us today is Rhia Robinson. Hi, Rhia. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

Rhia Robinson 0:44

Thanks for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:46

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rhia Robinson 0:50

Um, well, I've been teaching yoga for almost 20 years, which is, seems crazy to say, but I started practicing yoga, in high school, and it was not a consistent practice. But the, the poses and the meditations, and, you know, I started reading about yoga certainly intrigued me enough that I kept coming back to it in high school and college. And then, of course, after college really devoted myself to studying the tradition. I teach here in Houston, Texas. And I've, I've sat on all sides of the yoga world, of course, I've been a student, I am a student, always. I've owned a studio before. And right now I'm just really focusing on my teaching. And I offer weekly classes, online classes. And I also train teachers specifically in yoga.

Erica D'Eramo 1:56

Cool. So I, one of the reasons I wanted to do an episode on Yin yoga, and bring you on to share your expertise is because I found that Yin has been a really valuable support structure for me in my life that is kind of chaotic and busy or constantly trying to juggle lots of things. And Yin has been a practice that I've kept coming back to, over the years to find some mindfulness to kind of find my edge, and to practice being still. And it, it was really quite different from what I had previously understood yoga to be. And so that's one of the reasons I wanted to share that with some of our listeners in case that is something that they would be interested in as well, because a lot of our listeners are also very busy juggling lots of things coming out of a very turbulent year with lots of trauma. And I feel that this might be something that they they could find value in as well.

Rhia Robinson 2:59

Yeah, I think I think a lot of people know, in general, the benefits of yoga, you know, someone almost always has a friend who, when they're stressed out, they say you need you should try yoga, which is great. Because as my, one of my favorite teachers, Erich Schiffmann, always said, the world needs more yogis. But you'll get in, in group classes in the US is often much more focused on a kind of a workout. modality, it's it's a lot of emphasis on flexibility, and sometimes on strength, and sometimes on sweating. And that's, that is certainly one way to approach yoga and yoga Asana in particular. And then Yin is on the other side of that spectrum. So it approaches the physical postures via this kind of passive, softer, quieter route, and we emphasize stillness.

Erica D'Eramo 4:08

Yeah, I feel like in a world that has lots of distractions, sometimes I would use yoga, like a vinyasa class as a different type of distraction. And it was a beneficial distraction, it energized me. But it didn't necessarily force me to be with myself and be with my thoughts and kind of witness the journey necessarily. So that was one of the differences that I really enjoyed about Yin. So can you tell us a little bit about Yin itself, and maybe some of the history or the philosophy around it like what is Yin yoga?

Rhia Robinson 4:45

Yeah, of course. So Yin yoga, in some ways, is considered a relatively modern form of yoga. There's kind of two big teachers out there that really codified the teachings and then and promoted them in the US. One is Paul Grilley. And the other is Sarah Powers. But Yin yoga has more of its roots in Traditional Chinese Medicine. And I think the thing to know about Yin is in some ways, even though it's considered a modern type of yoga or style of yoga, if you if you look back at some of the more traditional texts like Patanjali, Yoga Sutras, he describes Asana as being a steady, stable seat. And the fact that we use mostly seated or supine postures in Yin. And that we emphasize these qualities of stillness and ease actually point to the fact that what we're doing is probably in some ways closer to what the yogis were practicing 1000s of years ago.

Erica D'Eramo 6:04

So what do you think some of the misconceptions might be around Yin? For somebody who hasn't practiced it before or known about it before?

Rhia Robinson 6:16

Yeah, well, I mean, I think if you talk about Yin yoga, that the major misconception about Yin is that you're somehow stretching your joints and your ligaments. So in Yin yoga, we hold the postures for, in general, three to five minutes. Sometimes it's two minutes, and sometimes it's 10 minutes. But for the most part, we're kind of using this container of three to five minutes. Like I said, most of them are seated postures, or supine postures. And within the practice, we really emphasize trying to find a passive hold. So you're not gripping and gritting your way through a five minute warrior one. In fact, you're trying to find a softness. And we really, as teachers recommend practicing and about 80% of your capacity, so you're not going to your full range of motion. And then, like I said, kind of holding there, it's a little softer. That doesn't mean it's gentle. I would say that's probably another misconception is people think, oh, when you're moving slow, it's, it's it's gentle. In fact, some of the postures in Yin, as you know, are very provocative they're, they stir things up. But one of our goals, if you will, within the practice, is to be able to kind of observe that, that stirring up of stuff, and just hold space for it to not have to react immediately. So we are putting some pressure on the bones and the ligaments and the joints, we say stress. And we say that very specifically, because we're not stretching those parts of the body. But we certainly are stressing those tissues. And yeah, I hope I answered that question.

Erica D'Eramo 8:24

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right that sometimes people think Yin is synonymous with like restorative yoga. And for me, they're just such completely different experiences. Like I'm going through a lot of emotions in a Yin class, and a lot of kind of reflections are coming up. And there's an energy there that is quite different than what I experience in a restorative class.

Rhia Robinson 8:52

So restorative yoga and Yin kind of share a little bit of crossover in that they both have long hold times. But in restorative yoga, if you're feeling any stress in the bones, or the joints or the body, it's it's a signal that you need to add more support. So there really shouldn't be any stress on the on the in the body in restorative. Whereas in Yin, we're looking to kind of come to some sort of physical edge. And so there will be sensation and sometimes that sensation can be really intense.

Erica D'Eramo 9:30

Yeah, intense is a good word not pain, right? Like we never want pain. But intensity is is a good descriptor. So I'm, I'm interested in what some of the benefits are like, I know what my benefits have been that I've I've taken away from yen and experienced from my Yin practice. I'm interested in your perspective on what some of the benefits can be.

Rhia Robinson 9:58

Well, I think there's several benefits really, of Yin yoga, but the one that I really like to promote is that a lot of us know, we've heard all about the benefits of meditation, right of trying to quiet the mind, I don't even use the word still the mind because that's nearly impossible, right? But, but certainly kind of giving some parameters around the mind. So getting a little bit more quiet. Um, getting still. Even finding some way to to rest within all of these different sensations that are happening. Those are some of the big benefits of of Yin. I would say that the more stable you feel, the more easily it will be to kind of go with the flow, on the mat, off of the mat. Of course, we live most of our lives off of the mat. So everything that we're learning, we want to be able to integrate into our life off the mat, which is, of course, where we spend 99% of our time.

Erica D'Eramo 11:18

Yeah, and that is, that is really why I felt like this was a topic that I wanted to explore a bit on a podcast episode, because for me, my Yin practice really does sort of show up throughout other aspects of my life, particularly when I am trying to be present when I'm trying to sort of explore the journey of experiences, and I will sometimes... We talk, you know, sometimes in Yin, we talk about finding your edge. And I feel like in life, that that's very valuable, understanding at what point you know, are, am I going beyond my limits? At what point am I just feeling discomfort in the moment, and I just need to sit with it and observe it and kind of learn from it. And differentiating between those two, that's I found that to be really valuable.

Rhia Robinson 12:18

Right? Well, and what develops resilience is playing with our edges. One of the things that I talked so much about when the pandemic began about a year ago is in my classes, I said, Oh, you know, what, we've been training for this our entire practice, this ability to stay stable, to remain calm, as we're navigating uncertainty. You know, these are all things that really in a good yoga practice eventually come up.

Erica D'Eramo 12:53

Yeah, I think the, the piece around mindfulness as well is a bit kind of more approachable. And this is something that we've discussed in the past, that for a lot of people sitting for three minutes of silence, just in a chair and breathing sounds like an easy thing to do. And then the first time they try to do it, they realize, Oh, this is very difficult. And sitting, being alone with my thoughts is is actually challenging. And so people will sometimes back away from a mindfulness practice, because it's not easy to establish, and that's why we call it a practice, right? So, Yin is, for me, it's like a different entryway into a mindfulness practice, that is a different experience and maybe has, I don't want to say less barriers, but perhaps more approachable barriers for me.

Rhia Robinson 13:53

I think that in 2021, we're certainly dealing with more distraction, more stress than ever. And so, yeah, asking somebody to just sit still for three minutes, and, you know, focus on their breath is nearly impossible, even for a very practiced meditator or yogi, particularly in these circumstances. So one of the reasons why I really like in is just like you said, it's a gateway or a different approach in to becoming more mindful to quieting the mind. Because we give the mind something to, to do to focus on. And this is, this is a great approach, right? Because it's not just telling the mind Hey, I want you to be quiet for three minutes. The nature of our minds is to is to roam, is to think is to wander, it's to enquire. So here in This particular tradition, we're going to use the mind. But we're going to give it something to focus on. In other words, hey, you've got three minutes, and I'm going to put you in a shape. And I want you to assess the sensation. And I want you to assess how you can support yourself better. And I want you to look at how your breath is moving, where it moves with ease where it's stuck. And I want you to notice the state of your mind. And then maybe, after we've kind of looked at all of these pieces of the experience, for the last minute, I want you to have the intention to be still. And that's maybe five or eight breaths for the average person. And that's, that's far more approachable than just being quiet for three minutes.

Erica D'Eramo 15:51

Yeah, I agree that having something to focus on a physical sensation to start with, is an interesting balance between the doing brain and the observing brain. And so it kind of gives us something to do, it gives us like a focus objective. But it also gives us that opportunity to kind of shift over into the observant observer brain, and we're observing our sensations, and then we're observing our thoughts and our emotions and responses. And that is kind of the gateway that I see into mindfulness. And that shifting from the doing brain to the observing brain,

Rhia Robinson 16:37

Right. Well, and we also get to get a sense of some of our patterns, right? So in my habit of, of or in my, in this context of observing, do I, am I judging myself? We start to look at yogi as yogis at "what do I always do?" Oh, I, I really am harsh on the side of my body that's tight, or, or things like that. And again, we can take that inquiry that information and start to see how that plays outside off of the mat. And the other thing is, as we start to tune into this observer, this part of us that is, you know, watching the body have sensations, it's watching the mind have a response to those sensations, we can start to delineate like, who is the part of me that is observing? Hmm, that's an interesting inquiry in and of itself.

Erica D'Eramo 17:40

Yeah. That's quite an existential inquiry. I yeah, I think that the one of the other kind of elements for Yin that is been that has been interesting to me is, even though it's a physical activity, it shifts us away from this, like, goal oriented achievement aspect of physical activity that so often proliferates, whether we're going for a run or we are doing a vinyasa class with like 2000 Chaturangas, whatever it is, handstands. And it shifts us away from that into the journey and the experience of it. And that can extrapolate into kind of other types of physical activity for me, where I learned to enjoy the process, rather than the metrics around it, or some sort of, like achievement around it. Just the experience.

Rhia Robinson 18:42

Yeah, I think, again, in our culture, there's kind of it's, it's very common, to always have a reason to do something. We don't rest enough, we're not used to, quote unquote, doing nothing. We, a lot of our identity is wrapped up in achievements and and what it is that we're doing on a day to day basis, minute by minute, so this idea that, you know, integration, transformation requires rest, it requires non doing is a pretty revelate or, you know, revelatory idea for most people.

Erica D'Eramo 19:33

Yeah, and that shift away from the achievement to celebrating quietness, resting experience, observation is, is also really valuable in our day to day lives as we're caught up in these kind of meetings and classes and all the zoom meetings and whatnot. Just trudging through trying to get these accomplishments. Are we experiencing the experience? Are we? Are we actually taking that sort of step back to understand, as the observer, how are we feeling? What's going on in our head? What's going on around us? And so that's another aspect for me that yen has strengthened.

Rhia Robinson 20:22

That's beautiful.

Erica D'Eramo 20:24

So we've talked about some of the benefits. And I've talked a lot about, like, how that extrapolates into my life, what are some of the risks with Yin or the contraindications perhaps that people should be aware of if they are thinking about, you know, going and and starting a Yin practice?

Rhia Robinson 20:42

Yeah, I mean, like any physical activity, there are certain risks. In particular, I would say that there's a style and a type of yoga that's best suited to different bodies and different personality types. So for one, I would say, if you're hyper mobile, like you're already very, very flexible, and you come to Yin with kind of that Western "goal mindset," it's not the best practice, because there's really the potential to further kind of destabilize the bones and the joints. Certainly people who are working with back injuries, or hip or knee replacements, or injuries may find that some of the poses are not appropriate. And for that, you know, in that, again, that's that's the case for really all yoga practices. So the best thing to do is really to find a qualified teacher. And if that's not possible, then you know, pick up a really good book that you can take a look at. And there are some general kind of practice guidelines that you can get a sense of. You know, I think the main thing with Yin is just not to overdo it to kind of keep in mind this 80% rule, that you're not going into your full capacity in any particular forward fold or backbend. But that there's there's room to allow the pose to develop over time, because we'll be there for three minutes for four minutes, five minutes. It's very different if you're maybe a hatha or vinyasa yoga practitioner, and you've only got three or four or five breaths in a pose, well, then I can see where you'd want to come up to your full capacity, because time is limited. In Yin, we have this kind of, it's a rather luxurious practice, really, and so, so you want to be careful in playing with that time that you're not going too far. I don't recommend it for for, you know, kind of a prenatal yoga practice, again, because we are strategically placing stress on the joints and the ligaments, particularly for women who are in their second and third trimester. There is certainly a risk of kind of overdoing that since they've got a hormone in their body that's preparing it for for childbirth. So those are some that's an overview of some of the risks. But finding a general kind of Yin yoga class, for most people is probably fine.

Erica D'Eramo 23:37

If you wanted to find a Yin class, where would you look?

Rhia Robinson 23:41

Oh, you know, now again, one of if we if we can say there's been benefits to to the pandemic, which I'm sure you know, there's there's a few out there if we look for the silver lining, but one of the the big benefits is that nearly every yoga studio has taken their classes in some way, shape, or form online. And they're really affordable, which is great. And they're super accessible. So if you have a yoga studio that you already like, that you're familiar with, or a teacher, you should check out and see if they have on demand classes. There's certainly some kind of national brands that are super reputable. They have a solid lineup of teachers like YogaInternational.com or Glo.com G L O. But even I believe Sarah Powers has some classes online at this point. And probably Paul Grilley does as well. So I always say, go to the top. Go to your teacher's teacher if you can. And, you know, but the one risk there if you just Google Yin yoga classes, I have no doubt you'll come up with someone's YouTube channel, which may or may not be great. It's hard to say.

Erica D'Eramo 25:08

Yeah, I think you bring up really good points about, you know, we were we are putting our bodies into states of vulnerability to a certain extent when we do some Yin, and it's, it is important to have a teacher that you trust and who is experienced? Or who, even if they're a relatively new teacher, you know, has done done the work. So, sometimes we have to sample teachers and see, you know, where our fit is?

Rhia Robinson 25:41

Absolutely. I mean, you need to find somebody who, who resonates with you, you like, what they're asking you to do you feel confident. And, of course, there's, there's tons of free yoga out there. And it's probably of varying quality. So I'll go back to kind of recommending, either, you know, again, if you have a studio that you like, they might have a Yin teacher, Yin class on the schedule, you just never, never saw it, or take a look at some of those more national kind of groupings of teachers. So Yoga International pulls teachers from all over the world, but they're of really high quality.

Erica D'Eramo 26:25

That's a great recommendation. Thank you. Is there a certain kind of time of day that you recommend doing, a Yin practice or certain time of the week? Or when would you recommend doing Yin?

Rhia Robinson 26:38

And that's a great question. You know, I think Yin yoga can be practiced at any time. But what will be important is for you to have an understanding of kind of where you want to be at the end of this practice. And that will kind of help guide the poses that you choose or the type of class that you choose. So for example, a lot of people think that Yin is relaxing. And as we've discussed, previously, it it doesn't always turn out that way. There are certain poses that are more provocative, they have a lot of sensation, and they they tend to stir up kind of expansive energies, right, they'll awaken you. So you can practice Yin to help you relax at the end of your day to help you prepare for sleep. And the poses that you would choose would be a lot more forward folds, twists, kind of supine hip openers, that kind of thing. And it's great for that. Probably less, you know, lower hold times, as well, I'd say. And, but you can also practice again in the morning to kind of wake you up. Like I said, it does have particularly back bends and laterals have a little bit more awakening expansive energy. So it just depends, you know, you can practice it at any time, but what you actually practice will differ depending on what you want to do afterwards.

Erica D'Eramo 28:24

Yeah, I still remember you kind of challenging in in your Yoga Teacher Training class that you hosted, challenging us to try doing Yin the beginning of the day in the morning, before we warmed up our muscles at all and just exploring what that experience was. And that that wasn't the time of day that I normally did Yin and it was a totally different experience for me and I really took a lot from it actually.

Rhia Robinson 28:52

Yeah, if you practice I personally love a morning Yin practice that has a lot of the the kind of the benefits to the bones to the joints to the fascia, the ligaments, and, and depending on the postures can help you move more smoothly into your day. Like you feel grounded. You feel awake, you feel centered. And it's it's great. So I'm glad you had a good experience with it.

Erica D'Eramo 29:25

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So for people who would like to learn more about your offerings, is there somewhere that they can follow you or find out more about your teachings or your classes that you host?

Rhia Robinson 29:40

Yeah, so of course, I have a website. It is www.RhiaRobinsonYoga.com. And my Instagram, I really focus on the yoga sutras and making those particular teachings accessible, practical. And so my Instagram is Essential Yoga Sutras @essential_yoga_sutras.

Erica D'Eramo 30:12

Awesome, thank you! I will include those in the the notes for the episode as well. And we just want to thank you for, you know, spending the time to explain this realm of yoga that, you know, some people might not be familiar with, and that could really benefit some individuals.

Rhia Robinson 30:32

Thank you so much for having me, it truly is my honor to share these teachings, and I love talking about yoga. And it's always so wonderful to hear from students who have had such a positive experience with the practice. So thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 30:50

Thank you! So, at Two Piers, we are committed to providing resources, and support to people in challenging environments. And this is one of those resources that we want to make available and let people know about. And if you're interested in finding out more about Two Piers Consulting, you can find information about us on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com. We offer services for both individuals and organizations. And you can follow us on any of our social media platforms. So Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And of course, we would love if you comment and review on our podcast episodes on the various platforms. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you the next episode.

Stress In Times of Confinement

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

This week, we invite our first guest to join us in discussing stress in times of confinement. Alisa Tijerina helps us explore experiences and observations related to recognizing and managing stress when we can't leave the house, (or our workplace). 

We’ve included a transcript of our conversation below:

Erica: Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season One, Episode Five. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we will be talking about stress. We also have our first guest today, which, with social distancing, has been a technological challenge, but we're making it work. So, joining us is Alisa Tijerina. Welcome, Alisa!

Alisa: Hi, Erica. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Erica: So, Alisa has some experience with stress, and particularly stress in the, uh, in a confined environment. So, yeah, Alisa, do you wanna tell us a little bit about yourself?

Alisa: Um, yeah. So, I have worked in oil and gas for multiple years now too many to even count. Um, and I've lived all over the world and have worked in confined spaces. I've worked on an offshore, oil rig, and I've worked in the middle of the desert. I've worked in the Arctic. So, lots of confined spaces, high hazard industry, and, of course, lots of stress.

Erica: Yes. So great opportunity to contribute to contribute to this podcast. So April is stress Awareness Month and we thought it would be appropriate to discuss stress in the context of confinement as much of the world right now is still under a stay at home order and will likely be for some time in the future. So, in this podcast, today will be sharing our experiences between Alisa and myself and what has worked for us, and what has worked for some other folks as well so that you can potentially find some gems that you can utilize.

Alisa: And of course, we will share the things that have failed for us as well because there's been a lot of that.

Erica: Yes - "what does not work." But a caveat here: so, we are not psychologists, and we can only share our lived experiences, and some other resource is that we found that will hopefully be of use to you. So, what is stress? And is it bad? Kind of, this is, this is a fundamental question. So, Medline is a site hosted by the National Institute of Health, and it's, it's really helpful. It provides a definition for us of stress. So, stress, as defined by them, is a feeling of emotional or physical tension. It can come from any event or thought that makes you feel frustrated, angry or nervous. Stress is your body's reaction to a challenge or demand. In short bursts, stress can be positive, such as when it helps you avoid danger or meet a deadline. But when stress lasts for a long time, it may cause harm to your health. So, Alisa, how do you feel about that definition?

Alisa: Makes sense! Yeah, totally makes sense. I, uh, I like the positive stress. I like the adrenaline of the short burst. And I do definitely think that it makes me, um, perform better, under stress, but as long as it's in the short burst time frame. No, I really do - I thrive on that. I mean, that's like the, that's the adrenaline rush. That's the, "I've got a deadline. We're gonna you know, we're gonna stay up. We're gonna do this! We're gonna finish it. It's gonna be awesome. We're gonna rock it." You know that. That's -that is, um you know, it's an upper. I feel like I perform well under those conditions.

Erica: Yea, I mean, that's how, like, that's how amusement parks and carnivals make their money, right? Because I know that at a certain point, humans do like that kind of, um, short burst of adrenaline, which is stress.

Alisa: Absolutely. But the thing about amusement parks is that, you know, that ride's gonna end, right? So, you're not gonna be... I think I would be... I would have chronic stress if I knew I was going on a roller coaster for 10 years or whatever it was that would be horrible. But for that two minutes, "Great! I'm on it. Yes - let me right again."

Erica: And, of course, there's an element to that of control, and it's our choice, and our agency hasn't been taken away,

Alisa: ...and we're confident that it will end, and we will be back, yeah, back on our feet and able to eat a funnel cake.

Erica: Yeah, but today we'll be primarily talking about chronic stress, right? Chronic stress is the opposite of that. So that's the one where we do not have an end date to it. It's not associated with a specific event. It doesn't, like, peak and then pass. Chronic stress is just sort of that noise that exists in the background. And we know that chronic stress has all sorts of implications to it. And those can be physical. They can be health related. It could be high blood pressure, heart disease. There's all sorts of health related issues connected to chronic stress, but it can also be relational. It can take a toll on our relationships. It can take a toll on our performance, our careers, etcetera... Do you have any examples of how chronic stress...

Alisa: ...has affected me? Yeah. Um, well, I would say that it took me a while to even recognize chronic stress because I thought that was just my normal. I thought, you know, I'm gonna in this intense job. I am in a job where I'm accountable for people's lives. Um, I'm the one who has to be strong for everybody. It's just it's a high stress job. Or, you know, you know, I had those experiences, and I just, I just thought that that was my normal. I didn't actually associate it with stress. I associate it with, "I have a high level of stress tolerance because I'm in a demanding job." Um, and I'm in a... and I'm essentially in a box in the ocean having to manage this demanding job. Um, so that's, you know, that confinement on top of a demanding job, you know, is it - you know, it's just, it's additive, so it's even an additional stress. It took me a while to realize that even that, that normal of a demanding job, that kind of, you know, my normal day of a demanding job was still causing stress, you know, on me. And that was the chronic stress. And when I thought I was fine; I was actually experiencing a lot of stress.

Erica: Yeah, like very high levels. Yeah. So, I want to explore a few things there. First of all, um, this idea that we - we're almost like frogs in boiling water sometimes, right? We don't - we don't even recognize the amount of stress that we're under until either it's alleviated, perhaps, and we realize, like, "Whoa, I just let this way off my shoulders." Or... until, unfortunately, something happens, so, you know, we have, like, a heart attack, or we, um we snap at somebody that we love or we make some sort of mistake or oversight that, that costs us in some way or hurt somebody else. So, what were some of the ways that you found to recognize when you were under this level of stress that had sort of become normalized to you?

Alisa: Hmmm. Good question. The analogy you used with the frog in the boiling water? I think that just hits the nail on the head. Right? So, if you think about just kind of going back to that analogy putting the frog directly in boiling water, that's the acute stress, putting it in the cold water and then boiling it. That's the chronic stress. I mean, that's a that is, seriously, a perfect analogy.

Erica: So how are some ways that you identify when you are feeling or when you're experiencing chronic stress? Because if, if you're anything like me, it takes something to, like, put the light bulb on that, "Oh. Oh no. I am stressed! And I've probably been operating under, like, a huge amount of stress for a while now."

Alisa: Absolutely. So, I...

Erica: Is it, like, physical? Is it relational? Is an emotional? What is it for you?

Alisa: So, there's... Yeah. So, all three. Yes, yes, yes. Um, but first of all, I would say that it took me years to figure this out, and it was not all of a sudden that I was like, "Oh, this is how I feel." And, "Oh, I'm stressed." No, no, no. I mean, we're talking like 15... like not not even like, one year, two years... I mean, 15 years

Erica: In your career, as an adult...

Alisa: In my career as an adult to figure this out. Um, which I mean, I consider myself pretty smart and 15 years to learn something...

Erica: Yeah, and accomplished

Alisa: 15 years to learn something? Oh, my God. Like that's a long time. Um, personally, I get - I hold stress in my stomach, and I've known that since I was a kid. Um, you know, anxiety and stress. I feel it in my stomach. I end up, um, you know, having a stomachache, or I feel like after the bathroom, but I don't really. You know that, that that kind of physical reaction, I definitely have. I do find my heart beats faster. Um, I get colder. You know those are kind of easy physical tell tales. Um, emotional: I find that if I have chronic stress, things that normally wouldn't bother me are bothering me. I find that I'll snap at my mom at something that she's, you know, done my entire life. But, you know, today it's bothering me and that that's a bit of a trigger.

Erica: Yeah, those all make sense. I think for me, I tend to tense my shoulders up and so I'll get like an aching pain in my left shoulder, and that's an indicator to me that I'm chronically stressed. Or like tension headaches are another one, um, and my blood pressure goes up when I normally have very low blood pressure. But when I am under stress, that's definitely a quick, easy measure for me to tell that something is wrong. And I agree completely - I think, like, the other week we had so many different things that were going on and really some, some tragedy that I hadn't probably dealt with enough. And so, something tiny, like a LinkedIn post that was a misattribution of, you know, somebody's like poetry just kind of put me into a meltdown, and I thought, "Oh, this is a... This is a gift. This is an indicator that I am clearly stressed right now because something this small doesn't really matter in the grand scheme."

Alisa: That's really, um, interesting that you say that because that, that really... If you tie into what's going on in the world right now with Corona virus, um, and people working from home and you know, people getting sick and, um, confinement. All of that, uh, is an added stressor.

Erica: Yeah. So, in the time of Corona virus, I think where we are all dealing with various levels of anxiety, various levels of grief, even those of us who haven't lost a loved one, um, we're grieving, you know, maybe the loss of a job? Grieving the loss of opportunity or a future that we had pictured for ourselves that now doesn't look like that will happen. Um, or the loss of, you know just are normal. Normal is kind of gone for a little bit. We'll have a new normal, but we're just not there yet. So, there's some grief involved in that. And in a context like this, where all of those stressors are piling up on each other, it just feels a bit like a... like a boiler room. You know, it feels a bit like under pressure, because there's no relief path.

Alisa: It's that frog in the in the pot of boiling water. 

Erica: Yeah, so you know, there are different... I'm sure there's different ways that each of us respond to chronic stress and building that awareness is probably different for each person. Right? It sounds different between you and I what are indicators are for that. And, um, I think you've done quite a bit of yoga, right? Have you found that that's... has that been kind of a tool for you at all?

Alisa: Yoga has been good because it has helped me listen to my body.

Erica: Yeah, that makes sense.

Alisa: Like you were saying about your shoulders tensing... 

Erica: Yeah...  

Alisa: You know they're constantly telling you in yoga, you know, "relax your shoulders, relax your shoulders." 

Erica: "Are you clenching your jaw?" And you're like, "Oh, wow..."

Alisa: Yeah, I am.

Erica: "I am clenching my jaw! Thank you." Yeah, you don't even realize it.  For me, I had a similar experience with meditation. So, working offshore, it was meditation that gave me that brief kind of interlude where I could put the weight down. And then I realized how heavy the weight was when I went to go pick it back up again, which is, um, very helpful for understanding just how, uh, just how maxed out you are, I think.

Alisa: I've always struggled with mental meditation. Um, I keep trying, and over the last time, this last month with the Covid 19, I have. I've downloaded Headspace, and I've been doing that daily. Um, but I'm not anywhere as near where, you know, where you are, but yoga definitely makes a difference for me.

Erica: Do you find that that has given you any tools, that you apply?

Alisa: Absolutely. So, yoga has allowed me to, um, well, first of all, let me tell you my experience with yoga. I didn't like it. At all. When I first started it, you know, probably 20 years ago, more than that, because I felt like it wasn't a workout - it was just stretching. Um, and then I would have to...

Erica: People would tell me it's boring, and I think...  

Alisa: Yeah, I would have to, I would have to do my stretching, my yoga, and then I would still have to go run or, you know, exercise or go lift weights or something. So, I never really thought it was a workout. Um, but over the years, I ended up rupturing and disc in my back playing tennis and did a lot of yoga for the recovery. And when I started doing that, I realized how beneficial it was for me, and then I was, was addicted to it after that, I do, um I mean, I don't do a whole lot of it now, but I'm pretty regular. Um, but I found that by doing yoga, it allows you, you know you learn how to listen to your body. You learn how to listen to, or figure out what hurts, how you're feeling. There's a lot of, um, you know, you're focusing on just that hour, that, “Now.”  

Erica: Being present.  

Alisa: Being present, putting all those other worries, all those other things that are going on in your life. You're, you know, dedicating that yoga practice too, uh, to you and to, you know, just, you know, your body. So, um, I have gotten a lot out of it.

Erica: Yeah, I think for me it's been beneficial on the mat, and I really benefit from that awareness off the mat that you start to think like, "Oh, I'm clenching my jaw." "Oh, I'm tensing my shoulders." Those little indicators that I might otherwise not be observant of or not even noticed because they're just part of my normal day to day. And for me meditation was a big part of that. Just having that 20 minutes to take the weight off my shoulders and put it down for a little bit. It then made me aware of how much I was carrying in the first place. Um, and then you can adjust, right? And during times like this, where we're all, we are all stressed to some extent or another, we can sort of dial back our expectations on performance a little bit. Maybe you are not gonna perform at 100%. Or we can expect to know to puts mitigations in place because we know that we'll snap it or mom or cry it that commercial or whatever it is that are, you know, however, it is that we express our stress.  

Erica: So, we've talked a little bit about recognizing stress and how to understand when it is that we're stressed, because I don't think we can take that for granted. And I think that's one of the most important parts. But then there's also an element of how do we deal with chronic stress when we're in it? How do we mitigate it? So, what are your thoughts on that?

Alisa: So, my thoughts on how to deal with it... Um I mean, I've learned a lot of things. I've tried a lot of things over the years. I think one of the first things that's important is really to understand why you're feeling it and what kind of, what the actual root cause of that is. You know, why, you know, Are you feeling stressed or are you feeling anxious or are you feeling the way you're feeling because of, you know, because of Covid, because you're worried about your family because you're worried about your neighbors because there's something going on at your work? Um, what is it

Erica: …Or you don't have work?

Alisa: Maybe you don't have work?

Erica: Maybe you've been laid off.

Alisa: You know that there's all these stressors out in the world and I think understanding what that, what the root cause of that stressor is, is actually the first thing that you should do, because if you can name it, then you can, you can try to mitigate it?  

Erica: Yeah, or even just address it and acknowledge it. I think that there's... there is some freedom in recognizing those things that we cannot mitigate right? That whole question of, once we know what the issue is stressing us out, is there something that we can do about it? If so, do it. And if not, if there's nothing you can do about it, then you can put that to the side for a period of time and, and observe. But understanding that there's nothing that you could do about it is kind of freeing in a way, sometimes,

Alisa: Yeah. I think that approaching the stress logically is really important. Because when we're stressed, your initial reaction is not, you're not necessarily thinking logically. Your emotions, you're feeling, you're feeling emotional, you're thinking, you could be thinking with your emotions. So, if you can approach it and try to, write it down, figure out what kind of what it is. You know, am I... I'm stressed because I've, um because I've lost my job. Um, and then you think, "Do I have an emergency fund?" "Do I have this or how can I? You know, how can I feed my family?" And if you can figure out ways to address those, uh, those things, then it, it helps you, um, at least you know you're addressing the thing that's you know, concerning, concerning you.  

Erica: Yeah, there's been a lot published recently from kind of astronauts giving their thoughts on living with stress in isolation. And one of the things that Chris Hatfield recommends is, or one of the analogies he makes with being in space, and the current COVID crisis is that there's this, like, big, unspoken danger out there that's not clearly defined. It's just this kind of big, amorphous, frightening thing. Um, and so, you know, operating a rocket ship is like that. There's just this, there's always a constant elevated level of danger, and it's sort of nameless and quiet. And he compares that to Corona virus. And, to think, Corona virus, it's really, like, the current situations are hitting at every level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? That that philosophy, that there are fundamental needs such as, you know our physical needs that need to be met and our psychological needs that need to be met and really every one of those right now, with Corona virus is, sort of, under threat. Physical needs, physical health. Um, our financial security our, just never mind psychological security. So, um

Alisa: So yeah, I think it's important to, you know, you said this big amorphous, frightening thing. Ah, so if you can name that identify, identifying it versus "Oh, my God, there's this big, amorphous, frightening thing" 

Erica: In the closet.  

Alisa: Yeah, if you could actually break that down even if you can't solve it or even if you can't mitigate it, you at least know what it is.

Erica: You can put a name to the boogeyman.

Alisa: You can put a name to the, exactly. You put a name to the boogeyman.

Erica: Yeah.

Alisa: And I think once you do that. And I think at least for me, that's always, that's been a good first step. Ah, and then the second step is trying to, um almost take your mind off of it, right? So you, you know, have a routine. You, uh, figure out what your, you know, maybe you want to eat healthy or you want to exercise or you need, um you know, you set up something where you can speak to your friends and to your family on a regular basis, you know, understanding what those things are out there that, um, you know, you personally need, like, like the hierarchy of needs, right? So what, what are certain things that I, that I need that'll make me feel better. Like when I worked offshore, I was offshore for, um, multiple weeks at a time. When I first started, it was, I had all these ambitious goals which were, "I'm gonna exercise every day. I'm gonna eat healthy. I'm not gonna go to... not gonna eat any doughnuts. I'm gonna work, you know? I'm gonna work. I gonna get all my work done, you know..."

Erica: You're going to write a book.

Alisa: “Inbox zero! I'm gonna, you know, all of these things." And those are my goals. And, you know, 1st, 1st trip out there fail, fail, fail, fail. Right? And that was a bit of a, bit of a downer. And then I realized that, you know, that was a bit of a ridiculous goal to have, you know, because the reality is "Do I need to do that?" No.

Erica: Also, you're not oper... Even if you could do that all at 100% there's no way to operate 100%

Alisa: All the time

Erica: Under that, under that kind of circumstance, where...

Alisa: But I think, so, that's... that's interesting that you say that because we say that that's 100%. But what you, when you, when I think about 100% like, it's not... This isn't a sprint. This is a marathon, right? So, you're having to... I can definitely do a sprint at 100% energy exertion for a short burst. That's my acute stressor. You know that's coming in. I'm gonna do an all-nighter. I'm gonna get this presentation out, or I'm gonna, you know, fix, you know, whatever it is. But the, the enduring kind of chronic stress, you can't. You can't live that same way. And right now, the entire world is under additional chronic stress with what's going on. So how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? Yeah, So I think having that routine of "I'm gonna eat good every day, not eat any chocolate, not eat any doughnuts, exercise every day, speak to... finish all my work, inbox zero." That was lofty. Ah, and what I ended up doing was realizing that my routine needed to have, um needed to have days where I, you know, worked hard. But I also had rest days, you know, I wasn't... I didn't ever aim to work out every day. I'd work out two days and then be off one day and then work out two days and be off one day and work out doesn't necessarily mean two hours in a gym. It meant right. I'm gonna get X amount of steps, and that's it. Um, and then there's certain days that I said, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be watching TV. I'm gonna watch TV. I'm gonna watch trash reality TV just to let my mind not, you know, worry about all the things that are going on.  

Erica: I think that that kind of structure is really important because so many of us feel guilty or feel like we're just distracting ourselves with that relaxation period. So if you find cooking to be relaxing or if you find playing a video game to be relaxing or just surfing the Internet to be whatever it is that you find relaxing, that needs to be reinvigorating you during these times, like those, those activities are valuable. And if you cannot do that without guilt, because you think like "Oh, I should be doing something else right now, I should be writing this opus," you know, we're in... we're being quarantined. So therefore, I have to, you know, create all these whatever Pinterest projects. And they have to be perfect. And my kids have to be perfectly educated and all these goals and you don't block in any real rejuvenating time, then when you do get those little breaks, sometimes it's not actually rejuvenating. You end up feeling guilty like you should be doing something else. So, I think structure is great and that structure needs to build in the downtime as well.

Alisa: I think that you made a good point about the rejuvenating activities. Right, so there's times that I would find where I would just spend an hour on Facebook or I would spend an hour on Instagram, and that was a time draw. But it wasn't rejuvenating for me, and I had to... it took me a little while to realize what are my rejuvenating activities? And those are the ones that I should actually invest, invest in

Erica: and see it as an investment. And, yeah, it's not a waste. It is. It's actually an investment that pays returns

Alisa: that's going to allow me to perform better on those.  

Erica: Yeah, on the other activities.  

Alisa: Yeah, but I did have to limit, like, the things that I just felt were, you know, were wasteful cause I get, I mean even now, like I could spend three hours just flipping through random things on Facebook or on the Internet.  

Erica: And do you feel better afterwards?

Alisa: No, I don't.

Erica: If you did, then that's fine. No shame on flipping through Facebook.  

Alisa: Exactly.  

Erica: Great.

Alisa: Yeah, if you did, it's fine. But that's the, that's a bit about understanding yourself, understanding how you feel. You need to know what caused, like, so this is gonna be totally nerdy, and I will share this to you. Ah, and to the, uh, web listeners. Um, one of the things that I find relaxing is I can mess with Excel if I'm messing with, like an Excel spreadsheet.  

Erica: Yes, you are an engineer.

Alisa: I know. I know, right? If I'm messing with an Excel spreadsheet, I do find that, like, oddly relaxing. That's really weird. Maybe...

Erica: We're not gonna shame engineering enthusiasm here.

Alisa: That's true. Anyways, I find that relaxing so I could sit there and, like, mess with that for two hours and then come out and be like, you know, rejuvenated. It's all about just understanding what those things are for you. Cooking is another one for me. I really like cooking. So, um, I find, uh, finding new recipes looking online for different things and then trying em out. I find that to be really relaxing.

Erica: Yeah. I share your enthusiasm about cooking. That is definitely relaxing for me. And yet so many people I know, if I gave them a recipe to execute, they would not find that relaxing. That would be a stressor for them. Right? And maybe that's one of the challenging things right now that we're separated from each other and from our networks is that previously, if there was something that was really stressing me out that I wasn't very good at, I could sort of trade with somebody on that, I could say like, "Hey, can..." I could outsource it. I could either hire somebody to do it or I could barter, you know, um, and now that's becoming more and more difficult. So, there are things that we're having to do for ourselves, like cut our own hair, which is...

Alisa: Very difficult.  

Erica: Difficult. Yeah... And so  

Alisa: Or you could just do like me. I'm not cutting my hair and not dying my hair.

Erica: I'm growing out a pixie cut with hats, so...  

Alisa: We're good?  

Erica: Yeah. So that's the key, though, right? It's figuring out what you can let go of, and there are things that are, we just need to have some self-forgiveness, I think, and some self-compassion during this time. We won't get everything done and the stuff we do get done, it might not be perfect.

Alisa: Absolutely. I think not just during this time, though, like, right now, yes, especially important because everybody's under more chronic stress than normal, but I think also we are so hard. And we just in general, general, we, people are so hard on themselves and you're, you know, constantly trying to, you know, improve this, or do this, self-help book on this, you know, keeping up with the Joneses. Or you know what, whatever it is, the promotion at work. Um, we're very, people are just very hard on themselves. And we do need to, you know, give ourselves a break.

Erica: Yeah, maybe that's ah, that's some lessons we can carry through after this: hand washing and self-compassion. Two things we need to not stop doing when Corona virus passes.  

Alisa: Oh my gosh, I know, I totally... the amount of times that I wash my hands now! I think we should have been doing this before.  

Erica: Well yeah.  

Alisa: Um, that much... Um, but my hands are super dry now, but it's OK. Going to keep washing

Erica: Also need to moisturize... So, uh, we've talked about sort of recognition. We've talked about adding structure. What are some of the other tactics that you find are helpful with managing say chronic stress?

Alisa: I find that there's a, that there's certain folks that really rejuvenate me. Um, certain people that I've been friends with forever, I have really good relationships with. And, ah, when I talked to them, um, we totally get each other and, and we help each other. Um ah, lot of my friends... I moved around the world a lot and ah, a lot of my friends are very, uh, easy to, um just pick up the phone and you don't have to... Yeah, maybe I haven't talked to you in a year, but when we do talk, it's just like we, you know, saw each other yesterday, so that is really nice. And I do find that I have to... that having those relationships and having those trusted people and making time for those trusted people, um helps me calm down. It makes, it gives me perspective in a world that's going crazy. Um, because, you know, I care about them they care about me. We help each other. Just that. Just that emotional support I find really kind of, Earth... You know grounds me, um, and is helpful.  

Erica: Yeah, that raises a good point about support networks. I really feel right now for the people who... You know, you and I have both worked offshore, where for weeks on end you are on this kind of postage stamp of a facility you can't leave. The only way out is on a boat or a helicopter, and you're not with people that you chose to be with, you're with people that are your colleagues. And sometimes those colleagues are great, and you have great relationships. Sometimes not. Um, but regardless, they're not your loved ones, and you didn't choose to be with them. So right now, I really feel for people who are either, um isolated and don't have those connections or people who are quarantining with individuals who either they have not chosen to be with or, they've chosen it but it's not a healthy relationship. You know, we're seeing rates of domestic violence just skyrocket right now, and people that are quarantined with abusers. Um, so, for people who don't have an escape or don't have that external network, we want to encourage them to reach out to the resource is that are available. There are crisis lines. There are, there are help resources for those who maybe don't have somebody to talk to you. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing your insights with us today on, um, chronic stress in confined environments, and what that looks like, how to identify it, and maybe someone used to deal with it. Do you have any, kind of parting thoughts?

Alisa: I do have one other way that, um I handle stress in confinement. Um, and it's trying to gamify things.  

Erica: Yeah, I used to do that...  

Alisa: Yeah. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who aren't, you know, I mean, I'm confined by myself with two dogs, and, you know, I know other folks are with their, you know, spouses or their children or their you know, grandparents or their relatives. Some are with their coworkers offshore, there you know, there's all sorts of people that are confined? Yeah, all sorts of arrangements. But however you can, like, make, try to make something fun out of what you're doing. Even if you're making little games for your dogs like I'm doing, which cracks me up, I'm not sure they find it amusing.  

Erica: Yeah, I mean, it might be that doing the dishes is like your 100-point task for the day, you know, and giving yourself that reward - I think that's... that's important. Sometimes we just assume that doing the dishes or shampooing your hair today is it's just kind of table stakes. And in reality, maybe times are tough and like our, our whole schedule and cadence has kind of gone out the door. So just give yourself credit for those things, whether you do it in an Excel spreadsheet like I used to do. Maybe not for shampooing my hair, but, you know, like I used to give different activities different points, Um, or if you do it with stickers or gold stars or whatever it is, those little games can kind of ... 

Alisa: Make a difference  

Erica: Make the wins more visible and not get taken for granted. Yeah,  

Alisa: Absolutely  

Erica: So. So one kind of similarity I noticed, interested in your thoughts on, between offshore and this current situation is that it, it's been pretty disruptive to just sort of physiological cycles. You know, biological cycles, like sleeping, eating. We kind of can eat at any time. I don't know how often I've looked at the clock and been like. Oh, no, I've missed lunch entirely.  

Alisa: Or me where I need to social distance from the refrigerator because I have a snack every hour.

Erica: Yeah, or just sleeping. I know so many people with, um, sort of not getting as much sunlight have really had disruptions to their sleep. So they're their circadian rhythm gets thrown off. They're, like, staying up all night, sleeping all day or, um, or just not sleeping because they're stressed or they're sleeping too much because they have more flexibility in their schedule. They don't have somewhere to be. And that can really have an impact. So, um, do you have any advice on how you've handled that when you were offshore?

Alisa: Absolutely well, so the food thing I stayed I personally still struggle with cause I go to the refrigerator every hour or a snack. But offshore I didn't have that issue because we had set mealtimes. Um, in terms of the sleep pattern, though, I do find similarities between offshore and what's going on right now. I, um there you're getting up earlier. Working long hours. I would end up working out after, I'd, you know, after a workday. So, then I wasn't tired. And then I struggled to go to sleep, and then I had to get up earlier and that I was even more tired. Yeah. So, um, I you know what I would do is work out a little bit earlier, then eat dinner, and then try to do it. I did find screen time, looking at your phone or the TV or the computer right before you're gonna, right before you go to bed, I mean, they, lots of folks, you know, say that, but I definitely find that if I don't look at the screen before I go to bed, it's easier for me to go to sleep. I never could take any kind of Tylenol PM or anything like that offshore because you have to be alert. You wake up at 2 am. Exactly. So, I never did any of that. But I did find that at least if I shut my devices down If I start reading, um, you know, I'll read and then I'll usually end of falling asleep. And I've been doing the same thing here, right? Not watching TV. I mean, I watch TV, but then I'll go to bed and read a little bit. Don't go straight from TV to screen toe bed.

Erica: Yeah, I've had to set, like a "go to bed alarm" that just starts the process of going to bed.  

Alisa: Yeah, I've got one of those.  

Erica: I think sunlight for whoever can get some sunlight, even if you can't go outside for a walk, you know, just sitting by a window during lunch or just some way to get your brain to sync with the sunlight. And this is for people who are working day shift. Anyone who's working night shifts, somehow... that brings its own challenges. But there's SAD lights available, you know, these full spectrum lights are available. I have one of my office. So when I know I have to do early morning calls, I set the light and, um and that really helps me, but definitely putting some structure in. I think we take it for take it for granted sometimes until kind of schedule is all sorts of messed up. And that has an impact, you know, the sleep deprivation, the like, food... waiting till you're hangry until you finally, like, go get something to eat that can really take a toll as well. And it just amplifies those emotions.

Alisa: Yeah, I totally agree. I don't have a sun light. I uh, I've seen them before. Um, try one of those. I do find also, I just having lived in Alaska for so long, I, um, have now for the last couple of years, I take a lot of vitamin D. Um, even when, uh, yeah, I Even when I do get son, I still take vitamin D. I just find that I was deficient, definitely for the multiple years I was in Alaska. So now I, um, get a lot of benefit from that.

Erica: Vitamin D and vitamin B or the two that I, um, that I found really help me offshore, and I kind of have cut back on them right now, but, um, when I'm not getting enough sunlight I definitely think vitamin D, and vitamin B for me, were really helpful. So that kind of wraps our discussion on stress and chronic stress in confined environments. Is there anything else you wanted to share?

Alisa: Um, just to say thank you. This was very interesting. I've listened all your podcast so far. So, um, I know there's been four, and this is the fifth but very excited to see the future of the Two Piers podcasting and thanks for having me on, and I am just, I know this is crazy times in the world, and it's crazy times for everybody, and I do find that I just get randomly emotional. Um, and I imagine everybody else is going through that, too, so I know we're not going through that alone, um, and it's good to be able to talk about the things that we do to help us get through those times.

Erica: Well, thank you for being my first guest and for bearing with us as we sort out the technical challenges of doing this in the time of social distancing, um, so we appreciate it, and we can't wait to have you back for another podcast at some point in the future.  

Alisa: Fantastic. Thank you.  

Erica: Thanks. So, and as always, you can find us on the various social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Lincoln, and you can see what we're all about on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com. So, if you think you could use support in your work environment or if your company is looking to improve diversity and inclusion, please reach out to us, schedule a free consultation and we'll be able to help you. And as far as the podcast goes, please leave us a rating. Leave us a review and tell us what you think or reach out directly. We'd love to get your feedback, so we'll see you back here shortly for the next podcast.

A Survival Guide to Self Isolation and Working From Home

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Hello, and welcome back to the Two Piers podcast, Season One, Episode Four. This week, in the midst of the global coronavirus pandemic, we’ll be sharing some ways to stay grounded while we transition to self-isolation and working from home. We also recognize that many folks are taking on the additional transition of having kids home from school during the day which can add an entirely new set of challenges to navigate. More than that, people are dealing with an incredible amount of stress. We are facing risks and uncertainty in many structural areas of our life, such as access to medical care, the financial system, etc… So, when those feelings of panic or anxiety start to rise, focus on what you can do, rather than what’s outside your sphere of control. The entire world is facing this crisis together. Before we get started, we want to say a sincere thank you to the medical professionals out there fighting this pandemic and putting their own lives at risk. We appreciate everything you’re doing. 

So, we’re going to try to keep this podcast relatively light-hearted and very much tactical, because there’s enough existential dread out there to last a while and we need to focus on what’s actually within our reach. In that vein, let’s start with some small silver linings to self-imposed isolation.

We can think of a few...

• Firstly, yoga pants! (or maybe no pants?)

• Also, you finally get a chance to use that leave-in conditioner you’ve been wanting to try 

• And a big one: pet cuddles, on draft

But we also know there are some serious downsides as well, including:

• Lack of structure

• Isolation

• Boredom, depression, or feelings of suffocation

We’ll start out discussing strategies for staying sane and healthy while social distancing and self-quarantining, then we’ll address the ever-controversial “working from home.”

First of all, are you an introvert or extrovert? Be prepared to be affected differently depending on how you naturally re-energize. Personally, I’m an introvert, (so shout out to my other introverts that are at the ready with their recommended reading lists), but even I am susceptible to cabin fever, so my heart goes out to the extroverts who are suffering magnitudes more. We’ll try to highlight where certain advice might be more applicable depending on whether you’re an introvert or extrovert.

One piece of advice that we’ll offer universally is to take control of your environment. Being amongst clutter is a big environmental stressor - it can act like static noise in the background of your life. So put the time in now to get your environment as welcoming and calming as possible. It will pay back dividends in your mental wellbeing and your productivity. If reorganizing your home office or bedroom feels incredibly daunting, maybe try gamifying it. Give different tasks or rooms different weights and give yourself points and some small rewards at the end of the day or week. In these times where we can feel a loss of agency, taking control of our environment can be really therapeutic. There are enough legitimate things to worry about. Let’s not allow that pile of shoes in the corner be sucking up any of our positive energy. 

Another universally applicable piece of advice is to get some sunshine and fresh air, even if that means it’s only on your front porch or stoop. Maybe take a coffee break on your balcony or patio. If you can’t squeeze in any natural sunlight, then we suggest investing in a full spectrum light for your workspace or kitchen, as well as some Vitamin D supplements. Both of these can impact energy levels and overall mood. It’s really important to keep an eye on your mood level, by the way. It’s easy to get caught up in a negative spiral and without others around to help keep us regulated, we might not even realize how poorly we’re feeling until we’re really in a lurch, at which point judgement and perspective can be skewed. If you’re suffering from depression or experiencing self-harm or suicidal ideation or thoughts, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255, or if you prefer text to speaking, text HOME to 741741 for the crisis text line. 

Now is the time to be scheduling video calls with loved ones and long lost friends, especially if you’re feeling isolated. Just beware of the draw of social media. When we’re craving interactions with others, Social Media can end up feeling like a supplement, but it can be a one-way feed and can sometimes make us feel even worse. It can be good in doses, but it can also become a black hole for your time and energy. If you come away from a Social Media binge feeling refreshed and motivated, then great! I know that for many of us, however, it can be a time sink, and we feel more anxiety rather than less. This is where time-blocking can be key. We’ll discuss this more a bit later. 

So how about some self-care options. Do you have that drawer full of fancy beauty products or bath bombs that you never actually use? Well now’s your chance. Taking a bath can be a great way to get ready for bed, especially when your mind is in a million different places and you’re struggling to get it to quiet down. I feel like we all probably have that pedicure kit that someone got us as a gift that’s never gotten used. Well, mine is making an appearance this weekend. Maybe try out that weird charcoal mask in the bottom of your drawer. If it leads to a breakout, it’s pretty low stakes and now you have permission to throw it out. It’s also a good opportunity to pause some of your beauty routines for a reset, like plucking eyebrows, getting your locks trimmed or shaving your legs. Always wanted to try waxing your legs instead? Well now’s your chance to go fully wooly so you can try a different depilation method once all this is over. Want to change your eyebrow shape? Let those brows grow back in and start with a clean slate. I’m in the middle of growing out a pixie cut, so when I do finally go to see my stylist, she’s definitely going to have more to work with. 

This one might not be super popular, but it’s a big one: try to limit alcohol and binge eating or mindless snacking. Alcohol is a natural depressant, and right now, that might not be what you need, even if you think it’s going to make you feel better. You’re also probably getting less activity in, so increasing your calories can make you feel lethargic and it can start adding weight during a time when we don’t need to be increasing comorbidity risks. Also, importantly, it can end up being a crutch that masks boredom or depression and there are much healthier, more effective ways to tackle those two maladies. Next time you reach for the fridge outside of mealtime, ask yourself whether you’re really hungry, or you’re just bored.

If you feel like your brain is starting to turn to mush, try learning something new or try mastering something old:

• experiment with new recipes 

• Try an online yoga class or dance class 

• Check out edX or Lynda.com for online college courses

If you need some more passive mental stimulation, consider video games. For extroverts, maybe a multiplayer game with friends or relatives. There are also great video games for introverts as well, and they’re not all first person shooter games. Consider trying some puzzle games to give your brain a change of pace without complete vegetation. I don’t normally play video games much, but I am a big fan of Tetris Effect because it really helps me reach a state of flow. For a throwback game, Animal Crossings is out for Nintendo Switch this week. 

Another option to keep you busy and help with isolation is to try fostering an orphaned animal. It’s not a permanent commitment, but it will certainly make an impact on an animal’s life, and provide some companionship and cuddles in the short term. Reach out to your local animal shelter to find out about foster programs. 

So a few words about self-quarantining with a partner… Communication. Communication. Communication. Don’t let things fester. We don’t know how long this will drag out, or when we’ll finally be able to come up for some space and air, so you’re going to have to communicate in real time about how you’re feeling so you can each treat each other conscientiously. Personally, I highly recommend taking the love language quiz. It can help you better understand how to show your partner love in the way they value most, and it can also help you understand when they might be trying to show you love, just in a different way than you’d normally prefer. On a more tactical note, try setting up individual personal space. For us, I work in my home office in the front of the house and my spouse works in the back of the house. We only see each other for lunch, or if we text each other asking for a coffee refresh while the other is on a call. Also, if you can afford it, buy some noise cancelling headphones. This lets him play video games while I work on podcasts, or read my book. We are still cohabitating, just separately at times. 

On a more somber note, instances of domestic violence spike during times like these. If you are at risk, or know someone who is, please reach out to a local crisis line. These are trying times, pressure is high, and we’re all locking ourselves away together so tempers are bound to flare. You can reach the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.

So now we’re going to switch gears and talk about working from home. 

First thing’s first - get yourself set up properly. If you can afford it, try to get a decent chair and desk combination, or even work standing up. If you’re on calls all day, invest in a comfortable headset. When I was working from home regularly, I invested in a sit-stand desk and a full-spectrum light because they really helped with my energy levels, especially when I was taking early morning calls and it was still dark out. I also bought some IKEA art for the walls and a fake plant so that I had pleasant surroundings. This stuff might seem trivial in the midst of a pandemic, and you may not have the budget for new purchases right now, but there are options that won’t hit your wallet. Find a way to print or clip something at home that’s aesthetically pleasing, or even an encouraging quote to put up somewhere within your line of sight, and maybe pick a few green things from outside to put in a glass of water to add some flora to your space. It doesn’t have to be complicated or expensive, and I promise you that it will help. 

Now we’re going to talk about structure. Your day may already be quite structured if you have lots of meetings, like I do. If not, you can add structure to your day by setting up a calendar and time blocking. This applies to physical space as well. Keep your work space separate from your relaxation space if at all possible. This may simply mean two different chairs on opposite sides of the room if you’re in a studio, but trust me, it helps. When you do take any kind of extended break from work (i.e. more than a 5 minute browse of the news), try not to do it in your work space. For example, take your lunch at the table, or near a window. This segregation of space and time will help your relaxation feel like relaxation, and it will help your workday feel more productive. When work and relaxation start to blur together, it can impact our perception of quality for both. It’s hard for us to feel like we accomplished work during the day if we’re doing it from bed, and it’s hard to feel like you’ve really put work aside at night if your scenery hasn’t changed at all. 

You might be used to casual conversation with colleagues. These interactions provide valuable intellectual stimulation that can help stave off mental fatigue and spark creativity and problem solving. Even if you think you’re just chatting about weekend plans or debating mortgage refinancing, your brain is getting a much needed break. If you’re working from home on your own, find your mental break another way. You could do a video chat coffee break with colleagues, or schedule 10 minutes to watch cat videos on Instagram or browse Buzzfeed for memes. Again, time-blocking is key, and there are some great apps out there that can help you add structure so you don’t end up sucked into the blackhole that can be the internets. “Workflow Timer” and “Sloth - Task Manager” are two very basic apps that can help with time-blocking. 

For meetings, try mixing in video calls, should your hair allow, and don’t feel like you need to be all dolled up. Just getting to see people’s faces, shiny skin, matted hair and all, will help us relate as humans. We also recommend you practice your muting and unmuting skills because you do not need the stress of an unmuted faux pas. If in doubt, say “can you guys hear me?” loudly before yelling at the dog. Along those same lines, take the time to learn how to share your screen properly. If you need help, just ask. And as we’re all supporting each other right now, try to be forgiving of the background noises. Yes, Joey’s loquacious 4-year old might be breaking your train of thought, but everyone is doing their best. Conference call background noise is an excellent opportunity for us to exercise our focus muscles. If you’re finding that those muscles have atrophied since your college cramming days, don’t punish your colleagues. Instead, try some 5 minute meditation sessions on Headspace or Calm to get better at it! A few times a week will start to make a big difference in no time at all. 

Lastly, if you’re a manager, recognize that different people thrive in different environments. If you’re worried about your team’s productivity, rather than micro-manage or make assumptions, set specific objectives and milestones with clear deadlines, and schedule regular check-ins so that any barriers or challenges can be surfaced early for your intervention without you needing to micromanage. 

For the folks out there working from home and sharing their space with kids, and/or trying to homeschool, you’ve got this. In our household, we’re just managing furkids, and we’re not experts on homeschooling, but there are lots of resources popping up on the internet. Frankly, if the kids simply become experts in folding clothes and mowing the lawn over these next few weeks, it will still serve them well in life. This isn’t going to make or break their career chances, so give yourself a pat on the back and take a deep breath. 

If we have one overarching piece of advice, it’s to focus on compassion, be flexible, and let go of the small stuff. Schedules will be disrupted. We won’t perfectly master the new work life balance. But that’s ok. Find normalcy where you can and cherish your loved ones. 

If you have any questions or need some support, please reach out to us on whatever medium you’d like. Our contact information is on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com, and we’re on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn as well. We look forward to hearing from you. We’ll meet you back here soon, and in the meantime, stay home and stay safe.

Women in Leadership Conference - Recap

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Hi! Welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I’m your host, Erica D’Eramo. During our second episode of season one, we’ll be recapping the 20th annual Rice Women in Leadership conference. 

Ally Cedeno, founder of WomenOffshore kicked it off with a rousing welcome. She and her team did an incredible job pulling together speakers and content that struck a great balance. The sessions were realistic and honest, while remaining inspirational and energizing. We can’t cover all of the speakers and panelists, but we’ll try to cover a large portion of it. 

The opening keynote was masterfully presented by Ann Fox, a Marine Corps veteran and the president and CEO of Nine Energy Services. Her humor, humility and honesty made for a powerful, and at times heart-wrenching discussion. She reminded us that having a diverse set of perspectives can make the difference between life or death at times. 

From there, we had a choice of four morning panel sessions - I attended the Founders Corner: From Vision to Adventure. The panelists included Jillian Fink, CEO and Co-founder of OcciGuide, a medical device company; Kathleen Perley, CEO and Co-founder of Decode Digital, Diana Murakhovskaya, co-founder and General Partner, The Artemis fund, and Erin McClarty, Founder, Erin McClarty, PLLC. Side note: we’re big fans of Erin over here at Two Piers and we’ve been working with her for some time now. 

We learned from Diana that in 2019, only 2.8% of VC money went to companies founded by women, however 19% of all exit value comes from female founders. We clearly have some work to do.

One key theme was around what constitutes success versus failure.

Kathleen discussed the definition of a win and identifying the right KPIs or key performance indicators. In fact, testing out ideas and knowing something’s not right - that can be a win. Erin focused us on identifying what success was for us, and whether we’re working toward that. One helpful tactic is to identify what you’re “not” going to be. 

There was also a theme around structure, including blocking out time and setting boundaries, with yourself, your clients and your loved ones. It’s important to set aside time for reflection and strategy. Within your daily structure, we must make sure there’s a focus on what makes money, with an understanding that it needs to be both short term and long term revenue. The panelists also discussed setting aside a separate space or office to work in. Finding a coworking space or partner can also help add structure. 

One great question from the audience that we felt was particularly insightful: for over-achievers that are not used to having risks, how do we face potential failure? Erin suggested that communities such as the one at the Women in Leadership Conference, create the space to fail and share. Kathleen credited her academic struggles with dyslexia for teaching her how to get comfortable with failure and move on quickly. It doesn’t hold her back. Jillian recommended doing your research such that you have the confidence to go your own way. 

In parallel with the Founders Corner, was the Lessons Learned in Leadership panel. This included the following panelists:

• Lynda Clemmons, VP sustainable solutions at NRG discussed the value of listening to where people are at

• Sruba De, Vice President, Global Retail Insights & Solutions, Mastercard Advisors, discussed what makes a good leader: powerful communicator, ability to influence, thriving outside comfort zone. Sruba also discussed the importance of having our own set of personal directors: someone believes in you, mentor to sponsor, biggest critic. These should be people that have directly seen us work.

• Tandra Jackson, Managing Partner, KPMG discussed servant leadership and putting the client first

• GiGi Lindberg, VP and Commercial Relationship Manager, BBVA and Founder and CEO, Meritaj discussed tactics for, and importance of, responding rather than reacting. 

Midway through the day, we took a break for a networking lunch and met some of our fellow attendees. 

The afternoon included a selection of workshops, and Two Piers facilitated a session on Tough Conversations. So why this topic? Difficult conversations affect everyone. Fundamentally, we have a few choices - we can try to avoid them, we can handle them poorly, we can handle them well. We all know people that can handle them well. We discussed our intended learning outcomes:

• Recognize what makes difficult conversations difficult

• Identify tools to prepare for them

• Understand ways to navigate confrontation and de-escalation 

• Determine how to close out and resolve these interactions 

We won’t re-work the workshop here, but keep a lookout for a future podcast dedicated to navigating conversation. We had some great questions from the end, and have picked up some ideas for how to make the content even more valuable. 

While we were in the Tough Conversations workshop, Delifina Govia was facilitating her workshop called “How to Live for 300 Years - Maximize Your Personal and Professional Life” Delfina is a partner at Veritas Total Solutions, and we’re big fans of her here at Two Piers. Her interactive workshop focuses professionals on balancing their personal and professional lives. This was far from a lecture - it was a working session that even involved a bit of math. If you missed out on her workshop at the Women in Leadership Conference, she’ll be hosting a free, extended version of the workshop on March 6th to celebrate international Women’s Day.

Following the afternoon workshops, there was a panel discussion on The Frontier of Diversity and Inclusion in Business. The panelists included:

Deborah Byers - E&Y’s Americas Industry Leader and also E&Y’s Americas Oil and Gas leader

Janelle Daniel - VP HR, Community Relations and Sustainability at Transocean

Amy Dalton - SVP Americas, BCD Travel

Larry Perkins - Assoc. VP HR and Diversity Organizations MD Anderson

The panelists discussed where they saw the future of diversity, and it’s clear they all see it as a central tenet of doing business. 

Deborah raised the issue of unspoken rules and suggested we acknowledge them and either eliminate them or get them into the limelight. 

Janelle discussed the implications for industrial environments and the need to address technical environment, such as adequate PPE or suitable changing facilities. 

Larry observed that MD Anderson has always been good on paper. We loved his assertion that diversity is a fact, whereas inclusion is an act. We also need to lift as we climb and bring future generations with us.

Deborah noted that it takes 20% of a workforce to change before we start noticing a difference. You can look great on paper but we need to focus on the right roles. 

For the closing keynote, Sandy Asch discussed the Roar Leadership Experience. She stressed  the importance of being purposeful, transparent, calm and courageous. She also spoke powerfully about velcroing yourself to your purpose. This can help you stay on track, and also  energize you when you hit challenging times.  

We wrapped up the day with a reception hosted by Dean Peter Rodriguez, whom we want to thank for his support this year and in years prior for the Women in Leadership Conference. Another shout out to Ally Cedeno and her team for a great lineup and excellent content. 

Thank you for joining us on our second podcast. You can expect another installment in two week’s time. In the meantime, you can find more content on our social media feeds on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. As always, feel free to reach out via our website: twopiersconsulting.com.

Have a great week and we’ll meet you back here soon.

Welcome to our Two Piers Podcast!

We’ve included a text version of our podcast for accessibility.

Our introductory podcast gives an overview of who we are and what we do, along with some context and background regarding our philosophy. We  promise to keep these podcasts funny, engaging and relevant because your time is precious, as is space in your brain and on your playlist. So this is for you to use.

First, some background about myself. My name is Erica D’Eramo and I’m the founder and CEO of Two Piers. My career started with a Mechanical Engineering degree from Penn State University. I’ve spent nearly two decades in the energy industry, working domestically and internationally, in field-based roles and office roles, including engineering, operations management and finance. I saw, first hand, the challenges facing women, particularly those starting out in field-based roles. Following a three-year offshore rotational assignment in Angola, I decided to take a sabbatical and start this project, (Two Piers), to provide resources and support directly to women working in male dominated environments. During that sabbatical, I also conducted a study called Spot the Difference which was sponsored by BP and executed in conjunction with QuayFive - a consultancy based out of the UK.  We worked with 12 different FTSE 300 companies spanning multiple industries, each with international reach. We examined the career choices and motivations of employees and how they differed based on gender. We also examined the effectiveness of diversity and inclusion initiatives. There were some very interesting findings, which we will discuss further in a future podcast. 

So why gender diversity as a focus? For us, it relates back to engineering. We here at Two Piers hate to see waste, especially when it comes to human potential. Not only are we putting up unnecessary barriers for more than 50% of our potential workforce, but we also make it more  difficult for them to fully contribute when we have non-inclusive workplaces, or we evaluate them against how well they can conform to a masculine norm. Additionally, we see waste in the stressors this can put on team dynamics when the workforce begins to believe that gender outweighs meritocracy. This sows discord, distrust and disenchantment. We also feel that gender diversity is deeply misunderstood. Efforts to diversify a workforce and create a more inclusive environment are often seen as philanthropic initiatives as opposed to strategic business imperatives in today’s competitive, fast-changing world. In addition, gender is simply one facet of diversity, however it is more visible than many other aspects of diversity, and thus can act as an analogue to open the door to conversations on ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, socioeconomic diversity, neurodiversity, etc… We at Two Piers want to foster an intersectional conversation about diversity and gender.

So how are we tackling it? We are taking a two-pronged approach. We are committed to alleviating the current pain points of gender imbalance for those currently in the workforce by supporting individual women through workshops, coaching and resources such as this podcast. Some examples of focus areas are:

• Navigating pitfalls of masculine workplaces

• Setting and asserting boundaries

• Handling difficult conversations and confrontations

• Individualized coaching and planning

Some might ask whether a focus on equipping women with tools and tactics is paramount to victim blaming. Why should women change to fit the environment, as opposed to the environment changing? Well we fundamentally believe that women should not, in fact, have to change, however, we like to use the analogy of going to Mars. In the short term, we need some special toolkits  in the first place - you can consider these our psychological oxygen tanks, until there are enough successful women and enough systemic change to create the atmosphere that we want and need. To turn a blind eye out of squeamishness is to reject reality and set people up for failure. At the same time, equipping women with survival tactics is not enough. We need to address the systemic root causes by working with organizations.

The organization and corporate work that we do focuses on creating systemic and sustainable change. It also supports and sustains the resources that we provide to individuals. When working with organizations, we first focus on understanding the true baseline using leading and lagging indicators. We also examine the effectiveness of current initiatives and what some of the unintended consequences may be. From there, we determine an action plan and measures for how to reach the group’s goals. We don’t just look at the numbers and percentages, but rather take a more holistic approach. 

So why a podcast? We wanted to make some of our resources and content easily and readily accessible, particularly for those individuals who can benefit immediately. Perhaps it’s difficult to attend a workshop in person, or perhaps someone’s not not ready to ask for help or scheduling a coaching session. Podcasts can remove some of those barriers to access. It also gives businesses an opportunity to sample our offerings and see whether our ethos is a good fit for their company.

Podcast episodes will focus on two different areas. We will look at strategic topics and systemic issues around gender diversity in the workplace, including how we can affect change and how organizations can create diverse and inclusive environments. We will also have podcasts focused on more tactical subjects for professional women. Topics will range from  travel tips to taxes, pet adoption to car buying. We will look at what works for working women.

We want to thank you for joining us for episode one of season one of Two Pier’s podcast. Be sure  to follow us on social media. You can find us at LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, or on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. We’ll be putting on a workshop this Friday at the annual Women in Leadership Conference at Rice University, here in Houston, TX. The interactive workshop is  focused on navigating challenging interactions and confrontation. It’s one of our favorite topics! Tune in next Wednesday (Feb 19) for a recap with insights from the event.

We’d love to hear  from you. Reach out to hear more about our offerings or provide suggestions on  requested content you want to hear about. Have a great week! We’ll meet you back here soon.