Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we're kicking off our first episode of 2024 with a discussion about mentorship, what makes a good mentor what makes a good mentee relationship what the importance of mentorship is? Because January is mentorship month, it's national mentorship month. So a great time to have this conversation. And joining us today is return guest Melissa Oliviadoti. She is a medical affairs consultant in pharmaceuticals and biotech, and she works with pharma and biotech companies to educate physicians about conditions and new pharmaceuticals and technologies. She's also a mentorship enthusiast. So she's a returning guest from our previous episode about introverts, ambiverts, and extroverts. Melissa happens to be an ambivert. And she's also a proud volunteer and foster home for local animal rescues are so happy to have Melissa back on the podcast to have a discussion with us about mentorship.

Erica D'Eramo 1:22

Hi, Melissa, hi.

Melissa Olivadoti 1:24

So happy to be here. When you mentioned that you were thinking about doing podcasts on mentorship. I was like, yes, let's do it. Because it's it's so near and dear to my heart. It is something that I truly love to both, you know, receiving and give mentorship, and it has made such a difference in my career. I don't know where I'd be without it.

Erica D'Eramo 1:45

Yeah. Yeah, same. I think mentorship has been something that has evolved for me over time and my understanding of it has evolved. And I think it's something that can be so powerful, and yet probably underutilized in many cases or just not fully understood. And so when I was thinking about who'd be a great person to have this discussion with, I reflected back on the fact that you and I have recently talked about some kind of decisions you were making, and some options you were evaluating and how you had gone and consultants and mentors, how you had also been mentoring yourself and providing mentorship in some recent roles. And I thought, man, Melissa would be a great person to discuss this with. Well, thank you. So tell us a little bit about yourself, like just, you know a bit about the Melissa origin story, just so we have some context about who we're talking to.

Melissa Olivadoti 2:41

Sure. Well, I started out as we met a long time ago. So for the listener, I've known Erica since college. So yeah. And

Erica D'Eramo 2:51

We Are!

Melissa Olivadoti 2:52

Yeah, and it's been, it's been a while, but I'd say you know, I got a PhD when I was in my PhD didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And I got out and I just took a job with a pharma company. And this is where the mentorship journey starts. Because when I was in this job for this pharma company was fine. You know, it was stretching my wings a little bit in publications, and someone turned me who I knew and trusted. And they said, You know, I think it'd be really good in this type of role. Because you have that relationship with people you like to chat about data. And this person pointed me to that role and completely changed the trajectory of my whole entire career with just that single mentorship moment. And with that, I realized, you know, there's without this person, I would have never known about that role, it would have known or notable after that role, I wouldn't have known that that was something I could do. And so that's when I joined kind of field Medical Affairs and then worked my way up from there. And throughout my career, I have both been a mentee by people who knew more than me as well, you know, people who are above me as well as people on my team who either had more experience or had different types of experience, maybe different education. And then, you know, once I started leading or being a senior in my role, I was mentoring other people or even people who hadn't broken into my industry yet and doing some kind of pro bono helpful volunteer work with people that were kind and helping them get the step up that I never had. So it's it's been a running thing going through my career. So I've worked my way up through the field and into headquarters. And now I work as you mentioned, I work as a consultant kind of helping and mentoring others in this space of medical affairs and pharma and biotech. And so it's kind of naturally part of my role now as well explaining how things work and how to best best practices and things like that. That's a little bit of background.

Erica D'Eramo 4:57

Yeah. So I How would you say? I mean, you kind of you've already alluded to the fact that it was sort of pivotal in your career path. What are some of the ways that you feel like mentorship has shown up either as a mentor or or as a mentee, as you've grown in your career, like maybe how has it changed?

Melissa Olivadoti 5:19

I think some of it has been, you know, organizationally based, so people who were training me or, you know, one of my long standing mentors, was a senior in the position I was in, I was brand new in that position where that person drove me to so I was medical science liaison. And I keep in touch with him to this day, because he taught me so much and he was so kind hearted. And he was amazing at what he did, and gave me those skills, but also was very patient with me. So some of it has been just naturally organic through the organization. So assigned versus others. And I have some bosses that I still keep in touch with as well, that, you know, have been very generous giving me advice on career choices and career moves and, and share their experiences. But I've also had mentorship within my teams, like I said, where people have different experiences. And we share that back and forth. So it's like, kind of parallel or, you know, horizontal, however, we want to say in the same team mentorship, sharing skills and sharing knowledge that just by way of naturally different experiences, the way we've gone up through education, or been in different areas. And then, you know, is well, I've had people in organizations where I've had to figure something out. And I just contact somebody who maybe has experienced and all of a sudden, I have someone who is able to give me different, different advice on not just that project, but even like office politics, or you know, anything where they like, you know, you may want to think about this, or you may want to do that differently. And so some of it is organic, and I find people in different ways done no problem asking for help. And I tend to do things creatively. And I tend to like, seek out challenges. So I end up in spaces where I'm asking for help. And, you know, groveling, if you will. Sometimes, please help me!

Erica D'Eramo 7:18

Hey, humility is powerful.

Melissa Olivadoti 7:21

And end up with kind of, you know, kitty corner mentors, if you will, that they're not anywhere related to my field of study or field of work, but they helped me in many different ways. And some of those people are very powerful too, because you can learn life skills from them, you can learn lots of different things from them, as well.

Erica D'Eramo 7:44

So, um one of my questions I was going to ask you is like, what are some of the different types of mentorship relationships that you've seen, and you've already covered a few of those. So you've mentioned kind of what we typically picture as the traditional, right, somebody more senior who has more knowledge in an area. But you also mentioned what is sometimes referred to as like peer mentorship, or somebody who's maybe not more senior than you, but they are in sort of your level, whatever that means, right? Level, knowledge wise level, age wise level, seniority wise. And then you've also kind of talked about the, the, like tactical mentoring around maybe technical issues, or that problem solving type of framework, which can then expand into or shift into that, like higher level, sort of career based, more strategic framework. So covered a lot of ground there, what are what are we missing any that we're missing?

Melissa Olivadoti 8:44

Um, I think those are the big ones that I can think of. I mean, there's always your mentors outside of your organization that take that objective view, you can describe things and they can give you perspective, and you know, they're completely outside of even your field of study. Friends, family members, you know, that have a unique way of looking at things that can completely change your perspective on things as well. So I find that it's very helpful to have somebody that's not in my current field of study or area at all, take a unique look at it. Because that can really change things I happen. Like my husband is great at that, because he's an engineer. And so he just naturally looks at things differently than the way I do. And it's very useful to have that as a perspective as well. So I can count him as one of my mentors.

Erica D'Eramo 9:42

So it's good to have one of us engineers around. I think this is some of what you've mentioned is why mentorship is so near and dear to our hearts at Two Piers because it really helps with, on two, on two fronts. I guess. There's the one aren't around the diversity that we're talking about this access to diverse thinking to different ways of viewing issues to different backgrounds, different ways our brains work. And so Mentoring can really tap into that. And provide that. It also, I think, helps to close some of the opportunity gaps that we've seen in organizations where, you know, we always see like, women's groups might have mentorship groups, right. And so we pair people with someone who's traversed similar challenges and can give insights that way. But one of the most powerful uses I've seen of mentorship is actually what we call reverse mentorship. Where somebody who has like a totally different background, like you mentioned, somebody who has like, maybe not even in your same function, different lived experiences, maybe different ethnicity, orientation, whatever is paired with someone who then they can learn from somebody, like more senior gets paired with somebody younger, and then they tap into that knowledge that maybe they're losing a bit, you know, a bit of access to just due to their age, and their seniority. And power differential. So, so I, I love the concept of mentorship. I just think in some of these ways. It's underutilized. So let's talk about that a little bit. Where do you see? Well, before we talk about where it's underutilized, let's talk about what you see as being sort of the hallmarks of a successful mentor relationship.

Melissa Olivadoti 11:41

I think there are some key aspects that are crucial. Because when you look at mentorship, there are there tend to be two types of people that are drawn to it. One is the helpers, right? People who want to share back what they know. And even have a good relationship with the person because you can even as a mentor, you can be a mentee as well, you can learn as well as share. But so you want to have someone who's service oriented, who's who's looking out for the person who understands their values. What's a listen? What are you looking to learn? What do you want to know what from my experience will be useful? How can we work through things together? How can we make opportunities for you? How can we make things happen for you, so not only understand they're, like, take the time to understand their values, understand what matters to them, and connect on a personal level. But because the other type of person that tends to be drawn to mentorship is the person that is a little bit too power hungry, or just wants to share and wants to share and wants to share? And yes, yes, you kind of have to be careful about who you choose as a mentor, because it really should be a two way street, you should both be learning, let's face it, and they should have your interests at heart. It's not all about them. And about them wanting to share their experiences and basically dictate their life story. It should be a sharing experience, it should be a back and forth, and an adjustment. They should be listening more than sharing. And that sharing should be useful. And if it's not useful than it should be adaptable, right? So if they're telling you something like this is not, this is not good for me, or this is not what I'm looking for, then it's Okay. And that information can be adjusted. Okay, if this is not going to work for you, maybe that right? Or they give you options, rather than just telling you this is what you should do. The best mentors give you options so that you can choose because really, it's up to the person and what they want to do. It's not up to the mentor to tell them what's right for them. Yeah, so I would say, you know, a good heart, somebody who wants to give back somebody who's listening as well as talking. And the learning goes both ways. Those are the things I would say.

Erica D'Eramo 13:59

A lot of what I'm hearing here is around this element of curiosity that I'm like a little bit obsessed with that like coming into these conversations with that true curiosity that you mentioned, of just asking lots of questions like understanding what is most important to the mentee and not making assumptions about that? Because we all come in with different sets of values. And what might be important to me as a mentor might be very different. And so the solution will look very different, or the path might look very different, and maintaining that curiosity. And I think one of the challenges there is how we sort of package mentorship up in our society or even in our in our organizations and culturally in our organizations, as you know, feeling like The mentor should have all the answers and that there's this pressure for the mentor to like have the answer. When in reality that pressure kind of ends up with people being on doing that broadcast mode, right, like just doing most of the talking. And then inevitably, and this is why I hate advice. It's like very, there's very specific times where like just straight up advice is useful. Usually, it's the questions that are more useful. But oftentimes, mentors feel like that's the role that they should be playing. It's just like giving their advice. And when it doesn't land, well, with the mentee, then either the mentor gets offended, because they feel like "Well, you asked for my advice, I gave it to you. And now you don't want to take it," right like that. That typical dynamic, or the mentee doesn't tell the mentor, and they just say like, "Oh, thanks," right, but they don't use it. Or they don't want to say all the reasons that like "I've tried that," or "that's not going to work here," or whatever, you end up on sort of the backfoot. And I feel like that's where it can kind of fall apart. So the opposite of that, that you've described is like, curiosity, values, and why are you there? Right? Is it to gather on voice heard? Or is it to ask questions to be useful?

Melissa Olivadoti 16:09

Yeah. And to know that some mentors may come into your life for a single issue, or a single comment, and change your trip to trajectory, or they may be a long term relationship, where you pop in every six months to a year, or you're connected on a social media, and you keep up with them that way. But they're there for you. Both ways when needed.

Erica D'Eramo 16:33

Yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 16:33

And there's, there's no judgement, right? It's online, we've heard from you in six months, it's it's like that friend that you go back to, and you just pick up where you left off? And by nature, curiosity, should lack judgment.

Erica D'Eramo 16:48

Yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 16:49

So I think being curious means that, you know, you're not going to take offense, if somebody doesn't take your take, your perspective is theirs, everybody's different. You're just gonna give them perspective, and then let them take it and run with it for what makes sense for them. So lack of judgment, increasing curiosity, ability to come and go know that they're not going to be there, you know, they may be there for one thing, or multiple things. And tip, you can be, you know, as long as it's not assigned, you can be picky, and who your mentors are and what you take from them. And yeah, if it's a mentor that only wants to talk at you, well, if you're going to mentor somebody else know that that's not your style. You just learn from them, too.

Erica D'Eramo 17:38

Yeah, I mean, it is tough when is assigned, right? Like navigating that. Yeah, that's, that's why I think it's important for us to sort of get the word out to mentors who maybe have either never gotten candid feedback from a mentee, or are new to mentoring and just feel that pressure to kind of like, list off a bunch of advice that somebody should do and don't, don't really know. So yeah, putting yourself in those shoes can be really powerful. Because we've all been there. Right? We've all had the person give a lot of advice, that was not applicable at all.

Melissa Olivadoti 18:16

And some of our best teachers, are the mentors are poor mentors, because we know what not to do, right?

Erica D'Eramo 18:23

Yeah, yes. Yeah, that's true.

Melissa Olivadoti 18:25

Very strong life lessons there.

Erica D'Eramo 18:26

I mean, I think too, you mentioned like, the type of situation that someone is mentoring on can change over time. And like, if you have somebody who's providing technical mentorship, you know, in those elements, I think that where it's very specific expertise, the situation has been encountered before, it's like a puzzle or problem that's trying to be solved. Advice is different. Like, it's, it's Okay to take that expertise, if you understand the situation. And some of those mentors who are really good at solving the technical problems and supporting you in that realm might not be transferable to the "what job should I take next?" Or "how should I manage this conflict with my manager?" type of conversations?

Melissa Olivadoti 19:15

Absolutely. You know, you can have people who are good at the technical, unless the answer is "well, we've always done it this way." Unless there's a reason for doing it this way.

Erica D'Eramo 19:27

Lack of curiosity again. Yeah,

Melissa Olivadoti 19:29

I mean, it can be hard to find someone who can do both. I have found those unicorns who can teach you how to do something, but also give you life lessons, but there they may not be one of the same. They may you know there may be that separate person who is not even in your line of sight at work or could be completely outside work, who helps you navigate in sticky situations and office politics or even in changes in behavior that you need to be successful in a certain situation or certain culture and when to stay when to go, I get those questions all the time. Those are hard questions. I'm not in their line of sight. I'm not in their organization, but I've been in lots of different organizations. And, and so I tend to get a lot of those questions because I can connect with values. But, you know, technical differs so much that it definitely helps to have somebody like a, someone who has been there, done that for that. So yeah, definitely can be the same person if you're lucky. But a lot of times it's different. It's different realms.

Erica D'Eramo 20:33

Yeah, that kind of makes me think too, then about the, the role of the mentee in this, and you know, what their expectations are coming into mentoring relationships. So tell me a little bit about that. Like, where have you seen that go well, and maybe where are some of the potential pitfalls?

Melissa Olivadoti 20:55

I think having mentees and being a mentee, you have to have a tiny bit of cynicism when you come in, because it's very easy to see someone as like being willing to help you. And then, you know, so there's a couple different things. One is to be wary of time, right? A lot of people may want to help you, but they need to, they have a lot of things that work, they have to do a lot of things at home. And so being, you know, cognizant of how much time you're taking up in someone's day is important. Don't ask for too much. But don't be you know, don't be scared to ask for things as well. And then, so someone who, you know, for mentees, if they understand their mentors, boundaries, both, you know, emotional like how much you want to share how much is Okay to share, as well as how much time you can take up in their day? How many questions you could ask what kind of topics are they're not necessarily good at or don't want to answer. But then also as a mentee, understanding if the person like we talked about, like, we kind of assume people are good, at least I do. I think you do, too. And we don't always realize that sometimes we go to people for mentorship, and we assume that what we're saying to them is going to be kept confidential and that they have our best interests at heart. But it's also important to note that sometimes some people, you know, even either naturally or under duress, they may use the information we share with them to either garner favor with others or, you know, share gossip or get ahead, we're thinking over sharing something with them to get you know, information, or maybe even that they would be a champion for us, when in reality, they're using that information covertly that could hurt harm us or just not help us in the long run. And so I think, understanding the type of person you're dealing with being careful about what you share, getting to know them first, before you kind of divulge a lot more, you know, kind of dip the toe in a little bit first and understand because we don't want to assume that, you know, the person has endless time. They'll keep everything confidential. They have our best interests at heart and they want to push us forward. You know, those are those are four things that we have to take stock of before we choose mentors.

Erica D'Eramo 23:18

Yeah. Or at least choose how we engage with them. Right? Yeah, especially in those situations where someone is assigned to you within your organization. And I think that that's why it's so important to have these diverse groups of mentors that you've mentioned, because it's great to have people within your organization who can provide very specific insight about the culture of the organization, the politics of the organization, pathways, opportunities, etc. But there is an inherent risk there. And I've even seen it go off the rails a little bit where someone thinks that they are acting on the best interests of their mentee by, you know, intervening or advocating for them in a way that the mentee did not necessarily want or wasn't, you know, didn't consent to. But somebody acted on their, quote unquote, behalf anyway. And so, you know, whether it's actively malicious, you know, passively unhelpful, or just like misguided, there is sometimes more risk involved when it's within your organization, and especially when it's in within your reporting line.

Melissa Olivadoti 24:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even something that the mentor may think is a very positive thing. I put you up for a job. Yeah, it's good. I have that happen to move across the United States and not see your family all that often. And it's, you know, again, it's that curiosity, that communication before putting someone up for job, go talk to them and be like, is this something that you're interested in? I can't make any I can't make any guarantees, but you know, like, it would seem to them and mentor because they're values may be different than that would be the experience of a lifetime. Absolutely no questions asked. But I think connecting making sure to connect with people not assuming that the men tour knows what the mentee wants, even if they discussed it. There may be things that are unsaid.

Erica D'Eramo 25:15

Yes.

Melissa Olivadoti 25:15

So making sure to communicate between the two people before advocating or you know, unless it's something need to discuss prior detail.

Erica D'Eramo 25:27

Yeah, consent is so important. Assumptions. Yeah, I actually did have that happen to me where a mentor put me up for a very technical role when I did not want to go further in my technical career, like side of my career, and they said, like, oh, but this is what you need right now. And, and I was managed in a managed move into that role, because they advocated on my behalf behind closed doors. And it made it very challenging for me to sort of undo that decision and, you know, strained a couple relationships there. But eventually, I managed to maneuver into another position, that was the best thing I could have done. Like, I'm so glad I ended up doing that. But it was just because like, we had different goals, right, what they assumed my goals were and my values and what was important to me was different than what was important to them. So yeah, it's that's a real, very real situation that happens to people. So I think, you know, one other thing I want to add, that I think maybe mentees don't realize sometimes is being really clear about what they want to get out of the relationship. I don't know how often I meet with a mentee and say like, "Okay, so how best can I support you? What are the areas you're looking for? Like? What are your goals out of this relationship? What are your goals in your career?" And they just sort of say, like, I just want advice. It's like, Okay, on what, like, how, how would you like life to be different between now and then. Because while they might feel like it's respectful to sort of leave it up to me to make that decision. It's a poor use of everyone's time, because, you know, I'm just taking a shot in the dark based on my own biases and culture and, you know, challenges about what's going to be most helpful for them. But really, I love it when a mentee comes to the engagement and is like, this is where I'm struggling. This is where I would love your insights. This is where I would love to know what you did if you experienced this, or, you know, what I'm not thinking of, and let's talk about XYZ during this meeting. I love that when a mentee comes with that kind of

Melissa Olivadoti 27:48

Yes,

Erica D'Eramo 27:49

like insight, but

Melissa Olivadoti 27:49

that can be rare, right? Because yeah, times people don't know what they don't know. And especially in new and deer in the headlights. I think sometimes it's helpful for mentees to before they approach their mentors to sit down and do that introspection, because they may not they may be so overwhelmed. They may not know what to ask to and and especially if you're new to industry and your job, or or you're new to the position, you just say I'm so lost, I don't even know. And so sometimes, you know, if they're not able to do that introspection is just so overwhelming. Sometimes the mentor can perhaps break it down. Is it this? Is it that yeah, let's let's drill down a little bit like why are you feeling so overwhelmed? Let's let's take chunks of the job. Are you feeling isolated? Where you're working with the team, but you're on your own and your own territory? Are you feeling frustrated? Because the job is not what you expected? When you started? You know, like, there's certain things that we know from our experience, maybe if it's in the same career, we've been in that same situation? Could it be this? No. Could it be that No. But as long as there's that curiosity in the questions and getting down to the heart of what's bothering that person, we can you know, you don't have to be their therapist, per se. But you can dig a little bit ask probing questions about Okay, what is it like we understand your deer in the headlights? What is your oncoming train? What is your car that's causing you to feel like this? And what kind of make and model is it? How fast is it coming? That kind of thing? So we can ask questions to bring that about, even if they're even if they're so overwhelmed.

Erica D'Eramo 29:32

Yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 29:33

If they haven't dealt with it before.

Erica D'Eramo 29:35

I love that stance. And I think that that is kind of what makes the difference between a great mentor and somebody who's still developing as a mentor is approaching that kind of empty space with questions instead of filling that empty space with a list of, "Okay, well, here's what you should do, then, like, have you thought," you know, and sometimes advice comes across this question. It's like, "well, have you thought about this and have you thought about that?" But I think We're getting to the heart of like, what's really going on here for you. And it might be that everything is actually fine. Especially because we don't necessarily like the start of a mentorship relationship is usually fairly arbitrary. In terms of what's going on in your life, it's just because, you know, the quarter started. And so the mentorship program ramped up again. Or you met somebody and meshed with them. And so you connected as a mentor. But it doesn't mean that anything is challenging for you at the moment, and you're sort of like establishing care, you know, like establishing that relationship, so that it's there when the challenges come. And I think that that's Okay to say is like, "things are actually Okay, right now, like, I would love to just hear about your experience, or just establish a relationship between us and get to know each other. So that when the thing when the challenges do come, you know, we're not starting from scratch." But sometimes I find that mentees feel like pressure to like, think of a problem, when, you know, when it's Okay, if everything's fine, right?

Melissa Olivadoti 31:08

Absolutely. And and I find the best relationships tend to go both ways. And it's not always, you know, for instance, if you have somebody at work, who has more experience than you, and in the work, and you get garner a lot of help from that, but you have something completely on the side. Like for me, it's basic rescue animal care. And so I get from my mentee, or mentors, I get a lot of questions about animal care, what do I do for this? Or I have, you know, just I'm looking to rescue, what kind of animal do I look for. So the mentorship can go both ways, for people who have unique set of skills, if you will, if they're, and it doesn't necessarily have to be directed towards the workplace, it can be different life skills, or different types of activities, where you're garnering information from the same two people, and you can flip the hierarchy in, like, who has the information that is useful.

Erica D'Eramo 32:09

I love the experience. I love that I think that really helps to sort of like flatten that power differential a little bit when it can more easily go both will go both ways. And I, I've had experiences with mentors, where I've sort of said, you know, if "I realize this may seem like a strange offer, but if you ever know of a situation where I can provide insight, or I can provide a connection, please do not hesitate, because I would love to do that." And making sure that I keep my mentors in mind when I like see an article that relates to their field of research or their field of expertise. And just saying like, "Hey, I thought of you when I read this not sure if it would be of interest?" Because I think that it really should just it always should be a two way interaction, right? There's the inherent joy that a lot of us as mentors get out of seeing somebody thrive out of seeing, you know, somebody be supported. But there are other ways that it can go both ways, too.

Melissa Olivadoti 33:13

Absolutely. I mean, I've helped mentors get jobs, I mean, that the nice thing about being a mentee that you gain gained valuable information, I make sure to go on LinkedIn and write recommendations, because it's not an easy skill. And I've I've connected them to mutual connections that have helped them get opportunities to get jobs, because they feel that that's important too, you been downstream of this person, and you know, what they're like, and I feel like, you know, we tend to request referrals and things from people who are, you know, similar on our same level or above us, but I personally for me, when I'm hiring, if somebody tells me that someone below them gained a lot from them, that tells me a lot about their character.

Erica D'Eramo 33:59

Yeah, yeah. That way, too. Yeah, that's another good perspective to keep in mind from both a mentor and a mentee purse, like side of things, that all of this is building your network, it's all built, you know, it's every person we have these positive interactions with, even if you feel like that person is less experienced than you is maybe has a smaller network than you. You never know how they might support you going forward or how they might be the connection to that next opportunity. Not that we should make this transactional. But it's it's good to remember.

Melissa Olivadoti 34:36

It's useful though. Yeah, help comes in, in a variety of ways.

Erica D'Eramo 34:40

Yeah, absolutely. So I love talking about myths and misconceptions. And so we were chatting about this a little bit in terms of mentoring. What are some that come to mind for you, if any?

Melissa Olivadoti 34:57

You know, one is that the mentor is always older and more experienced. Yeah, some of my best mentors are 20 years, my junior and just starting out, because they have so much more knowledge than I do. I mean, it could be technology, it could be cultural, it could be diversity related. And I can gain a lot from their perspective, especially when you've been in this in been in an industry for 20 plus years, something like that. And you come in and you keep doing a lot of the same things. And you have somebody who's creative and says, what about this. And that can be lightbulb moments, those can be lightbulb moments if you pay attention, right. And sometimes it's like, well, unfortunately, we do this because X, Y and Z. But that doesn't mean that you can completely throw the baby out with the bathwater, you have to understand that, you know, there's a reason that they're asking this question, and use that creativity and that kind of newness, to your advantage and learn from that. So that's, that's a myth. And a misconception. I think we talked about another one, which is that my mentor is always going to have my best interests at heart. You can be a little bit cautious about that?

Erica D'Eramo 36:16

Yes.

Melissa Olivadoti 36:16

I know, I got burned, I got burned with that in in one of my positions, and I shared some confidential information to try and help get help with a kind of political matter and at work and turned out that person was sharing information back. But turning it a little bit sideways. And it it really affected me. So I think, you know, knowing just being a little wary, choosing your mentors wisely.

Erica D'Eramo 36:47

Yeah, that's a big one. I mean, I think we've talked about another one, which is that that mentoring only benefits the mentee, I think a lot of people see this as just like a philanthropic effort on behalf of the mentor, to benefit the mentee. But really, just by engaging in the mentorship relationship, like you, as a mentor are developing, you're getting access to insights and perspectives, you're understanding what other people in the organization or in the industry, or, you know, in a different generation, perhaps or different fields are thinking, what's on their mind, what challenges are facing them. That is like, hugely valuable. And, and I think that mentees should know as well, that while they shouldn't take their mentor for granted that most mentors are doing, are engaging in that because they enjoy it. And so they don't need to feel guilty either about it that this is like a huge, huge, lopsided effort. Most of us enjoy, as long as our time is used wisely, right, like respectfully, and that I think people come prepared and ready to like, have a real conversation, then. Yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 38:04

Yeah. And some people who are service oriented really enjoy seeing good people get good mentorship and excel in their career, right, like that feels really good to be able to make a difference in someone's life, and to see them see a good person succeed. And put time into that. And, you know, there is a lot of, it gives you purpose, right? The knowledge that you have is just not sitting in your brain. It's gonna go and help someone else and help them move forward as well.

Erica D'Eramo 38:40

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the engineer in me loves to see more efficiency in the like, mistakes that I made, right? Like, here, let's not you don't have to make that mistake. Again, I'll tell you what happened for me, you can make that, maybe you have to make that mistake again. Sometimes we just got to make the mistake. But at least we're recycling the pain or the effort and putting it to good use so that somebody else might have a faster, a faster learning curve, and hopefully, reach some of these opportunities that, you know, generation by generation are getting more accessible.

Melissa Olivadoti 39:18

Absolutely. I think one thing that was told to me a long time ago, you know, what, what's our purpose in life, our purpose in life is to take our skills and our knowledge and share that with the world. And so one of the ways we can do that is like you said, make things easier, what did I not have that could benefit someone, I mean, simple things like the interview process, when I was becoming a medical science liaison, which is like kind of entry level to my field, and what that looks like and how to create my resume so that it pops for recruiters and how to talk to a recruiter. These are things that don't take much time to imbibe on someone else, but they make all the difference in breaking in, because it can be very difficult it can be or very hard to, you know, make your skills, basically applicable to the job because it's a new area, and you don't have experience until you have experience. And so to be able to give those, those tips and tricks to someone who is ready and raring to go, and they will be great in the job, they just need to know how to get there. And to see them have that feedback. Like I got it, I got an offer, or I got another interview and got a good feedback like that. I wish I had that because it just didn't exist back when I was starting out. And so if I can do that, for someone else, it gives, it brings me a lot of joy. And it makes me feel like I have purpose.

Erica D'Eramo 40:47

Yeah. Yeah, for me, it's like the, you know, the woman who goes offshore for the first time and knows what they should pack in that bag that maybe the men wouldn't have told her to pack in the bag, or like, bring your flip flops, bring extra tampons, you know,

Melissa Olivadoti 41:05

All the necessities.

Erica D'Eramo 41:06

All the necessities for when the helicopter can't make it out to you. And you're stuck out there for an extra week. So yeah, I think there are things that just gives you that immediate satisfaction as a mentor. And then there's the longer term relationship way where you see somebody sort of evolve and grow over time and like, grab those opportunities, make good use of them. And you see that, that like growth and development over time can be really rewarding as well. So what would you say, in your perspective, because you've worked with a variety of different organizations, you've mentioned that, have you seen anything, in terms of where companies do well, or organizations do well, in terms of fostering mentorship? Or maybe where it's not gone well?

Melissa Olivadoti 41:59

I would say that, largely, the organizations I've worked with, have done a good job, a lot of them have not assigned mentors, which I think is a missed opportunity. Then again, people find them. So but the best organization, I have to have to give it to Pfizer. They are huge. And yet, one of the things that they do, and I'm not sure now, it's been a while since I've been there, so I'm not sure if they still do this, they give people the opportunity to go outside their normal line of sight for six months, you can apply. And it's a real program where you can try out another job for six months, and you have a mentor that is uniquely situated in that area, a lot of experience service oriented and you have to interview to become a mentor. And then that person, luckily gets the extra help gets the extra headcount, and your organization has to sign off on you moving. But it's a six month period that you can try something out and you have a unique experience where it's outside of your normal element. And you have a mentor that is already there. And situated and you set goals before when you're applying for the program. And it is I've never seen it anywhere else. And and I've been at quite a few companies moving around with a husband in the military that happens. And so that mentorship, the organized way to organize the way it's set up the goals, the way the mentorship is applied. And the skills that are garnered are just bar none and I've seen people go into it, and they either bring back that knowledge that helps their current organization, or they can even stay within the company to go into that new area and stay in that area. And then now they have a variety of experiences that really makes them a unique person. And so that just shows that organizational awareness of like keeping good people who have an interest in expanding and looking for mentorship within the organization. And also making sure that mentor is high quality before they assign them. So I have to I gotta I gotta hand it to Pfizer on that one.

Erica D'Eramo 44:12

You know, you reminded me that I missed a myth or misconception at least, which is that organizations can like set it and forget it in terms of mentorship programs, and just say like, we're going to do a mentorship program, and you can sign up to be a mentor and you can sign up to be a mentee, and then we're just going to randomly assign people and leave it at that. I think you can do that. I'm not saying it won't be, it's probably better than nothing. But what you described is really like a gold standard in terms of screening the mentors, making sure that the mentors are properly prepared, and probably trained or have resources or materials that help them navigate that, that there are some expectations on both sides from a mentee and a mentor perspective, and that there's some structure around goals. pools and what this looks like, and that it's really clear how it benefits the organization so that it's understood why you're investing the time and energy. And maybe, you know, it's inconvenient in some ways, or it has other costs or time associated with it. But it's clear how the organization as a whole benefits, so people are bought into it.

Melissa Olivadoti 45:26

Absolutely. I think anytime that you create something where you're just assigning people, without buy-in or without a double check, if they are the right type of personality, or even have enough time, you're setting things up for failure. I mean, there might be, you know, situations where it works out. But a lot of times someone is assigned a mentor, and they come in at thinking, "Oh, I'm gonna get good information." And that person is just so busy, or they're just not the mentorship type. And it can create actually a negative relationship that makes things harder, because there's expectations from the both the employer and the mentee. And now that's even more stress on that person. So I definitely think anytime you do mentorship, it's always useful to have a be volunteer or carve out time in that person's schedule, make sure that the right type of person to do that type of activity.

Erica D'Eramo 46:23

Yeah, I It's interesting, because I think there are organizations or even managers who say to their employees, like, "I want you to take on a mentee like this as part of your assignment for the year." And while I can understand why it might be valuable for that person's development, I think it needs to be clear what you're hoping that mentor will get out of that experience and what success looks like for them rather than just check a box. Right. And I think that sometimes I've seen it incorporated in like diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, where there'll be targets around, you know, X number of people will take on mentees, and I think is really well intentioned. And it can have unintended consequences. Because if you end up with somebody who doesn't want to be there, or doesn't have that skill set, then it's not going to go, it's not going to go well for anybody.

Melissa Olivadoti 47:20

I agree with that. I would say that something that's truly volunteer based where it requires a certain relationship between two people having metrics around it is just never it's not something that is likely to be successful overall.

Erica D'Eramo 47:41

Yeah, it's, I almost feel like it's too bad. There can't be like speed dating from Ettore relationships. Or like some sort of app that matches people. I mean, there probably is actually I'm sure there is but and I know that some programs do put a lot of time and effort into matching people correctly. But there's a lot to be said for chemistry. And sometimes you don't know chemistry until you have your first your first meeting. And we, you kind of touched on something that we didn't mention previously, which is the difference between a mentor and a sponsor. And so that might be another misconception that exists. Maybe more on the mentee side of things, too. What is your experience been in terms of mentors versus sponsors?

Melissa Olivadoti 48:30

You know, I think mentors have your interests at heart, they want to advance your career just naturally, you know, sponsors. We have to be careful in thinking that everyone has like we talked about this, right? Not everyone has your true interests at heart. And so just because someone is helping you with issues or problems with they will naturally push you forward for things or act on your behalf or put you up for things. Sometimes they're just the advice source. And that's Okay. You can't always assume that they're going to be your advocate and be that loud advocate for you. And that's Okay. Not everybody needs to. But also, you know, sometimes you'll know, after the fact if they are advocate an advocate versus just giving you advice.

Erica D'Eramo 49:24

Yeah, I think a lot of times mentors will turn into sponsors over time, once that trust is gained once they understand your skill set more and kind of have seen a track record and they'll be more willing to put their skin on the line is that I don't know if that's a real thing. But they're more willing to kind of take some risk on your behalf by putting their social or organizational capital behind you. But I think sometimes mentees don't necessarily know that upfront that not every mentor is going to be a sponsor and so it can set up is sort of a tricky relationship in the beginning of a mentee comes into it with the mentality of like, so are you know, how are you going to help me find my next job? Or like, Who are you going to put me in touch with? And it can feel either like a letdown when the mentee when the mentor is like, "that's not. I'm not planning on doing that." Or the mentor can sometimes be taken aback like, "I don't even know you yet, why would I, why would I, you know, back you in, in something?" So, I guess my point being that, it will often happen that a mentor will become a sponsor, but it's almost something that like, needs to be earned over time, in many cases, and to just put in that investment.

Melissa Olivadoti 50:44

Earned over time, and I also think it depends on the type of person who is a mentor. Yeah, and the opportunities that are coming up, right, they, they may realize that opportunities are just not right for you, or may not think you're in that right space, to put you up for something. And so just opening the the lines of communication and talking to each other about what you're ready for, what you're open towards, or even the mentor talking to the mentee to say, this is something that would even be in your realm, or would you want this, but knowing that not everybody is going to be that person in your corner to push you ahead. And that's Okay. You just have to know, you just have to find those people. And, you know, and know that they're not all one in the same.

Erica D'Eramo 51:31

I think mentors too, can also set some expectations when encountered with that. I don't think it serves anyone to kind of leave that as an, as a misunderstanding in the relationship. And I think it's Okay, for mentors to say like, "This is how I can support you. And this is where I can help you. And this is where I'm not able to help you right now. Or at least not in this capacity." So, yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 51:55

Absolutely. I mean, I recently went out on my own as a consultant. And I had, you know, when I shared that news with some of my mentors, they were excited for me, and they said, "Oh, I wish I had something for you right now." And it's like, "It's Okay. I'm not looking for business. purposes at this moment, I'm not I'm not touting that's not why I'm contacting you." But I think like you said, keeping those lines open, and knowing that, "oh, I just don't have anything for you either." "That's Okay. That's not you know, I'm not looking for that. I just want to share the good news."

Erica D'Eramo 52:26

Yeah.

Melissa Olivadoti 52:27

And keeping touch with people is really important too, because I know that sometimes it can be life can get busy. But especially with lifelong mentors, it's always good to drop a line to say hello, because then you're connecting between humans and not necessarily just when you need help. Really, really important keeping that relationship going so that you're not just pulling time from that person when you need some assistance.

Erica D'Eramo 52:51

I completely agree. Yeah. And even connecting people, right? Like, hey, I thought of this person. And I feel like you two would get along and putting people in touch that way. And it just continues to keep that relationship alive and invest in it. Right? You're like feeding the relationship over time. And yeah, I totally agree. So thank you so much, Melissa, for all of this wisdom, like we've really covered a lot of ground. I'm curious if you have sort of one key takeaway that you want listeners to, to walk away from this episode with what might that be?

Melissa Olivadoti 53:29

Oh, that's a tough one, I would say, for mentorship. I think you hit the nail on the head, which is Be curious, right? Whether that's mentees or mentors, if you're a mentee seeking out help, sometimes it can be hard to find that right person. But when you do it can, it can change everything, either in that instance, or even across your lifespan. Mentors: keep it as judgment free as you can. And just be curious, just ask questions. And be willing to learn yourself. Even if you're a mentor, there's always something to learn from the person you're talking to. So just keep learning both ways, and share your experiences and purpose with others.

Erica D'Eramo 54:16

I love that. Thank you.

Melissa Olivadoti 54:18

Thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 54:20

So I normally ask each guest, you know, like if people want to get in touch and work with you, how would they go about doing that? And most of our guests are like doing something in the realm of coaching or in this area. So for you, you have a fairly specific skill set or a fairly specific like audience that you work with. But it's kind of ironic, because I think what you do is really tied into mentoring in a way it's sort of parallel. So tell me a little bit about that as we kind of close out this episode.

Melissa Olivadoti 54:47

So one of the I mean, I mentor at multiple levels, levels one is to C suite people who know that they need someone in medical affairs to help get education out there or to pull information in to educate themselves about what they may not know about how clinicians work in the space about, you know, in a in a certain disease state or condition, what patients go through every day and how this new therapeutic can change things, for better or worse. And, as well, as you know, I do simple things like I build out teams, I interview people, I help them start new jobs, I build training programs to get them mentored into and keyed in into jobs they've never done before, and best practices. And so it goes from all the way to the tippy top and how to do things and how to pull in information or even giving them suggestions on what to do next, all the way down to starting, you know, helping people starting out.

Erica D'Eramo 55:50

Yeah, from strategic to tactical,

Melissa Olivadoti 55:53

Strategic to tactical, exactly. So it's pretty unique. And it's kind of why, you know, when I said I, I love mentorship, but I get to do it every day, because people I love sharing my opinion, come to me for my opinion and other have lots of experiences easier to justify. And but being able to share something with someone that makes them and or their technology successful is just a huge rush for me. And yet, I love being able to help others.

Erica D'Eramo 56:24

Well, you often share stuff on LinkedIn that is not just specific to your industry, but sort of best practices, whether that's for onboarding, finding people to work with, or just like managing team dynamics. And so we'll be linking to your LinkedIn in the show notes. And yeah, anyone who either wants to work with Melissa or connect with Melissa can find how to do that in the shownotes are on our website.

Melissa Olivadoti 56:50

Thank you so much, Erica. It's been a pleasure.

Erica D'Eramo 56:52

Yeah. Thanks for joining us. And for anyone looking for a recap of this episode or the transcript. You can find that at twopiersconsulting.com and we look forward to seeing you next episode.