In this episode, we’re joined by Yael Iffergan, Managing Director at INFINITalent Partners.
Yael shares her insights, as a strategic recruiting leader, into the current job market. She discusses the benefits of exploring your options and the ins and outs of navigating resumes, interviews, negotiations, and offers. Yael tells it straight as she pulls back the curtain on what happens behind the scenes and how you can position yourself for success.
Whether you’re ready for a new opportunity, you’re facing unexpected employment changes, or you’re simply curious about what’s out there, this episode will have some pearls of wisdom.
Links from the episode: Top 3 Most Important Elements Your Resume MUST Include to Get Noticed
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:10
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And this is season four. So, today we have another guest joining us Yael Iffergan. She's the owner and founder of InfiniTalent Partners LLC, which is a full service recruitment and career coaching firm. So she's here to talk to us today about job hunting and just exploring your options, especially in terms of the current job market. So Yael has been in the recruiting field for almost 20 years and has helped leaders at really all levels of organizations, both, you know, large, publicly traded Fortune 500 companies, as well as smaller private organizations in making hiring decisions as a trusted partner and an advocate. So we look forward to hearing her insights today and what she has to share with us about the job market.
Through development of rich relationships, Yael has counseled professionals through the various stages of career growth and job movement, and currently has a portfolio of professionals for whom she's managed careers for more than 10 years. Yael knows what companies are looking for. She understands the leadership thought process and inner workings of corporate America, and can guide professionals at all levels of their career to successful change. You can expect her to speak very frankly about your strengths and challenges and to help you position yourself in the most positive light. She has a reputation for setting realistic expectations and providing thoughtful counsel. She also holds a bachelor's degree from UT Austin. So fellow Longhorn, and is a Certified Senior Professional in Human Resources. So another, you know, certified HR professional. So welcome to the podcast, Yael. Great to have you.
Yael Iffergan 2:07
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 2:09
Yeah, we're excited too because I think a lot of times, we're sort of talking to organizations and what they can do to support individuals. And I think that we, we offer support for individuals in terms of how to thrive in certain, you know, career paths or in certain roles. But I love this topic, because it sort of opens, opens things up for, "what if you don't want to stay?" which is a conversation we have with a lot of our clients in the coaching process. So yeah, this is important.
Yael Iffergan 2:47
Absolutely leveling the playing field, right. Like we have some control over our destinies as well.
Erica D'Eramo 2:53
Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your sort of origin story. Like how did you come to this work?
Yael Iffergan 3:02
Sure. So I always laugh and say, "I fell into it, and I can't get back up." And that's true. I didn't pick recruiting and career coaching as a career, it kind of picked me for a number of reasons. And as I started to become more involved in it, I really enjoyed it, decided to make it a career. I spent the first seven years of my career working for a big third party international recruiting firm. And then I went in house and I worked for, goodness, I think five companies after that. And in my last few roles, I found myself in less than stellar situations, if you will. Erica..
Erica D'Eramo 3:59
Love a good euphemism.
Yael Iffergan 4:00
That's right. Between you, me and the fence post, sometimes you have to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if maybe you're the common denominator. And I think in my case, I was I wasn't cut out for corporate America. And what I really love is recruiting and helping people and helping people navigate job searches. And so today, my firm InfiniTalent Partners, we primarily do recruiting; helping companies find talent. But a natural offshoot is the career coaching, helping people to navigate that and show them the inner workings, if you will, it's not secretive. I'm gonna, I'm gonna reveal the secret sauce today so that everybody knows exactly what companies are thinking and how they operate. So that they can utilize that to their advantage. So here I am four years owning my own business and loving every minute of it.
Erica D'Eramo 5:06
Yeah. Escaping from the corporate paradigm that...
Yael Iffergan 5:12
That's right.
Erica D'Eramo 5:12
I agree. But I think it's it's an interesting framing about like being the common denominator. And I think that we are sold this bill of goods from the get go that like we're going to hire on with the company, we're going to do our college degrees, hire on with the company. And then, now it's changing a little where you might bounce around. But really this idea that success looks like one thing, and it means somebody else pays you money and tells, and takes you into their family and sets all the rules and sets the ladder. And that's the only way it can be. And I think we're seeing more and more that that's not how it has to be.
Yael Iffergan 5:54
That's right. And for some people it works and kudos to them. And I will tell them exactly how it works so that they can figure it out. And for others, it's not the solution, and you just have to find the right fit and be willing to do the work.
Erica D'Eramo 6:11
Yeah. So what's your current kind of? What's your synopsis on your current read of what's going on in in the market, the job market, kind of the broader space?
Yael Iffergan 6:24
Yeah, so the job market still really, really strong. You know, we keep hearing about this looming recession. However, unemployment is a leading indicator of recession, and unemployment is not leading us in that direction. I just pulled up the US unemployment rate this morning. And it's as of May 2023, it's at 3.7%, which is unbelievably low. The last time I looked at this, it was at 3.5%, which is the lowest unemployment rate in recorded history. So, far fewer people looking for work now than ever before. And that means that it is a seller's market, it is a candidate's market, it is an opportunity for candidates to really get out there and, and have options. So yes, super strong, really, really strong.
Erica D'Eramo 7:30
Yeah, super strong. And it also kind of introduces other questions, then, because when the market's really tight, and everybody's scrambling for a job, you sort of, it feels more like, take the take the first thing that you get or just take something that meets your immediate needs. And and so I'm curious, you know, what would, what would the implications be for a quote seller's market then?
Yael Iffergan 7:56
So I think it means that candidates have a lot of options. It means that if there are things going on in your life, where the the job that you have isn't necessarily meeting your goals, now is the time to really explore some other opportunities and to get out there, see what your value is in the marketplace, and be able to test things out. Although with that, I will say it's a double edged sword. So you know, right now, with all of the roles that I'm working, it is highly unusual for a candidate to only have one offer once they get to that stage. So we have a lot of companies really having to pony up some serious money in order to get the talent that they want. And while that sounds fine and good. It is a double edged sword. Because you know, when companies are desperate, they'll pay what they have to pay. But if they end up overpaying, you're gonna find yourself in a serious situation. So, you know, there's a fine line between finding what you're worth and being greedy, knowing that there are long term implications. So you know, you could find yourself priced out of a situation. And you know, a lot of what I hear is, "Well, I'm willing to take less now that the market has turned," you might take less today, but no one will believe you. And so it poses some real problems in the future. Right. So when you're underpaid? Historically, it poses some problems. Well, when you're overpaid, it also poses problems like you really have to be aware of the implications in both directions.
Erica D'Eramo 9:51
So, um, what should people do with that? Like, how would, how would one know if they're overpaid?
Yael Iffergan 10:01
Well, I think people know, right. So when most people embark on a job search, they have an idea of what they want, what makes it worth their time to potentially make a change. You know, in this day and age, you have information at your fingertips, you also have coworkers at your fingertips, it's no longer unacceptable to talk about your salary at work. Honestly, even if it is unacceptable people are doing it. And so you have the ability to know what, what you're worth in the marketplace, right? And so if you're asking for something crazy, you know, if everybody you know, caps out at $100,000 for the job you're looking for, and you think you want $140k, you might get $140k. But is that sustainable, long term? And then what does that do for your marketability in the future? There are implications in both directions.
Erica D'Eramo 11:04
Interesting. So um, when we talk about kind of a seller's market, people should maybe be considering if they haven't considered before, if their current role isn't sort of meeting all their needs. What about if their role is meeting their needs? What if they're kind of like, "Yeah, this is fine."
Yael Iffergan 11:24
Okay, well, let's talk about "if this is fine," versus "I'm super happy," right? So if people are super happy, you know, keep in mind, the grass isn't always greener. People follow leaders, right? People don't leave jobs, they leave leaders, we've heard this, you know, Google that and get 100 articles about it. And it's absolutely true. And so if you're super happy where you are, and you're being treated well and fairly and supported, then appreciate what you have. But if things are fine, and you know, you're not lighting anybody's fire, but you might want to see what opportunities are out there. Now is the time. It's a great time to see you know, if you can get closer to home, if you can get more vacation time, if you can get more work flexibility, you know, if you can get more money, if you can get any number of things. It's a great time to be looking. And you know, I always ask the question, when I'm interviewing, here's my secret sauce, secret sauce. Number one, I always ask candidates, what are you looking for, at this point in your career? What's really important to you? And I would encourage people to ask themselves that question before they embark on a job hunt, so that it really know what their priorities are. Is it a commute? Is it flexibility? Is it tools and resources? Is it growth? Whatever it is, really understand what you want, so that your job search can have purpose, rather than wasting a lot of people's times, knowing that it is a small, small world. And if you go out and burn bridges, that's not good business. So really understanding what you want so that you can be specific about your job search and go after things that meet your needs.
Erica D'Eramo 13:32
Yeah, I think it's, this sounds like such an obvious and easy question, like, "What do you want?" but my experience working with clients has been that it's not always that straightforward. And it takes some real thought and introspection. And oftentimes, the first answer is like, the, it's the surface level thing that doesn't actually tell you what the underlying need is or the underlying desire is. So for example, if you say you want more money, Okay, what does that give? Do you want more financial stability? What does it give you? Like you want to be able to retire earlier, you want to be able to pay for your kids' college? You want in financial independence? Like what is it that it actually gives you? Because sometimes when we say this one thing, like I want more vacation, or I want, actually the thing that we really want underneath that can be met different ways. And so when you're having these conversations that you're talking about, like being crystal clear on what are the underlying drivers for why you've chosen that one metric as the thing you want, because there might be other ways to meet that, right?
Yael Iffergan 14:47
100% And you know, you raise a really good point. Careers are not often linear and neither is job hunting, right? And you have to make a lot of mistakes. days to figure out what's important to you. And so, you know, I, when when people come to me and say, "You know, God, I don't really know," which I have to tell you, I don't get "I don't know" very often. But I would always ask, "so what do you love? or what have you loved about your favorite job, and what have you hated about your least favorite job?" Right? Just for, to inventory those things. So that all those things come together, right? In a cohesive mindset. Again, knowing that there is no such thing as perfection, when you get paid a lot of money, you get paid that because your stress level's higher, right? So nothing comes without a price tag. And so it's important to inventory those things. But keeping your eye on something that is realistic is important. And look, that might mean that you need a partner, right? You might need to find yourself a good recruiter that you can bounce these ideas off of, or a good career coach, or a mentor, or a colleague, or any of these things, right, just to be able to talk people through, you know, what, what does it look like for you? "You know, I was recently posed this question about what's important to me. And I think I know what's important to me, but tell me what's important to you?" Or what have other people said? Right? In my career, or whatever. You know, it's an exploration in order to get you to a job that makes you happy, right? Knowing perfection is not realistic.
Erica D'Eramo 16:51
Yeah. Yeah, a lot of the common ones that I hear are like, definitely the I want more money. But the other one is, like, I want the promotion, or I want the, the, the growth path. And those are such great areas to explore about, like, do you want the money because it feels unfair right now? Because like, people coming into the company or making more than you, or it feels like it's a fairness issue? Or is this an enabler for something else? And similarly, with the title, like what is the title giving you? Is it giving you more autonomy, more impact, more extrinsic recognition? affirmation? Like, what? What is it giving you? what and so...
Yael Iffergan 17:34
100 percent! I could not agree with you more. That's exactly right. Some of those things can be solved with therapy, and some of those things can be solved with a new job. So you are exactly right. You know, you've got to figure out who you are and what that means. And also, you know, knowing that you're, you're gonna slip and fall a couple of times, like, you're gonna make, "God I thought I wanted to be promoted, turns out I don't. Turns out I hate leading people." Right? Whatever the situation is, and you raise a good point about, you know, do you want more money because it feels unfair? Well, now you've just talked about a culture situation, right?
Erica D'Eramo 18:18
Right.
Yael Iffergan 18:18
If the culture feels unfair, inequitable, nepotistic, whatever, then that's a whole nother issue. That's not a money issue.
Erica D'Eramo 18:30
Right. And the dollar amount that people would be satisfied with changes drastically based on what they understand other people are making, right? And, and that's okay. But it just, it's an indicator that actually, it's not that you did your budget and to achieve your goals, it means this amount per year. It's that, you know, if I told you, you get that amount, but I told you that the guy next to you is making 50% more than that for doing the same job, you're not going to be happy with that number anymore. It doesn't matter that you can retire early, unless you have very healthy emotional boundaries around your work and you don't care. But still,
Yael Iffergan 19:06
Who does though?
Erica D'Eramo 19:07
Who does? No.
Yael Iffergan 19:09
Comparison is the thief of all joy.
Erica D'Eramo 19:13
Um, yeah, it's that is true. That is true. And I think that's another interesting thing to think about when you're looking. You know, you said the grass is not always greener. We don't always know the full story when we see that one number you know, this other company is going to pay me more money. But it turns out that they have a super high turnover rate or they have you know, they can't keep anybody or who knows, their benefits package is not good. You know, like it has to be a holistic
Yael Iffergan 19:45
Absolutely
Erica D'Eramo 19:45
Holistic thing. Yeah,
Yael Iffergan 19:46
Prioritized.
Erica D'Eramo 19:48
So what do you think the best way is then for people to approach this? Say they're gonna go out on the job market to make themselves appealing, marketable, competitive.
Yael Iffergan 20:02
Okay, so first of all, like we talked right inventorying your priorities so that you have some focus and direction. Next, you really need to have a good resume, right? And I know that that is a real fluid word, "good." That is, recognizing the purpose of a resume is to get you an interview, it is not to get you a job. And so it's important to keep in mind a few very key things to keep in mind. So I actually wrote a blog on this, it's on my website, it's also on my LinkedIn profile, about the three most important things that our resume needs to have in order to be effective. Those three things are scope, context, and commonality. Right, those are, that's how a resume is reviewed. So I'll give you an example. Right? This is my favorite example, because it's the most obscure. So Project Manager is a job title that is thrown out like it's nothing. I mean, it is such a wide title that encompasses such a huge breadth of things, and is vastly different from company to company, project to project. So for example, you know, somebody who has project managed the construction of a billion dollar refinery is going to have a much different skill set than someone who has project managed the construction of a 1500 square foot home, two completely different skill sets, same title. So what's missing on a resume when people list project manager, what's missing is scope and context. Right? So it's really important to say, you know, things like "project managed the construction of a greenfield $2 billion refinery located in Baytown, Texas," right, or whatever the case may be, so that people now know what you're talking about. And they can use a frame of reference as they're going through the job description. So sometimes when I'm writing resumes, I might include a synopsis of the company and or the project so that people understand is this a global company? Is this a local company? Is this a Fortune 500 company? Is this a mom and pop shop? Again, so that they can capture scope and context. Because the way their recruiters look at resumes, keeping in mind that we get 500 resumes for every job that's posted, so if I look at a resume, and I can't figure it out, I can't figure out if you're building a house or a refinery, you're a "No." There is no maybe pile. People always are like, "Oh, won't I go into the maybe, you come back to me?" No, I won't. I have 500 other resumes. I don't even remember that I looked at your resume. Right? There are statistics that say, people look at your resume for anywhere from six to ten seconds before they make a decision. And what we're looking at is to try to understand the story. So if that's not clear, unfortunately, that's a no. Also, when I write resumes, I also start, I always start out with a profile section. And that tells the reader who I am. As a professional and as a human being. It also identifies job titles that I'm interested in, right? So I'm like, "Okay, I'm a seasoned human resource business partner, with 20 years of experience supporting, you know, senior level leaders in Fortune 500 companies." Boom, got it, right, followed next by highlights of expertise. And that's your bulleted list of keywords. So that when your resume gets put into an applicant tracking system, with an algorithm that you get picked out of the crowd, right. And so those are two to three words could be something like financial reporting, systems, implementations, team, mentorship and leading, etc, etc. So and then from there, you can dig into the resume, no more than two pages, believe it or not, we receive six and eight and ten page resumes. We're not even getting to page two, because we can see the preview that there's eight more pages, which by the way, tells us something about your communication skills, right? There's so many messages that get sent out by resume So once you have a really good resume put together, your LinkedIn profile should mirror your resume if it has all of those super important components, and that's so that recruiters like me can find you. So I will go through LinkedIn trying to search for people that fit my clients, knowing that our clients often have very obscure requirements. So I'm like, "What are the chances that I can find somebody that has this, you know, very obscure, accounting standard experience?" Right? Or this engineering standard. So we try to go through it, that's where we start before we open up our search. So if you come up and you hit the nail on the head, that is a win. You're getting contacted. So keeping in mind that you know, there is a visible job market and there is an invisible job market. There is the market that never get to, where roles never get posted. And you have to find that through a recruiter or your personal network or other hidden forums. So once all of those things are put together, you're ready to go.
Erica D'Eramo 26:20
So the resume length thing is interesting. I, we're specifically referring to resumes. And that's what they're called in the US. Outside of the US, some people call them CVs - curriculum vitaes. And depending on the country, depending on the industry, like some of them have different norms, especially when it comes to a CV around the length and whatnot. But in the US, like two pages is kind of the max.
Yael Iffergan 26:51
There's no reason for there to be much more, right. So for example, some people want to have these long job descriptions for roles that they had 20 years ago. Well why? It's not relevant anymore. Presumably you've built on those skills. Now, some companies, and not some, most companies want to see progression. So let's say for example, today, you have achieved job title of vice president of business development, we want to know where that came from, right? Like, are you calling yourself VP of Business Development, and you have three years of experience? So now I know that two BS title, right. But if you show me that you have 20 years of experience, you started out as an engineer, turns out you had too much personality, went into sales, engineering,
Erica D'Eramo 27:44
Ouch!
Yael Iffergan 27:44
And you grew, whatever, that you show progression, there's a story and it legitimizes what you say. So those earlier jobs just have titles, and names and dates. And that's it like, we just want to see where you came from to legitimize. So you know, this stuff that is the most recent that is the most relevant to the kind of job you're looking for. That's the stuff that gets the most real estate. The rule of thumb is that you give the most real estate to those skills you want to utilize again. And the same goes for the interview, you give the most airtime to the skills you want to utilize again. So for example, if you are trying to take your career to the next level, but you spend the majority of your interview time talking about the administrative support that you provided, in your last couple of jobs, it sends a subconscious message. Right? Like, Oh, this guy's not ready. Like he did all this administrative. That's all we heard, right? Maybe that he's really good at. So keeping that in mind as a rule of thumb is important as you go through it.
Erica D'Eramo 29:05
Yeah. And I think that that's why some of those previous roles, the lens that we look at them through changes over time. So it might be that when you're an analyst, like and you're trying to get another analyst type job, you'll go into the details about the
Yael Iffergan 29:20
That's right.
Erica D'Eramo 29:21
Yeah, the technical stuff. But that doesn't mean that you didn't do elements of that job that would support like, there weren't elements of that job, but that would support a leadership role. It's just gonna be through a different lens and a different description.
Yael Iffergan 29:35
That's right. That's right. You don't you just won't focus there, right. There is also a level of assumption, right? Like we know you did not come out of the womb with leadership skills, like, we got it. But we know that those were developed over time you got your first, got to train your junior team member, then you were the lead, whatever right progressing. It's important to show those things, knowing that a lot of those things will be assumed.
Erica D'Eramo 30:07
Yeah. So um, I often get the question too, like, at what point is two pages okay, to go from one page to two page? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Yael Iffergan 30:17
Generally five years. Like your first five year, you don't have enough to fill two pages, I say that with the most respect. You know, keeping in mind that every single bullet has to have substance at it focusing on the first two bullets, after the first two bullets, you're going to have to really be intriguing for them to read following bullets. So kind of five years, after five years, you can go to two pages, and 10 years, you absolutely have to go to two pages. If you don't have enough to fill at least a page and a half after 10 years of experience, that also sends a message. So you know, it's a balance.
Erica D'Eramo 31:02
Yeah. So um, I think that there are, a lot of people get concerned about the narrative, the trajectory, if they've had like, gaps, or if they can't explain a transition, because maybe it ended on bad terms. And I think a lot of people deeply fear that they will never get another job again. Right, that that's it, like, they got their one chance and and now this is the story that will trail them for the rest of their life. What are your thoughts?
Yael Iffergan 31:38
I love you for asking this question. Because I'll tell you, everyone has had a hiccup everyone has, not everyone has loved every job that they've had, not everyone has gotten along with their boss, you know, if it's something that is unavoidable for you to disclose, for example, if you got terminated from a job, not the end of the world, the key is to make sure that you understand your participation in the termination, and that you learn something, I'll tell you I have had so many leaders say to me over the years, like, I'm so glad that they were open and honest about what happened and that they learned something, that's the most important thing. You know, nobody wants to hire a victim. So you really have to understand your role in what happened. Everybody was young and dumb, at some point, right? Like everybody has been through ups and downs in their lives, that have carried over into their professional life, it's important that you understand that you're open and honest, without going into an exorbitant amount of detail. So you know, I often get asked the question like, oh, what's the best way to answer such and such question? And my answer is always the same. It is the best version of the truth. Right? So let's say hypothetically, they ask, why did you leave this role? You know, what, I never managed to get my relationship with my supervisor off the ground. And We butted heads more than I am happy to admit. And it ultimately led to my demise. What and, and I was terminated. But what I learned was that I need to seek first to understand where they are, where they're coming from, what their priorities are, and make sure that we're in alignment before I hit the ground running, right. So whatever your lesson is, it's really important that you articulate that early. And that's it right. And sometimes you'll get interviewers who want more details, right? So oh my god, tell me what happened. Like, what were they just a jerk or whatever, resist the temptation to go into too much detail, always keeping it professional and just saying, "You know what, like, it really isn't important. At the end of the day, it wasn't a great situation for me, I own my role. I learned a valuable lesson and now I'm ready to do better."
Erica D'Eramo 34:36
So if somebody were to work with you in the other capacity, not as a, you know, Career Coach, but as a recruiter, what would that look like? So how should people handle working with recruiters?
Yael Iffergan 34:54
Another great question. So you know, the kinds of clients that I pursue at this point in my career, are companies that really need me, right, that really struggled to hire great talent, don't know how to navigate, that maybe are not good at it, you know, have determined that they've made some really bad hires, for reasons that eludes them. That is a great opportunity to partner with a recruiter. And I'll tell you, transparency is key, right? Like, you can tell me your job is amazing. I'm positive that it is, but it's not perfect. So tell me, tell me what's awesome about this job, or this company or this team. But also tell me what's not perfect, right, so that we can do a really good job setting expectations. Hiring managers, you know, if you really think about it, the purpose of an interview is to kind of uncover the good, the bad and the ugly, right. Like, everybody knows that question. "So what are your challenges?" Right, like they're trying to uncover what you're not good at? The same goes for companies and candidates want to note that, you know, they want to know what, what is what are they getting themselves into, potentially, so that they can make informed decisions. So, you know, I tell candidates, the exact same thing, it's all about being transparent. So even when we get to salary negotiations, which I'm certain will, I'm certain we'll talk about here shortly, but you know, really important to be transparent.
Erica D'Eramo 36:47
Yeah, without oversharing. So when companies work with you, those are your clients, right. And I think it's good to clarify that. So the client is the company and the potential hire, you or, you might be reaching out to them on behalf of your client, the company. So if somebody is if somebody is approached by a recruiter, or in the process of applying finds themselves talking to a recruiter what, what are your words of wisdom for that?
Yael Iffergan 37:20
Transparency and honesty, right? Like really be honest with your recruiter, it's not the same as working directly with a company, right? When you're working directly with the company, they have a very specific lens for a very specific role. And they are not forgiving in that realm. Not because they're not nice people. But because they're they're being very specific. Recruiters have a much more, a much broader view of the marketplace, and potential opportunities for you. So I might have reached out to you about x position. But I might have 10 more in my back pocket in case this one is not the right fit for you. So being very open and honest about your priorities, your expectations, all those kinds of things, right. So sometimes the salary conversation comes up. And there are so many videos out there and so many people who tried to guide people on salary negotiations. And the overwhelming advice is elusiveness, which I disagree with wholeheartedly. But let's start like, I know what the market is for this role. I also know exactly what my client's limitations are. So if you are open and honest with me about where you are and what you're looking for, I can guide you, you know? So many times, I've come across candidates who are like, "Well, I'm at x," and I'm like, "oh, no, you're not! Like you are severely underpaid. Like, today's the day we're going to move this ball forward." Right? I have never heard somebody underpaid and thought to myself, "Yippee! You know, like, I find them another opportunity to be underpaid." Like that doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form. So being really honest with recruiters, again, about your priorities, your expectations. And this is actually a really good segue because people ask me like, "Oh, I'm so scared of that question on applications that says what are your salary expectations?"
Erica D'Eramo 39:43
Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 39:43
I don't want to shoot too high. And I don't want to undersell myself because you know, I'm putting this in writing and they're gonna have this and to that I say, put your ideal salary in that box, your ideal realistic salary, in that box, because if you are just outside of it, then the company is still going to call you and say, "Listen, we're really interested in you. You indicated you want 150, our budget for this role is 140, would you still consider it?" Right?
Erica D'Eramo 40:17
Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 40:18
At least then you're getting the very top end of their range. And if not, then you're getting the ideal situation. If they want to pay 110, and you've indicated 150, you're not a match. Why would make $40,000 less than your ideal situation? Right? So keeping in mind that your range isn't going to be up or down 50%? Right, it's going to be up and down 5%-10%. So, you know, it's important, like I said, just to be honest about what that looks like, and realistic. It's also okay, when you're working with a recruiter to say, "I'm honestly not sure what I should be asking for. Can you give me some guidance on that realm?" Right?
Erica D'Eramo 41:11
Right.
Yael Iffergan 41:11
And I can tell you like, well, this is my client's budget for this role. And their budget is really in line for this. So, or my client's budget is this, it's a little bit low. But here are the perks, right? Everything has a value. And so you know, being privy to that is important,
Erica D'Eramo 41:31
Right, because you're sort of like a third, a third party, not neutral, but you your goal is to match up a successful pairing where both parties feel like they are coming out of this in a good match. Right? It's not to like, that's not a good pairing. If somebody goes into it feeling like they got screwed.
Yael Iffergan 41:51
Yes.
Erica D'Eramo 41:51
They won't last very long.
Yael Iffergan 41:53
No. And I'll tell you, any good recruiter will avoid that like the plague. And I'll tell you a huge part of the reason I started my own business because I was really frustrated with unethical business practices. And I said to myself, "I can do better." And honestly, I've built an entire reputation on operating with integrity, walking away from deals, when I know that they are not going to work for whatever reason.
Erica D'Eramo 42:25
Yeah. Yeah, I think it offers that perspective, like you mentioned, of the broader market and the history of what has worked and not worked in the past that you kind of bring that to the table. That's why people hire recruiters instead of just posting it themselves.
Yael Iffergan 42:43
That's right.
Erica D'Eramo 42:46
The piece around the the one like number field that has to be filled in with a number like with digits, I do think is so challenging, because oftentimes, it's in a vacuum from what the entire packag is. So you don't at that point, know, like, what are all the benefits? What is the? What is the, if you're just applying on like a form online, you can't ask like what, you know, what does the bonus structure look like? What is the vacation policy look like? What do the health benefits look like? And so much of that might actually impact your number, pretty substantially for what your base salary would be. Whereas if you're working with a recruiter, you can be asking those questions.
Yael Iffergan 43:33
Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you, though, everybody knows that there are other factors, right. So we'll go back to the 150k. Right, let's say you write 150k. But the company knows that their benefits are amazing, right? So they might get away with paying you 140. But at least they know they're in the ballpark. Right? And that's what companies are looking for is like, are we even in the ballpark? Because before you get to offer stage, the company will either volunteer or you should be asking, like sure, like, "Tell me tell me what your benefits look like." Right? So you know, if you're going to be paying out the nose for health insurance, then I know I said 150. But that was before I knew that I would be paying two grand a month to insure my family. So I'm a No. Right? Now we're renegotiating, but we're always in the ballpark. Right?
Erica D'Eramo 44:38
Yeah. Yeah. So we don't need to be scared of that field. So yeah, moral of the story. So in terms of salary negotiations, let's explore that a little bit more. So what are your what are some of your insights or tips regarding salary negotiations?
Yael Iffergan 45:00
So have an idea of realistically what you want. And be prepared to throw out that number and then stop talking. So what inevitably happens, especially for women, and I actually make women practice this both with me and with their spouses, or whoever's at the house, right? So you practice the question like, "Oh, tell me what your salary expectations are." And you would say, "Well, I'm looking for a base salary of $150,000, plus bonus, all contingent upon what your benefits look like." You stop talking, because what inevitably happens is, you're gonna look at them, they're gonna look at you, maybe with a neutral expression, maybe with a frown, maybe with a smile, and you're gonna read into all of those expressions, no matter what direction they go in. And then you're gonna keep talking, and you're gonna say, "But I'm really negotiable, depending on what the role looks like. And I mean, vacation is really my priority. And so if I'm..." I mean, you've literally just negotiated your data yourself down for no good reason.
Erica D'Eramo 46:19
Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 46:20
Put it out there. Let them give you pushback, right. So if 150k is way outside of their budget, now they're going to disclose their budget, right? They're going to say, "Oh, my gosh, we think you're wonderful. And you're right and realm, but the maximum that we can pay for this role is 145." And you can say, "I wouldn't walk away from 145. Again, depending on what the entire package looks like," right? But let them disclose, if you're out of whack. If you're right in line, they're gonna say, great.
Erica D'Eramo 46:57
This is another reason to be really clear about what's important to you, too, because if having a bunch of vacation is really important to you, and they actually can give you tack on an extra two weeks, you know, they can't budge on the number, but they can give you some extra vacation or they can give you like, flex Fridays, or whatever it is those things. If you have it written down, where you can you clearly understand what your priorities aren't what's most important, then you can kind of rate those and trade off and understand what would be doable for you, you know, like, how much would you be willing to take? How much money would you be willing to take off the total salary for six weeks of vacation? Right?
Yael Iffergan 47:42
But you wouldn't disclose that until there were actual numbers on the table? Right?
Erica D'Eramo 47:47
Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 47:48
So you don't want to tell them your priorities ahead of time, like for all they know, you know, money is your number one priority, and they already give four weeks of vacation. So let's not tell them right, until until you're forced to negotiate on those things. You keep that to yourself, until you get to the negotiation table until they've actually thrown in numbers that you are being forced to work with.
Erica D'Eramo 48:17
Right. I agree with that. So how does all this work? Like behind the scenes? Is there what's going on behind the curtain?
Yael Iffergan 48:27
Okay, so companies generally will have a budget in mind, right? So bigger companies have, they call it a number of different things, but generally speaking, they're called ladders and levels, right? So it might be we have seven levels of engineers. And you know, each level varies by you know, $15,000 that overlaps. This role has been designated an engineer five, and pays between 120 and 137. Right, hypothetically. So when a candidate comes in, and they are asking for money outside of that. And it's a candidate they really want companies have a couple of different options. They can figure out how to upgrade the role to meet your salary expectations, or they can negotiate a bunch of different things. Many companies, especially in states where disclosure of past salary history is still legal. They'll take that information as a basis, which sometimes is fair and sometimes is not fair. Right? Let's say hypothetically, you are making 70 and you know, you're worth 90 and the company asks you "Oh, well, what are you at now?" "I'm at 70" and then they try to offer you 75 And you're like, "Suck it! My value is 90." Right? So they can take all of their internal numbers and come back to you with that. And it's okay for you to still say, "No, I recognize that you think 8% is a reasonable raise to justify making a move. Unfortunately, it doesn't motivate me." So it's okay. You know, there's always this, there's a lot of talk lately about historically underpaid candidates continuing to be historically underpaid. And it is, because of that math that happens within organizations. They look at what you're currently making. And that's how they make that basis. One of the companies I worked for in the past who shall remain nameless, they wouldn't make an offer, unless they knew what you were currently making, which wasn't fair, right. And so compensation departments tried to rule the roost, but ultimately, you know, people vote with their feet. So if you're not making a move, then the company is going to have to figure something out, right, in order to get the talent that they want. So, you know, it's important to understand what your market value is, so that you can ask for it and be adamant about it, again, especially in this market, it might be different if the economy changes, and we do end up in this recession that everybody's talking about, and people have fewer options. But today, people have a lot of options and a lot of opportunities to increase their salaries. So, you know, a lot of things go on, on the inside. But, you know, again, when when a candidate asks for more than is allotted for a position, they're going to disclose that in an attempt to see if they can make you fit into there right. "Well, the most we can pay for this role is 148. And you've asked for 150," and you're like, "Oh, my God, that'd be amazing," right? So you can say like, "Yeah, I would consider, I wouldn't close the door for $2,000."
Erica D'Eramo 52:25
Yeah. And for people who, I think this this piece around, recognizing that you're you're underpaid, often happens if someone has stayed in a company for a really long time and just been like, kind of, you know, not how to bosses advocated when it comes time for pay raises, or has sort of fallen under the radar or performed well, but not gotten those, like compression raises and has just sort of fallen behind. People who are loyal to companies for a really long time sometimes find themselves in that situation. It's instead of people who are jumping around and constantly like getting a feel for what their market rate is. So it's interesting, but that loyalty, I think, sometimes can show up in a depressed salary rate.
Yael Iffergan 53:22
Yes, for sure. But but with that, I'll say it isn't the rule. So you know, especially, well, maybe not especially but larger companies have more structure around that. So, when you get promoted to the next ladder and level, you've got to move up to that next pay grade. So that usually is pretty firm, and so forth. But then you're starting at the bottom of that pay grade and trying to move your way up inside of that pay grade, rather than starting at the top like somebody from the outside. But
Erica D'Eramo 54:01
Yeah, yeah, true. I think also, some of those larger companies will just proactively give compression raises to make sure that they don't start losing people, but that
Yael Iffergan 54:12
The very best companies sure do.
Erica D'Eramo 54:15
The very best. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, is that typical? Or is that pretty? No?
Yael Iffergan 54:20
It just depends, right? And it could be different within an organization right? Could be very generous and supply chain might not be, right? So
Erica D'Eramo 54:33
True. It is. So um, Okay, so let's say you are like on that "Meh, not feeling this job." You go out on the market, you find something better. And they're offering you more money. But like you might be willing to stay where you're at. What are your thoughts on kind of counter offers, if you come back to your company, you say, "Okay, I'm leaving, this company is gonna pay me more money," in the company and your current companies like, "Well what would it take to make you stay?"
Yael Iffergan 55:10
Okay, I have some really strong opinions on counter offers. So if you Google counter offers, you'll see a number of varied opinions about how successful counter offers can be. And to that all say, in my experience, very few employees last longer than 12 months after accepting a counteroffer. So some do, sometimes it works. But oftentimes, it doesn't. And you know, I'll tell you, if somebody comes to me and says, you know, I want a new job, I think I'm really underpaid. And I sit and I'll say, like, well, how's everything else going? Well, I really liked my boss really liked my job, the company's really good, I just feel like I'm underpaid. I would rather coach them on how to ask for more money in their current roles than risk them getting into a counteroffer situation. Because once you have threatened a company, by leaving or threatening to leave, you're not making any warm and fuzzies. And oftentimes, people because companies are made up of people, they are not inanimate objects, will feel a level of resentment, like why didn't you give me an opportunity to try to figure that out, right? Now, on the flip side, if you have given them the opportunity, if you have told them in an appropriate way that you feel like you are due or raise or you're not being paid fairly, and they have refused you, then there's really no reason to take a counteroffer.
Erica D'Eramo 56:58
Right.
Yael Iffergan 56:59
Now, if you have attempted to get more money multiple times, and they have refused you, and now that you're threatening to leave, they want to pony up, I'm a hard pass on that, like they have told you everything you need to know about who they are, and what's important to them. And I would encourage you to listen. So I would rather you negotiate prior to that in the most tactful compassionate way. There are ways to have that conversation professionally, kindly, without threatening anybody. And the right company will be responsive to that if you are important to them. If you're not important to them, they have told you everything you need to know.
Erica D'Eramo 57:49
Yeah, I think the trust is kind of broken at that point. Like, yeah, there's no undoing. That's a one way.
Yael Iffergan 57:59
That's right.
Erica D'Eramo 57:59
That's a check valve. That's one way check valve.
Yael Iffergan 58:02
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Erica D'Eramo 58:04
Yeah, that's tough. When people are looking, you know, considering whether they would be marketable or not. One thing that I think, you know, we hear a lot about it in the news, and I hear a lot about it from my clients, is this idea that "I'm not qualified, I'm not, I'm not going to be good enough to go anywhere." And society will tell us that that's like imposter syndrome. I have really complicated feelings about that term impostor syndrome. I think that people have received those messages, and adapted to be able to like, stay safe where they are. And so I understand why people might feel like they shouldn't put themselves out there and apply for stuff. And yet, I do think that there is some... something to explore there around gender differences in what people, what roles people will apply for, and there is some, you know, something worth talking about there. So when I hear female clients particularly say, "Oh, I saw this role, it looks really good. But I'm not going to apply because I don't think I'm qualified." I I just I hear it so much. I hear it so much. And I you know, tackle it through coaching in a certain way. But I'm really curious about your thoughts on that.
Yael Iffergan 59:29
Yes, I'm completely with you. I tell candidates to apply to everything that they are even remotely qualified for.
Erica D'Eramo 59:38
Yes, thank you.
Yael Iffergan 59:40
Because you never so first of all, job descriptions are wish lists. They are not hard and fast lines in the sand. You wouldn't be shocked at the way that companies negotiate or what's the word I'm looking for? I'm compromise on their qualifications list when they find the right candidate. So first of all
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:07
There are scare quour quotes here, by the way, for listeners.
Yael Iffergan 1:00:13
So, you know, nobody rewrites the job description, when they are changing the qualifications. You never know what their priorities are. I'll also tell you a great attitude and good work ethic will supersede 90% of all qualifications. You know, you find these amazing candidates with their heads on right, and their priorities, and they're hidden gems that maybe look ugly on paper. And they will rock it. And especially if you find a good recruiter who will advocate for you, the world is your oyster. So I'll tell you, you just never know what their priorities are, as they're looking at people. So always apply to anything that you are even remotely qualified for. Because you just never know. You never know.
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:11
Yeah, 100%. I mean, it could even be that like, you went to the same school as the director, which may happen sometimes. And they just really take a liking to you, you know? It could be, you have no idea what you might connect on, that is behind the scenes. But I also feel like, if you can detach from the answer, and not internalize some greater meaning to a no, or to, you know, not getting a role, then it's just practice at that point. Like it's interview practice. If you get an interview, great. It's practice. If you're applying to jobs that you think you should be getting responses on, and you're not getting any responses, that's some data to look at. Like, what, what needs to change on the resume? Are you actually operating in an area that you're competitive in? Is it more competitive than you realize? Right, but it's just information and data that we'll have no access to? If we don't? Try?
Yael Iffergan 1:02:18
That's right. And I tell you, you raise a really good point and something that I talk to people about all the time, when I talk about, you know, what's the right answer to this, I really want to get this job. And I always say it's the best version of the truth. It's not what you think they want to hear. And the reason for that is, you always want to be honest about what you bring to the table. And if they choose that you are they decide that they're you are not the right fit for them, they have done you a favor. Right? If they are looking at...
Erica D'Eramo 1:02:52
If it doesn't feel like a favor at the time, it is a favor.
Yael Iffergan 1:02:56
Right. Because the last thing you need is to sell a company a bill of goods, tell them you are something you are not just to get a job and then get fired. That's not the solution, right? Or to be miserable. Because you told them you were one thing and you aren't. So you know, you take all those things, just like you said, go on every interview, talk to anybody that will talk to you because it's good practice. Plus, you never know what's going to happen. Literally 48 hours, or I guess it was Friday, 72 hours ago, we got an offer for a candidate they upgraded the role two levels because they loved her.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:39
Wow.
Yael Iffergan 1:03:40
So it absolutely happened. Talk to everyone that will talk to you because you never know what opportunity is on the other side of that door.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:48
Yeah, yeah, some of my best roles were roles that I was like, "Meh, I'm just gonna throw this in because who knows? But I have no chance. No chance." And then you just never know, yeah, you never know what what's gonna happen. But again, it's like the price that you pay is some "No's" along the way, right? If your throwing, if you're not getting "No's" you're not throwing your net wide enough. Perhaps. That's that's another thing too, or like not shooting high enough.
Yael Iffergan 1:04:16
That's right, just like a mate. Right? Like in dating and I always say, interviewing is exactly like dating. Super important to be enthusiastic. But you're also gonna kiss some frogs and, onwards and upwards. Right, like a little bit of levity. It's all about the journey and figuring things out.
Erica D'Eramo 1:04:37
Curiosity.
Yael Iffergan 1:04:38
Yep, absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 1:04:40
Yeah, and the piece around, you know, making sure that you're transparent because you want to end up with a true match. Because you don't want to end up getting fired. I don't want anybody to hear that as like you shouldn't apply for stretch rolls. All it is, is that you should just be transparent. And, and give yourself credit for like, coming up to speed. If you've had 17 different roles and you've like come up to speed really quickly. And that's what you're good at. That's valuable, right? There's a story to tell about how adaptable and and what a quick learner you are, and growth mindset and all of that. So
Yael Iffergan 1:05:19
And it's ok also to get a stretch roll, as long as everybody knows, you're a stretch.
Erica D'Eramo 1:05:25
Right!
Yael Iffergan 1:05:25
You get more attention, more development, more forgiveness. But if you go into a role, and you tell them that you are perfectly suited, and then you're not? Like, that doesn't leave anybody with any warm and fuzzies in their belly. Right. So just be honest, and allow everybody to go in with eyes wide open.
Erica D'Eramo 1:05:49
Yeah, one. That's what Yeah, 100%. I think that's a pretty popular question in interviews, too, is like, what do you see the growth areas for you here? Like, where do you think you'll have to grow? And just tell them. Obviously, not like, I need to learn how to talk to people, but it's Okay to own your growth areas and have self awareness about it is better than being like, "Oh, no, there's nowhere for me to grow. I'm like, ready to go?" Or?
Yael Iffergan 1:06:18
That's right. You're not. You're not perfect. And also, by the way, you know, even like you said, "I don't know how to talk to people," if that's your actual growth area, right? Like I struggle communicating with C-level, because I'm a little bit intimidated. There's no shame, right?
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:36
Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 1:06:37
The boss will either say, "Oh, man, that's never going to work. Because the CEO is going to come into your office 18 times a day." Like, you're, that's not the right fit for you. And they've done you a favor. Right or, like, "You know what, I see so much potential in you, I'm going to help you through that by giving you some strategic opportunities." So it could go either way, right. So being honest, about whatever it is, will only make your situation better.
Erica D'Eramo 1:07:09
Yeah. Yeah, like clear headed about it with showing self awareness. So um, what would you say some strategies are for networking, in terms of, you know, finding a new role?
Yael Iffergan 1:07:23
Well, I'll tell you, first and foremost, one of the questions I get asked all the time, or one of the chief complaints is, "Well, I don't really know anybody that can help me find a job. I don't really know anybody."
Erica D'Eramo 1:07:35
They don't get their hair cut? Or they don't...
Yael Iffergan 1:07:37
That's exactly what I say! I'm like, do go to yoga? Do you play tennis? Do a church? You know, do you drink wine with other girls? Then you know, people. And so, it is important. So first and foremost, that you have clarity on what you want, so that as you start to talk to people, you can be clear. The worst possible thing you can do while networking is being ambiguous or vague, right? So if they're like, "What are you looking for" "Oh I'll look for anything."
Erica D'Eramo 1:08:09
Yeah, hmm.
Yael Iffergan 1:08:11
Exactly. That's literally the worst possible thing that you can say, because you're not helping them help you, right? But if you can be specific and say, "You know what, Erica, you might not know this about me. But for the last five years, I've been working as a project manager building billion dollar refineries. So what I really love are large scale, enterprise wide projects and construction." Now you have something to work with, right? And you can say to yourself, "You know what, I don't know anybody, but my husband works for an engineering firm. Let's see where he can start." Right? But you've given people something to work with. So they know what to think about, and what kinds of people to try to figure out that they know, etc. So really important, first and foremost, that you have clarity, and then just be talking to people. Right? And I always say, I actually just posted one of my former bosses did a podcast about networking, and the title of it is "People Don't Forget You On Purpose." And that is true. They just have so much on their minds. And so relationships are important, even when you don't need them. Important to maintain relationships, you know, see how people
Erica D'Eramo 1:09:39
Especially when you don't need them.
Yael Iffergan 1:09:41
Especially when you don't need them? That's right. So that when you do need them, it doesn't feel cheap or cheesy,
Erica D'Eramo 1:09:48
Transactional.
Yael Iffergan 1:09:49
Transactional, people don't want to feel that way. So maintaining those relationships, so that when you need help, they are delighted to help you. So telling people that you're looking, telling people what you're looking for, what kinds of help you need. And, and for those of you who don't need anything, I'll tell you, always nice to have a recruiter in your back pocket that you can send people to. Because that's always a great place to start to, so that people at least can get feedback on their resume or their search or whatever.
Erica D'Eramo 1:10:26
I also think this kind of ties into the, you know, investing in the relationships, even when you don't need them, especially when you don't need them. And like truly investing in them in ways where if you see an opportunity that somebody else might be good for, like making those connections, because you never know, it doesn't need to be transactional, but you never know what fruit will come from that interaction. And if you connect to people who, something comes out of it, whether it's like a job connection or a project, or who knows, like yoga buddies, or whatever it is, that, you know, you'll always be the person that connected them. So that memory stays there. And you come to mind more easily if you're kind of helping to pay it forward.
Yael Iffergan 1:11:19
Yes, totally.
Erica D'Eramo 1:11:23
I think that kind of organic networking is so much more valuable than the I, you know, like the networking happy hours or whatever. I'm not saying that there's not a time and a place for it, there is, but if you're going into a room where everyone is looking for a job, and you can still connect people, certainly, but it does take on a little bit more of that, like transactional pitchy kind of tone to it that I think some people associate with networking. And maybe, you know, maybe not, they're not good at small talk, or they're introverts or whatever. It doesn't have to be like that, though. Like, it's could literally just be talking to your dog, like the person who grooms your dog.
Yael Iffergan 1:12:06
That is absolutely true. Like networking does not have to be happy hour. And those aren't always the most fruitful, right? Because they're filled with a bunch of salespeople, or you know, people looking for jobs. Yeah, you got to find the venue that works for you. And that, for a lot of people is a one on one. And there's, and that's wonderful, right? Like, "Oh, man, Erica, I missed seeing you in yoga this week. Let's get coffee soon." Right? That's called that's networking. Networking does not equal happy hours.
Erica D'Eramo 1:12:39
It's funny you say that, because actually one of my biggest stretch roles that I ever got, where I went from an engineering role to a finance role came because somebody knew me from the yoga class and was like, "Are you maybe looking for a new role? Because I think you'd be a great fit." And there you go, right? Just you never know, you never know. So I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on and sharing this, to level the playing fields a bit. And I think it's particularly supportive of our mission at Two Piers, because I think that there are people who are underrepresented in the workforce are disproportionately impacted by some of these elements that we've discussed today. And so kind of peeling back the curtain and being really clear about, this is how it works. This is what you can expect, like I said, I do think that that really does help to level the playing field, and hopefully get some more representation. Yeah.
Yael Iffergan 1:13:37
Absolutely. No, so much fun to talk about it and to, you know, pull back the curtains. It's not a big mystery. And I want it to be effective for people, right. Like, I'm happy to share everything that I know about this business and how to conduct an effective search and, and all that good stuff. So I appreciate the work that you're doing and getting the word out there just to help people be better professionals and advance themselves.
Erica D'Eramo 1:14:10
Yeah. So I, my next question is going to be around like, how do people reach out to you but this might be a good time to mention that, you know, we said before, that your clients in terms of recruiting are the companies. So I think sometimes people think like, "Oh, I should reach out to a recruiter and they're gonna find me a job," but it's not, it doesn't really work that way. Right? So So
Yael Iffergan 1:14:37
Yeah, we don't find people jobs, we find people for jobs, right. However, with that said, you know, I do do the coaching as well, guiding people through their job search, so I'm happy to talk to anybody that wants to talk. I also am always happy to do a free 30 minute consultation, give you feedback. hack on your resume, talk to you a little bit about where you are in your search, and just help however I can. And so people are welcome to reach out to me anytime.
Erica D'Eramo 1:15:10
Awesome. And we'll include your website and a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes. But how would you prefer people reach out to you?
Yael Iffergan 1:15:21
Email is wonderful. And there's a, on my webpage, if that's where you end up, there's a "Contact Us" page that comes directly to me so they can do that, they can find my email address, LinkedIn. Happy to chat any way that they want to.
Erica D'Eramo 1:15:38
Awesome. Well, again, thank you so much. And for anyone that's listening that thinks that they could use a little support in the career realm or some resume support, I highly recommend Yael. She's been really transformative for a few people that I know who have worked with her. And for anyone looking to understand what is important to them, and how that fits into their values and their work. That's something that Two Piers can help with through coaching. And it's what a lot of our work around coaching kind of really delves deep into. And you can find our resources at our website twopiersconsulting.com or via the podcast here so we can't wait to see you next episode and see you then.